Hi All,
I just picked up a 96 vanden plas 4.0l with 83,xxx miles in very good condition (its been in storage since 2009)....only problem, it doesn't run

I have done quite a bit of searching through the forum before joining and already discovered that I had a bad crankshaft position sensor (no RPM while cranking and no spark). I have since replaced that and have gotten it to start and idle (very rough) a hand full of times. So on to the part that has me scratching my head:

I noticed that in the trunk there was the remnants of a new fuel pump package...I am assuming that the previous owner replaced this while troubleshooting his problems...so I am going to assume the pump is OK.

While attempting to get the car started I decided I better drain the fuel since it is now almost 7 years old, so I disconnected the return fuel line at the rail and and planned on jumping the fuel pump relay so I could drain the tank into a pail. Well before getting a chance to try this I accidentally turned the key too far and engaged the starter....and guess what...it started right up and purred like a kitten. The idle was very smooth and the car ran until it finished all the gas in the rail.

So I reattached the line and reinstalled the relay and attempted to start the car again...nothing

I detached the line and pulled the relay and it started right back up again. So now I am thinking I have some blockage in the return line, so I hook up the compressor and blow out the return line ( I can feel air coming out of the filler cap). I hook everything back up and try to start the car and it fires up, however it idles very rough and it is blowing black smoke out the exhaust (running super rich). The car runs for about 3 minutes and then shuts off and wont restart.

So I am wondering do I have a bad sensor somewhere, or is this an issue with fuel delivery? I also pulled the codes off the car when I first got it and here is what it had:
P0118, P0113, P1777, P1517, P0103, P0102, P1401, P0430, P0420

Yeah a lot of codes, I know....any ideas on what could have triggered all this? And I have no idea about the history of this car, I bought it from a friend who got it from someone else who was flipping cars and didnt want to deal with this...luckily I didnt spend too much on it and if I have to part it out, I am sure I will make my money back (but I much rather keep it and drive it!).

Thanks in advance,
Chris

 

Pictures always help :-)

 

Hi Chris,

Welcome to the Jaguar Forums and congratulations on that beautiful car. I'm sure you can get it running great with a little more diagnostic work.

It's late and my brain is fried but I'll toss out a few ideas. You may find some helpful information on the fuel lines, fuel tank and evaporative emissions system, which I believe are explained in the Engine Management Systems manual at the link below, courtesy of our forum member Gus (your engine is an AJ16):

http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Trai...20-%202000.pdf

Regarding all the codes that were stored, it is common for Jaguars to trip many erroneous codes if the battery voltage sags too low, especially while cranking the engine. And note that if the voltage sags much below 11V the Engine Control Module (ECM) will not trigger the ignition to fire. I would recommend clearing those codes and then only concerning yourself with those that recur.

It wouldn't hurt to do a basic tuneup to rule out an obstructed fuel filter, air filter, eroded or contaminated spark plugs, etc. But the fact that the engine seems to want to run when the return fuel line is disconnected and fuel pump relay is removed is very curious (the fuel injectors require pressurized fuel in order to operate - they don't generate any pressure themselves).

One thought would be to leave the fuel pump relay installed, disconnect the fuel return line and put something at the end to catch the fuel and see if the engine will run smoothly and continuously.

Gotta get to bed but will watch your thread for suggestions from other members.

Cheers,

Don

 

You've got to fix this. the VdP is a superb specification.

Seven year old fuel and possible contaminated/blocked fuel filter? I'd get those out the way first to eliminate fuel starvation and the risk of damaging the pump.

Starts-runs-stops / running rich. Makes me think temperature sensors.

