It is. In error.

Why risk ONE busted bolt borking your engine?

I have been a fair hand at welding going back to the 1960's. Never worked at it full time, and here's how THAT goes.

THIS work is a speciality I never NEEDED to do often enough to get good at.
The rare times I've needed it, I hired a BETTER welder to do the do.

THAT welder had been formally trained, certificated, and at his trade anywhere from ten to forty years. He'd have lost count of how many hundreds if not thousands of times he had to prep a broken bolt for extraction with his welder.

Saved my buying anything I didn't already have as well.

It's ONE busted bolt. Not an industry for your nextest 'day job'.

"There was an old lady who swallowed a ....."

 

Ok, I agree with Thermite.

Yes, I was referring to a Flux-welder (Typical wire-feed machine with flux-filled wire (yes, like the Easy-Flux you referenced)). However, your very, very expensive engine is not the place to learn on. Even flux-wire welding tales time to master, and in such a confined space you are going to have to be careful not to cause havoc. It's a "looks easy on U-tube" but skill is required when approaching aluminum and mating surfaces that will really easily warp (water pump housing).

Also, make very, VERY sure that you have disconnected both battery terminals, and prevent stray welding voltage from confuddling electronic modules. And make sure welder connects ground clamp as close to the welded position (broken bolt) as possible.

Really, I honestly think you should call a pro. There are numerous services with mobile welding trucks who are only going to charge you a service charge (say $100-$150) and probably are very experienced doing just what you need, welded extraction. That's way less then half you would pay for welder, and you will be very grateful for a drama-free weld and go. I personally have two flux-wire welders, and have been repairing mowers, JD Gator, and neighbors bits and bobs for years, and I would still hesitate to approach your problem because of location.

 

Thanks, Bill!

Ah, the timeless debate: Welding vs. Wisdom!

Now, Bill, I know you've seen more spark plugs than a disco ball & at my puny age of 76 what I've seen pales by comparison! I suspect you have welding scars older than my oldest single malt!

But, my admirable senior, I see it not just as melting metal. It's about creating magic! A symphony of sparks! A ballet of molten steel! The sweet aroma of singed eyebrows! A truly bonding experience! When I strike that arc, I'm joining atoms, fusing dreams, and telling the universe, "Hey, I'm here, and I'm carrying the torch! All the while you sip that chamomile! While in true Descartian fashion, I shout, I weld, therefor I am!

In short, dear friend, life is too short to skip the sparks and age may rust rust the body but welding ignites the soul!

But only if this dang thing works!

 

Well, upon reflection, I'll call around to see if I can find somebody. Dang it!!

 

I was fortunate enough that Hong Kong had a surgeon of such calibre as to gift me with "bionic eyes" of 20/15 vision, L/R balance under a 1/4 diopter, night and glare optimized, "infinite" distance, no eyeglasses needed for long-distance driving, reading a dead-tree book or the fine print on a vitamin bottle. Human eye cannot BEND a plastic lense as it does the natural, flexible one. What we CAN do is shift it on the long axis, "ZUMAR" style. Takes a few seconds, but it beats fumbling for spectacles.


After long years slowly going blind with cataracts, delicate and ever-so-precious retinas back of them still in like-new condition?

Gave away my welding gear. Don't plan on ever striking arc at stick, MiG, nor TiG, ever again.

Too easy to hire far better craftsman.. and preserve enjoyment of wonderful 3D full-colour "bionic" vision.

Never did try to get that OTHER thing "rebuilt". Had my fair share. Maybe more-than. Anyhoo, Lord Chesterton had a fair point on the rest of that, "...expense is damnable", etc..

Lest we forget?
"Easy Outs" suck. Mainly because they depend on EXPANDING against the thin-walled cylinder a clearance drill has turned the busted bolt shank into.... so as to try to get a grip. Wedging the remains tighter, not looser. Bad mix if there is corrosion.

What works better is simpler.

