XJ XJ6 / XJR6 ( X300 ) 1995-1997

Both banks fuel trims keep resetting

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
  #21  
Old 07-18-2023, 01:08 PM
Parker 7's Avatar
Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,447
Received 986 Likes on 826 Posts
Default

The reset may not be a reset per say but maybe that higher RPMs bring your STFT in expected range for whatever reason we are trying to decern.

The -24.2 is the last value it will give you as the true value is off scale
 
  #22  
Old 07-18-2023, 01:31 PM
Andyboy1971's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2023
Location: PNW
Posts: 39
Received 9 Likes on 6 Posts
Default

The reason I mention reset is that while the engine is idling the short term Trims will set back to zero and then slowly move back. The engine will momentarily smooth out and then move back to missfires. And this happens over and over and over.
 
  #23  
Old 07-18-2023, 07:13 PM
Vee's Avatar
Vee
Vee is online now
Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,937
Received 1,575 Likes on 1,223 Posts
Default

What is the LTFT for Bank 1
What is the LTFT for Bank 2
 
  #24  
Old 07-18-2023, 07:29 PM
Parker 7's Avatar
Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,447
Received 986 Likes on 826 Posts
Default

Any Check Engine Light codes with the OBD - 2 basic reader ?

Your reader that is giving you live data like your fuel trims as observed

Your reader probably has other parameter IDs ( PID ) that can be looked at

The 4 most important are:

Mass air flow rate

Throttle position sensor

Engine coolant Temperature

and your STFT

At idle for this engine the values are :

TPS : 13 % at idle and moving very smoothly toward 100 at wide open throttle

MAF : 4.5 grams / second at correct idle going up to around 175 on wide open throttle

ECT : at least 88 C after warm up

STFT target of 0 %

Without the reader you can use a common multimeter

With the reader you can record a graph so when at home you can interpret you live data and see what is the cause of your drift

There is a thing if the ECU sees a sensor missing or out of expected range it will reject the sensor and revert to a not optimal set of data maps or arrays until that sensor comes back in range

This takes some time to default back and forth out of best engine regulation
 
  #25  
Old 07-18-2023, 08:08 PM
Andyboy1971's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2023
Location: PNW
Posts: 39
Received 9 Likes on 6 Posts
Default

Before I threw parts at any other sensor, I used the live data when I bought this car to observe Open loop heavy components such as the Coolant temp, mass air flow sensor and throttle position to indicate if either of those are a fault.
apon viewing the live data 20 mins ago, everything was reading complete nominal and in range. HOWEVER,
before leaving into my gym I hooked up the code reader and read the codes. At idle, this is what they read, STFT B1 0% (GOOD!!) STFT B2 +24% (NOT GOOD) it has been running much better after fixing an exhaust leak and egr leak but still missfired a little and a weird flat loss of power. So, I reset the ECU and turned the car back on.
The fuel trim for bank one was back to -24 and the trim for bank 2 was +24. And it ran noticeably much worse!
also to note, they both rose completely parallel of each other I,E if bank one was -10 bank two was +10 and so fourth up to 24 where it held

This is when i plugged it in before resetting

After resetting
 
The following users liked this post:
Parker 7 (07-18-2023)
  #26  
Old 07-18-2023, 08:26 PM
Parker 7's Avatar
Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,447
Received 986 Likes on 826 Posts
Default

On paper 192 F is very very near the tripping point of open / closed loop mode 88 C

The fluid thermostat should hold it a slight margin above the tripping point

So you might be at a thermostat change keeping in mind the thermostat does not take a large O - ring even if it comes with one , cracks the housing on bolt down

You might observe if the ECT waviers below your 192 shown as this would be worse
 
  #27  
Old 07-18-2023, 08:33 PM
Andyboy1971's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2023
Location: PNW
Posts: 39
Received 9 Likes on 6 Posts
Default

Typically my Ect sits at around 185 degrees.
it's currently about 85 degrees °F where I'm at and I was also idling stationary for a bit.
 
  #28  
Old 07-18-2023, 09:17 PM
xalty's Avatar
Veteran Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 3,309
Received 1,062 Likes on 853 Posts
Default

global obd isn’t to be trusted on these cars
 
  #29  
Old 07-18-2023, 09:19 PM
Andyboy1971's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2023
Location: PNW
Posts: 39
Received 9 Likes on 6 Posts
Default

I've watched these fuel trims do basically the same thing on a Dealer approved scanner.
 
  #30  
Old 07-18-2023, 10:42 PM
Parker 7's Avatar
Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,447
Received 986 Likes on 826 Posts
Default

The below 88 C ECT puts you in open loop mode that does not use O2 sensors for engine regulation

There is a way of putting a common meter on the ECT sensor against a calibration graph on page 78

But your observation of 85 F ( warm idle ? ) shows a wide variance explained by .........................

801S TITLE (jagrepair.com)
 

Last edited by Parker 7; 07-18-2023 at 10:50 PM.
  #31  
Old 07-19-2023, 12:24 AM
Parker 7's Avatar
Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,447
Received 986 Likes on 826 Posts
Default

Your ECT return signal is socket Red 14 , Blue / Yellow wire

Look for missing 1 of 2 pinching tabs on the socket

 

Last edited by Parker 7; 07-19-2023 at 12:31 AM.
  #32  
Old 07-19-2023, 03:59 PM
Vee's Avatar
Vee
Vee is online now
Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,937
Received 1,575 Likes on 1,223 Posts
Default

I'm going to leave you with this.