Graham

 

I agree with what was said above re the error codes: ignore these for now, as they are likely to be historic/ related to low battery voltage. Idling smoothly is a good sign, and you should work back from there.
As Don suggests, I would try disconnecting just the supply line or just the relay to try to narrow the possibilities down. My guess is that the return line is a red herring: with the fuel pump relay disconnected, there will not be sufficient pressure to generate surplus fuel to return to the tank, so even if the pipe was blocked (which possibility you seem to have already eliminated) it would make no difference.
I would confess to being at a loss as to how you can have sufficient pressure for the car to run under any circumstances with the fuel pump relay disconnected. Do you leave the ignition on for a while, then disconnect the relay?
I ask, as I am wondering whether the supply or the supply pipe is constricted, meaning it takes the pump a while to build pressure at the rail, and that it cannot maintain sufficient to sustain idling. I would suggest changing the fuel filter, and then checking whether there is ample fuel flow to the rail. In the absence of a takeoff point for a fuel pressure gauge, this might involve loosening a connection, having taken appropriate safety precautions.

 

Curious indeed - and at this point I have no idea! Personally I'd drain the old fuel, replace with new, bottle of fuel injector cleaner or two, replace fuel filter and thoroughly clean throttle body and air intake/MAF and replace air filter

Trust me, you do not want to have to replace fuel pipes/lines if you can help it - Jaguar in their infinite wisdom appear to have used some size unknown to lesser humans - so be VERY careful when replacing fuel filter

This is now going to annoy me - why would it purr again when return opened? I'll go and have a pint of Guinness and NOT think about it - that's generally when inspiration strikes as the subconscious is a wonderful thing (only one example is a police small systems solution that refused to work - spent over six hours messing with it, boss threw me out of the office with a 'go get lunch', got pint, started on Times crossword, subconscious piped up with 'wonder if this will work?' - swift instructions to barman to watch pint and paper, back across road, code amended, ran perfectly - 'Right, that's me done for the day and tomorrow - see you Friday' - back to pint and paper, boss arrived in bar hours later wanting to know how I did it - 'Dunno - maybe the devil made me do it! System used for over a decade! )

Take a step back, have a drink, have a shower, something will pop up

c

 

Huh? the fuel lines are 5/16" and 3/8", couldn't get more common. Similarly, the fuel filter has been used by GM for about 30 years on all sorts of cars and trucks, there are millions of vehicles with the same filter on the roads.

 

If I recall correctly, it is the two little short lines coming out of the tank that are rare as hen's teeth! I believe "NLA" in Jaguar Service terminology. Perhaps this is what Nibbster refers to?

 

I had the same issue when I first bought mine non running,I ended up draining the fuel tank by sticking a toothpick in the fuel pump relay after removing the cover.

I had hooked up a rubber hose at the line at the fuel rail then into a gas can,added fresh gas then flushed the lines.

It fired up but ran rough,rich and no power with the exhaust pipe glowing red,but did not stay running.

I pulled an injector out and tapped it on a piece of metal and smelled the little drops of gas that it deposited and they still smelled of bad gas.

I ended up buying a injector rail with injectors at the junk yard and after I installed them it fired right up and ran good.
The new gas seems to turn to water and after sitting in the injectors for awhile I think it rusts them inside.
You guys up north always have such nice interiors that have not been all sun baked and dried out.

 

If it was rusty injectors, I don't see how it could idle smoothly even for short periods. Adding fresh fuel to the equation couldn't do any harm though.

 

Standard? I took the original jag fuel filter around a load of places to see if I could get a hose made up to fit and it was 'no way, no how'

The fuel line dimensions 'sound' right but I seem to recall they're not - the lines are a law unto themselves when it comes to size and being steel a nightmare to work with - my original intent was to replace the lot with cunifer but just couldn't get right size so there's a couple of places replaced with flexible hose and clips

About to go get trousers on and take the car round and get underside washed and then it's rust converter, zinc rich primer and waxoyl - sounds like a plan

c

 

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the feed back. I got a few minutes to work on it this weekend, and have this to report back:

First we pulled apart the intake and cleaned what I assume is the mass airflow sensor (mesh screen in front of a little metal rod). Sprayed it with carb cleaner, it really wasnt all that dirty. Plugged it all back together and tried to start it. no luck

Then we removed the return line on the fuel rail and pulled the fuel pump relay out, it fired right up.