"left hand" twist drills.

 

Hello,

I feel your pain, ran into the same issue last month on my super V8, the paper gasket for the pump had given up and there was a slow leak for a while. One of the bolts refused to move and my mistake was to put some strength on it and have it snap exactly like yours. The location of the break is bad, clearance is limited and the size of the bolt is so small, the appropriate extraction bits are not strong enough.

Unfortunately, all attempts including hiring a pro to come to house and try various attempts failed as well. The theory is that the seeping coolant for months locked the bolt pretty well. I had pb blaster going in daily for a week before the machinic arrived with the welder.

After breaking 2 extraction bits inside the bolt, attempts to weld with several iterations failed to remove the bolt. Any significant torque caused the welded nut to snap off without making the stuck bolt turn. It is really stuck in the block.

We ended up drilling a slightly wider but shorter whole and ran a thread chaser to create new threads. we also widened the water pump hole to make the bolt fit. I torqued all other bolts to specs but for the larger one did just enough to have it snug as I am afraid i will strip the new threads on the block.

I am in the processing of putting the car back together, waiting on parts as the classic issue of findings bulging houses and crumbling plastic radiator prompted ordering several new parts. If it still leaks, then I guess the only choice is a used block and engine removal.

Removing radiator fan gave enough clearance for the drill and welder. The radiator removal was the real challenge though. you will find several threads on the AC lines blocking the radiator from sliding out.

Will let you know the outcome in few weeks. I hope you have a better outcome than mine.

 

When I have had to drill out totally fubar'd steel bolts in aluminum (common issue on small engines in manifolds) and wound up with a stripped hole that was going to get tapped either way; I have had great luck with pressed in (ha, hammered in) inserts designed for aluminum. Search Aluminum Thread Insert.

If only manufacturers would spend the extra buck to design these into OEM. They are a godsend for aluminum surfaces with high torque needed for mating surfaces.

 

My favorit way to repair stripped threads is helicoills.
https://www.mcmaster.com/93914A355/
I use them every time I need to put threads in plastic or in 3D printed parts. I do that "by design"
Tools to cut threads and install them are expensive, but I have luxury using company tools for my 'government' projects. The issue is you have to have a clear axcess to workzone. Drilling hole on angle will get you in worse predicament then you're right now. Drilling too large of the hole, will open internal cavities that intended to stay closed.
@04Xjrsteve your car is not the type to learn how to weld!
At this point, @04Xjrsteve , if I would be you, I would clear as much room infront of water pump, including radiator; use 0.25", or better 0.5" steel plate, drill three holes in it, 6.3mm to tap thread for helicoil, use whater pump flange as template, two holes for the for good bolts and one for one that is brocken. Mark holes with your brand new spring punch and drill them on good drill press, not with hand held drill. if you do not have one find machine shop near by, ask in NAPA store, they will direct you to one that take clients from street.
When you have that jig, you will have a pilot drill bushing, that will guide drill bit reasonably accurately.
After all, taking radiator out is less timeconsuming and complicated than swapping engine blocks.
BTW, if you bring whater pump cover to machine shop, they will make drill guide for you, and if they have wireEDM capability, they can make it even out of tool steel, so drill will stay straight.

From what you discribing, Steeve, sounds like you have not taken radiator fan out... It could be that if you remove radiator fan, you are going to have enough room to install jig described above and use your angle drill to drill out the remnance of that bolt. Just make note how long hole should be... Mark it on drill bit, so you will not make deeper hole than intended.

 

Assuming I can find a competent welder, I hope to have this discussion behind me soon, as though I have nothing more to do! If they still had such things, I should enroll in machinist school and get a degree in metallurgy!

Even fitting SS screws, etc., on my sailboat’s aluminum mast is problematic in saltwater. SOP requires an anti-seize compound. For all of its virtues, it seems aluminum is manifesting its liabilities here big time! One of the bolts I removed from the water pump was powdery (and I have never taken her into saltwater!). I don’t think it was enough corrosion to matter as far as strength, but just look at the havoc being caused here.

