Shop services XJR Transmission and prop shaft falls off 30 miles later!?!?
#21
I think the better evidence will be the condition of the shaft and driivetrain everywhere else. If you look at the photos you'll see the car is exceptionally clean underneath. (It is after all a Southern California car that almost never sees rain and has never seen snow that just turned 70k the week this happened.)
Plus there is human common sense here. The car is driven 70k miles. As Jaguar puts it, if there was a manufacturing defect in the shaft that would result in that sort of failure it would have happened sooner. Moreover, I have driven the car quickly at times. However, after getting the car back I was mostly driving in traffic and there was no driving it quickly and thus no usage of its 400 pounds of torque.....and this happened when rolling away with part throttle on a green light.
It did not happen over 11 years....only happened 30 miles after picking it up from the shop....where they replaced the rear plug on the transmission....inches from where the shaft failed.
Another thing the Jaguar service manager noted was, if there was an issue with the shaft, such that it would fail, then why didn't the shop notice this?
So far every Jaguar parts specialist, tech and service manager (now 3 different ones) all say it was not a manufacturing defect and that the shop likely put a crease in the shaft...probably with a pry bar.
#22
ExcelsiorZ,
That is truly distressing!
The only possibility I can think of is that the shop used a jack on, or otherwise dented the propshaft while doing your pan/sleeve swap.
If they removed the trans/rear engine mount, perhaps the mechanic felt he needed to support the assembly and chose the propshaft to locate his jack. It would be worth very carefully inspecting the propshaft for any signs that this is what occurred, and if so, insisting the shop replace your shaft at no cost to you.
That is truly distressing!
The only possibility I can think of is that the shop used a jack on, or otherwise dented the propshaft while doing your pan/sleeve swap.
If they removed the trans/rear engine mount, perhaps the mechanic felt he needed to support the assembly and chose the propshaft to locate his jack. It would be worth very carefully inspecting the propshaft for any signs that this is what occurred, and if so, insisting the shop replace your shaft at no cost to you.
#23
Everyone is jumping to conclusions here. It may be the shop's fault, or maybe not.
Take some pics of the drive side stub that are close up and in focus. I spent 7 years investigating aircraft accidents and have a degree in material engineering. I will look the pics over and let you know what I see.
If the shop is at fault, the evidence of a dent or damage will be on the broken pieces. If it is the result of high cycle fatigue...and not the shop's fault, then that evidence will also be there.
When you ask Jag...you are asking for an engineering assessment from customer service reps. They have no idea what happened and are trained not to ever admit fault. Asking a mechanic at the shop is only little better. They are likely only high school grads and have little experience other than replacing broken parts.
Off hand I see nothing abnormal about the material used in the shaft. That is how all driveshafts are all made...you just don't get to see how thin they are until they break.
Take some pics of the drive side stub that are close up and in focus. I spent 7 years investigating aircraft accidents and have a degree in material engineering. I will look the pics over and let you know what I see.
If the shop is at fault, the evidence of a dent or damage will be on the broken pieces. If it is the result of high cycle fatigue...and not the shop's fault, then that evidence will also be there.
When you ask Jag...you are asking for an engineering assessment from customer service reps. They have no idea what happened and are trained not to ever admit fault. Asking a mechanic at the shop is only little better. They are likely only high school grads and have little experience other than replacing broken parts.
Off hand I see nothing abnormal about the material used in the shaft. That is how all driveshafts are all made...you just don't get to see how thin they are until they break.
At the end of the day I think this is pretty darn obvious. If I'd taken the car from the shop and gone to the track or drag racing I could understand a driveshaft failure. But driving a pristine XJ 30 miles and having the shaft rip in two while puttering away from a traffic light in LA traffic leads me to the rather obvious conclusion, a conclusion supported by Jaguar experts. Moreover, the fact that no one else on the forum has said they had a driveshaft failure on their 2004-2008 XJ is further evidence that these shafts are sufficient for their designed purpose.
#24
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Up to you if you want to take advantage of the offer or not.
#25
Wow. It would have to have been a significant dent, almost where the metal had to have cracked for this to occur. Even a dent, IMO, would have taken a long time to weaken and shear. My guess is they jacked the tranny/prop while the jack was under the prop itself. It may have been fine for a while, then the weight eventually creased/cracked the prop metal suddenly.
Or they had a jack that slipped and caught under the prop, creasing/cracking the shaft.
Or they had a jack that slipped and caught under the prop, creasing/cracking the shaft.
Last edited by VinnyT; 07-29-2015 at 02:33 PM.
#26
Now, for the record, you cannot believe anything that anyone paid by Jaguar says. I know for a fact that they are trained to deny anything that goes wrong with their cars. I've had them deny problems with parts that were later recalled.
Small damage or flaws can take millions of cycles to fail. Large damage can fail in one cycle. As long as you have the complete shaft, any creasing will be obvious.
Small damage or flaws can take millions of cycles to fail. Large damage can fail in one cycle. As long as you have the complete shaft, any creasing will be obvious.
#27
Now, for the record, you cannot believe anything that anyone paid by Jaguar says. I know for a fact that they are trained to deny anything that goes wrong with their cars. I've had them deny problems with parts that were later recalled.