STFT should be constantly jumping around. If you have a static number, something is wrong.

Coolant Temp needs to get to 160F or 170F (I forget) before engine can go open loop. Your coolant and it's sensor are in the clear. Cross that off.

If I had to throw a part at this, it would be a new crankshaft position sensor. They are fairly cheap online and you can replace it in about 15 minutes.
 
  #33  
Old 07-20-2023, 09:09 AM
Andyboy1971's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2023
Location: PNW
Posts: 39
Received 9 Likes on 6 Posts
Default

I actually just changed my CPS last night with, of course, no change in operation. All connections to the ECU are clean and in good condition. I even opened up the ECU case to check all the Caps and soldier Connections for cracks and or corrosion. Everything looks great, PERFECT even. So I'm still at a loss.
 
  #34  
Old 07-20-2023, 10:35 AM
Vee's Avatar
Vee
Vee is online now
Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,937
Received 1,575 Likes on 1,223 Posts
Default

You mentioned that the oxygen sensors had been replaced as well. Can you read them on your OBD2 device. Like the STFTs, they should be constantly moving. If theres a number that is static, thats a problem.

All four of your oxygen sensors have the same plug. When they were last replaced, is it at all possible that they were switched accidentally? There is no absolute way of checking, since a PDU/WDS can have the ECU "relearn" the orientation of the oxygen sensors. BUT if no one has ever performed that on the car, the following would be connected:

Bank A Upstream has a solid GREEN wire (along with Blue/Purple, Blue/Brown, White/Brown) - The Bank A Downstream has a solid BLUE wire (along with Blue/Purple, Blue/Pink, White/Brown)

Bank B Upstream has a solid BROWN wire (along with Blue/Purple, Blue/Brown, White/Brown) - The Bank B Downstream has a solid RED wire (along with Blue/Purple, Blue/Pink, White/Brown)

Make sure you trace the right sensor wire back to the connection and check these wire colors against what is connected. I would mark each side of the harness and only then, see what happens where you swap out upstreams, then downstreams.

MAF sensor could also be to blame here. Have you tried cleaning it, and checking connections? They make a MAF sensor cleaner spray....

 
  #35  
Old 07-20-2023, 11:19 AM
Parker 7's Avatar
Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,447
Received 986 Likes on 826 Posts
Default

The instrument gauge temp indicator is the single wire temp sensor on the thermostat housing

The ECT sensor to the ECU is the 2 wire sensor next to it

Since you have a wide variance on your device that the ECU is seeing at different times you can in this case compare the temps with the inaccurate instrument cluster for a correlation of what state your cooling fluid actually is

I'm going to stick with 88 C tripping point even though I can't find it documented

Vee had the suggestion of giving a slight twist in the MAF sensor connector pin / blades for better contact so it does not " drop out "
 
  #36  
Old 07-20-2023, 12:43 PM
xalty's Avatar
Veteran Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 3,309
Received 1,062 Likes on 853 Posts
Default

digging yourself a deeper hole every time

describe the symptoms of your problem and start over
 
The following users liked this post:
Parker 7 (07-20-2023)
  #37  
Old 07-20-2023, 02:55 PM
Parker 7's Avatar
Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,447
Received 986 Likes on 826 Posts
Default

Need to confirm his 185 F and 85 F observation.

This should be observable on the other instrument gauge
 

Last edited by Parker 7; 07-20-2023 at 02:58 PM.
  #38  
Old 07-20-2023, 05:04 PM
countyjag's Avatar
Veteran Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1,081
Received 525 Likes on 374 Posts
Default

Revisit what b1mcp said. Swapping the O2 sensor plugs and getting them in the wrong sockets is very easy to do, and would seem likely to produce the sort of symptoms you were experiencing.
 
The following users liked this post:
b1mcp (07-21-2023)
  #39  
Old 07-21-2023, 03:32 PM
Andyboy1971's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2023
Location: PNW
Posts: 39
Received 9 Likes on 6 Posts
Default

Alright, The MAF is not the problem (I'm observing how it meters air and everything looks correct)

As of now, LTFT for both banks is -10.5

STFT for both banks are flip flopped. If bank one is -24 then bank two is +24. Under WOT they both set to 0.
voltages for b1 and b2 lamba sensors are between 1.00v and 0.985v on both banks (fluctuating)
normally, i see 185 degrees from the ECU when the dash Temp gauge reads one Tick below "normal"

coolant temp sensor new, all new coils, injectors are good, no smoke leak when leak down tested, Crank position sensor is new.

b1 is always taking away fuel and b2 is always adding in some variety or another
 
  #40  
Old 07-21-2023, 04:18 PM
Parker 7's Avatar
Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,447
Received 986 Likes on 826 Posts
Default

Lamba is a numerical value with no units with target 1.0

The return voltage of the O2 sensors to the ECU are in the range of 3.5 volts

Do you have the correct O2 sensors installed as they are the different titania technology

Your reader may not read them correctly and default to the more common version


See page 80

801S TITLE (jagrepair.com)

The engine regulation is the rear 2 sensors and the fwd 2 are for Cat efficiency comparison for a CEL code X and Y only

You mentioned you saw 85 F ECT at idle

Did you see a corresponding dip on the instrument gauge

This gauge is not accurate but in this case you can compare to see what your true coolant temp is as an inference


 

Last edited by Parker 7; 07-21-2023 at 05:01 PM.


Quick Reply: Both banks fuel trims keep resetting



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:18 AM.