Frank, hope to hear some good news soon! Your idea of making the bolt bigger has crossed my mind too. Trust it will work well.

Big Koshka, I have a Milwaukee cordless right-angle drill with a surprising amount of torque. If I remove the previously mentioned pulley and its base and find a short, sharp drill bit, I have plenty of room without removing the radiator. Also, the idea of having a piece of stock (say ¾” thick?) machined to cover the area of the water pump and holes allowing for it to be bolted onto the housing just like the water pump is ingenious! So much so that I would think the Jag Clubs would make some of these up; perhaps they have? Since the bolt is 6M, the hole over the recalcitrant bolt would have to be 5M; unless, of course, one wants to just go for the coil in which case it would be sized accordingly.

While I’m waiting on a welder to ideally accomplish the task, I will call around to some machine shops, if there are any left, to see about having a guide made using the water pump as a template.

 

FYI: I was given an estimate by a machine shop for making a 3/8" steel plate as described above with holes drilled coincident with the water pump's. This would act as a solid guide for the drill bit.

Price: $600.00 US

The biggest welding supply in our area is getting some names together of competent welders. Will it be more or less than $600?

 

$600 is a fair price that also translates as "GTF outta my face."

Your OLD water pump has the holes already where they belong, and the cost is "free" to use it 'directly'. Cost is not a great deal more to use to spot drill a steel counterpart "directly" either.


If you expect severe drill walk, just press a hardened steel drill bushing into the offending hole and start with a Carbide "Burr" to even out a pocket, follow with a smaller drill.

Once done, a larger drill will follow that hole, unaided, and if it is a left-hand twist will helpfully grab, jam and may walk the bolt remains right out.

Helical twist drills are NOT MEANT to be used as reamers to open up smaller holes, and are quite happy to grab whenever you try to abuse them that way.

Especially if you have wearied of dicking around with it and carefully applied a torch and a reagent stronger than ignorant PB Laster to break the corrosion binding. Have a care. You need the engine block but mildly insulted, not locally dissolved.

Take advantage of that, this go, as drills, burrs, reamers and taps are cheap.

Siluminum engine blocks, or TiG'ing a raggedy-*** hole solid and starting over with drilling and tapping as-new, not so cheap. Just common as dirt.

"For future reference".. come re-assembly time. IF/AS/WHEN a(ny) fastener does NOT call for (at least) "Blue" Loctite? Use the "Green" anyway. It doesn't affect the retention strength significantly.

What it DOES is anerobically fill the spaces so corrosives cannot enter and alter the retention in a BAD way, either.

Usually, most fasteners are good with the "blue". Stiffens-up retention, but of equal importance, excludes corrosives so next extraction is predictable and consistent, one to the next..

No more busted fasteners, next go.

"This is not a crisis. A crisis is men trapped in a coal mine...."


Learn and live.

 

Thanks, Bill!

I must have left my brain in my other pants! Unless someone see's a reason why not to try Bill's idea, I will. Without looking, I would say the thickness of the pump at the bolt holes is at least an inch which is certainly of sufficient length to keep the bit true.

I will study "drills, burrs, reamers and taps". & endeavor to come up with ...

Info on Loctite & corrosion is helpful too.

Best,

Steve S.

P.S. No welders have hastened to get back to me yet.

 

Not when it is only shiney-wood (ignorant Aluminium) it ain't. Then again, it would be less than $600 if you bought an "extra" new water-pump, ruint it, and threw it way.

No fear. McMaster-Carr can ship store-bought sleeves for drill bushings to yah in a day or three. You don't need the retainer-body, only the hardened sleeve it holds.

All you need, really are common UNhardened steel sleeves or spacer tubes, as you ain't needing but the ONE pass, smaller is gooder to start ,and too much lube is not enough.
No need of the hardness to survive multiple thousands of parts drilled with production-line jigs and fixtures.