Small damage or flaws can take millions of cycles to fail. Large damage can fail in one cycle. As long as you have the complete shaft, any creasing will be obvious.
Small damage or flaws can take millions of cycles to fail. Large damage can fail in one cycle. As long as you have the complete shaft, any creasing will be obvious.
what we have is that prop shaft failures have not been reported
on JF at all.
But, it is plain that offering an opinion based on verbal description
is not very reliable or even useful.
Photos are more reliable. Direct physical examination by a trained and
experienced investigator even more so.
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Don B (07-29-2015)
#28
Wow. It would have to have been a significant dent, almost where the metal had to have cracked for this to occur. Even a dent, IMO, would have taken a long time to weaken and shear. My guess is they jacked the tranny/prop while the jack was under the prop itself. It may have been fine for a while, then the weight eventually creased/cracked the prop metal suddenly.
Or they had a jack that slipped and caught under the prop, creasing/cracking the shaft.
Or they had a jack that slipped and caught under the prop, creasing/cracking the shaft.
I do agree however, that the subsequent inbalance of the shaft would be very noticable, unless speeds in those 30 miles were very slow.
Regardless, if the shop didn't do this (which is highly doubtful that they did NOT), they should have been astute enough to notice the shaft either having a massive dent or the like, being that they spent two flippen hours in that general area.
There should be evidence of the impact though, as if it's a clean break, with no heat distortion in color, the only other option is fatigue / sheer, but unless you were doing burnouts, that would be one helluva chance happening / time to buy a lottery ticket!
Sorry for the ordeal!
Jeff
#29
Now, if the shaft failed due to a crease, well then, the crease area would be destroyed by the ripped apart shaft. That's pretty obvious. If you grenade something its rather difficult to tell what it looked like before its torn apart. That is evident.
#30
I second your vote, something was either lifted up or dropped onto (meaning the weight of the car coming down a lift etc.).
I do agree however, that the subsequent inbalance of the shaft would be very noticable, unless speeds in those 30 miles were very slow.
Regardless, if the shop didn't do this (which is highly doubtful that they did NOT), they should have been astute enough to notice the shaft either having a massive dent or the like, being that they spent two flippen hours in that general area.
There should be evidence of the impact though, as if it's a clean break, with no heat distortion in color, the only other option is fatigue / sheer, but unless you were doing burnouts, that would be one helluva chance happening / time to buy a lottery ticket!
Sorry for the ordeal!
Jeff
I do agree however, that the subsequent inbalance of the shaft would be very noticable, unless speeds in those 30 miles were very slow.
Regardless, if the shop didn't do this (which is highly doubtful that they did NOT), they should have been astute enough to notice the shaft either having a massive dent or the like, being that they spent two flippen hours in that general area.
There should be evidence of the impact though, as if it's a clean break, with no heat distortion in color, the only other option is fatigue / sheer, but unless you were doing burnouts, that would be one helluva chance happening / time to buy a lottery ticket!
Sorry for the ordeal!
Jeff
#31
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Mikey, how would the damage be "quite evident?" I've since spoken with Service managers for three of the top Jaguar dealers in the U.S., guys with 26 years experience or more, and all three say the same thing. Shop error.
Now, if the shaft failed due to a crease, well then, the crease area would be destroyed by the ripped apart shaft. That's pretty obvious. If you grenade something its rather difficult to tell what it looked like before its torn apart. That is evident.
Now, if the shaft failed due to a crease, well then, the crease area would be destroyed by the ripped apart shaft. That's pretty obvious. If you grenade something its rather difficult to tell what it looked like before its torn apart. That is evident.
#32
#33
#34
The driveshaft broke and should be replaced.. HA!
That's a part of my life I'm glad is over, terra firma please.
Jeff
Last edited by Broken_Spanners; 07-31-2015 at 12:41 AM.
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ExcelsiorZ (07-31-2015)
#35
Sorry, your analogy makes no sense. The Service Managers and their senior techs they conferred with have Jaguar experience, not aircraft experience.
#36
Just to add to last posting, I spoke with ZF directly and on of their in house tech guys. His conclusion was the same as the three Jaguar experts.
#37
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#38
#39
#40
Actually small claims court is up to $6k+ in most states. You still have to show proof, though. So, the cost of the shaft AND and engineer assessment would still keep you in the small claims realm.
But, we are still getting ahead...PIC's!
I figure you know, but I still feel like I better point out...when the parts come off, do not allow the mechanic to start poking at the broken edges or try to fit them together. Messing with the broken edges WILL destroy any evidence one way or another. Fatigue beach marks can be almost microscopic, so just rubbing them together is enough to destroy them.
But, we are still getting ahead...PIC's!
I figure you know, but I still feel like I better point out...when the parts come off, do not allow the mechanic to start poking at the broken edges or try to fit them together. Messing with the broken edges WILL destroy any evidence one way or another. Fatigue beach marks can be almost microscopic, so just rubbing them together is enough to destroy them.
Last edited by cjd; 07-31-2015 at 03:03 PM.