Might find a workalike in the cheap pack of various size tubing sold for hobby robotics and art metal work. Or even your plumbing "Hell Box" of odds & sods of left-over BRASS ferrules & tubing 'stuff'.

OK if it spins. Job One is to prevent drill flutes digging into one side of the shiney-wood and going off at some offset, odd angle, or both.

No s**t? I had to carry my needs TO the old buzzard I used!

He was worth it. They roll ready to weld anything but broken hearts and the crack of Dawn, so 'callouts' have minimums, and cost more than medical Doctors used to charge. The typical callout might have an excavator down and thousands of dollars a day in overdue completion penalties at stake.

OTOH Medical Doctors CAN fix broken hearts and even change Dawn's wotsit into "Don's" dong these days,......... or so the grownups tell me....

 

Bill, you're too much!

 

OK, The welding company, Blackened Hammer, is very reasonable and the young proprietor sounds good. $100 includes to & fro + 1 hour and then $70 per hour.

I plan to study, measure & order to implements Bill's suggestion & if it doesn't work, a welding it will be.

 

Be aware that if you drill and fail, you'll not be able to leave any steel in there, will have to open it up by drilling larger, then TiG welding it full-solid Alooominoom to be carefully drilled afresh, then tapped for the stock size bolt. Done every day, "somewhere", so not a BFD, just tedious.

But if you try extracting by welding-on a grippable head FIRST, you might be done sooner, be no WORSE off. Just a few dollars lighter in the wallet.

"Decisions, decisions, decisions....."

Matter of fact, I DO have two separate toilet tissue dispenser rolls mounted in the Master Bathroom. How did you ever guess?

 

Thanks, Bill. By the time I remove the fly wheel, get the highest quality carbide LH bit of a shorter length, the tube, etc., a little welding whoop *** might very well be the best option. Especially when there is a probability that the weld may not work as you pointed out. Besides, I've never been anywhere near a welding before & I am fascinated by it.

This weekend, I will get back at it & make a decision.

Best,

Steve S.

 

Lost for words!
I should seriously consider opening one man machine shop!
What this world is coming to?!
Last week I needed to do simple lathe turning to take 0.060 from UHMW (generic plastic) rod 12" long and cut a keway through full length of the shaft. Machine shop manager could not spare machinist. He could not find outside shop that could do the job in 5 days!
I spend more his and mine time discussing it than me coming down into shop and making it myself!
As they say:"there is no such thing like 15 minutes job; and it take $1500 to order $75 lunch..."

 

Well... yah.. we live in a world where it is faster and cheaper to order pre-keyed from Thompson Shafting or equivalent, pay a premium for custom diameter, and

...go back to ignoring feelthy politics, classing preverted **** as too boring, and debating the merits of professional athlete's aritificial love lives, alleged "music", and so-called "recreational" drugs.

Good time to be OLD.

Not sure I'd have the stamina for what's bound to be catching-up as Old Lady Nature proves Darwin's theory still has legs.

"Mankind" isn't just a tool MAKING or USING "animal"

(S)HE is a PROBLEM SOLVER.

Once problems are being created at whim outta thin air faster than resolutions?
The fecal matter is already in avalanche mode, downslope.

 

OK, since the welder said the broken bolt is too close to the gasket, he advised not welding.

So, I have reattached the water pump using three screws to hold it. Idea being, the hole for the broken bolt will be the guide for drilling. In order to do that I need to get a sleeve to place in the hole to reduce the size from 6mm to a smaller diameter. I suspect that a 5mm makes the most sense, but i'll settle for what I can get. I will stop occassionally & remove the pump to see if the bolt has loosened enough to spin it out.

I talked with the pros at Tacoma Screw & they carry some very sharp bits in LH thread & they, I think, are short enough to fit & long enough to go the distance. More later.

Ideally, I can get the bolt out & save the threads for using another 6M bolt.