Then I hooked the return port on the fuel rail to a rubber hose and ran it back into the filler neck on the tank. We got it started with the fuel pump relay disconnected, and then every time I plugged the relay back in, the car would immediately start to studded run super rich (smoke) and almost die. The only exception was if you really stepped on the gas pedal. Then it would run until you let off the pedal and it would die.

I had two codes reappear: P1777 and P1517

I am planning on getting that old fuel out of the tank today, and replacing the fuel filter and plugs, however I dont think the filter or plugs are causing my issue....I am still leaning more towards a fuel pressure regulator. I just hate throwing parts at a problem and hoping it fixes the issue, especially since parts for this car are so $$$

-Chris

 

It's clearly overfueling. Since it seems to run OK with the fuel pump disconnected the pressure regulator is the first thing I would change and see what happens from there.

Yes, the Mass air sensor is between the air filter and intake.

Parts generally are not too expensive, look on Rockauto.com or some of the specialists who are forum sponsors: SNG Barratt, Coventry West etc.

 

Alright I bit the bullet and ordered a new fuel pressure regulator. $64 from amazon compared to the $100 they wanted at the local advanced. It should be here in the next day or so. I will update when its in.

Any ideas on the codes I am getting?

 

Here is one code: http://www.jagrepair.com/images/TSB/...M%20Recall.pdf

P1517 is the Park/Neutral switch. Does the P light up when the shift lever is in P? It should, the car won't start if it doesn't, because the computer doesn't think the car is in P.

 

Thanks for the link....its making me wonder if maybe the car is in some kind of limp mode and thats why its not running. I am going to verify my VIN number is in that range. IS there anyway to verify it is in a "limp" mode? I would assume this would cut fuel or spark, or retard timing, but am not sure.

Now bear with me if this is a stupid question, but I am unfamiliar with how Jaguar dealers handle tech bulletins. Would this be similar to a recall and would it be a free replacement? And if so would they still honor it 20 years later?

My guess is no, but just thought I would ask.

And yes the park light is illuminated in P.

Thanks,
Chris

 

It would still start and idle fine, even if the transmission was in limp mode. I doubt that's the problem. These cars are known for being fussy about battery voltage, you can get all sorts of codes if the battery voltage drops when cranking.

I'd worry about getting it running properly, and then see if any codes develop. I bet they will go away when it runs right.

No idea what a dealer would do, but my guess is there are no parts available any more. The transmission ECU is NLA now.

 

Chris,

You can download the complete X300 Diagnostic Trouble Code Summaries manual at the link below:

http://www.jag.co.jp/test_tool/jaguar_dtc/AJ169679.pdf

P1777 indicates a problem with the torque reduction circuit between the Transmission Control Module and the Engine Control Module. It's probably a spurious code due to the rough running of the engine or low battery voltage.

Cheers,

Don

 

Grasping at straws here but had a 450sl that was doing the kinda same thing and ended up being the return line was plugged in the fuel tank.

You can idle a V8 all day long by dropping fuel down the carb,it only needs a few drops to run.

The injector atomizes the fuel,if it is stuck and allowing fuel to dribble past it it will run until you need power.

If you can get it to idle you can put one end of a long screwdriver on the injector and your ear on the other end,if it is working you will here it clicking rapidly.

The to much fuel aspect may be stuck injectors dumping fuel and choking it out.

Testing return line for blockage,injector for clicking while idling,if not then use a 12 volt tester on the injector plug and see if you have volts to fire the injector.

That's like 5 minutes of testing with little tools and eliminating a lot,other then that it will take a fuel pressure gauge to test fuel pressure.

It would be unsafe for me to say to test the fuel pressure on a cold engine and place a rag under the fuel supply line,loosen the line up a little so the hose wiggles then turn the key on to activate the pump,if it sprays a mist at all it should be enough pressure to start and run.

I think the general rule of thumb,which I did not follow and it cost me two days of diagnostics,should be if somebody says the car sat for a couple of months not started,the first thing would be to drain the fuel tank and add fresh fuel before starting.

Maybe this helps a little.Hopefully.

 

Hi All,
sorry about the delay in updates, I have been out of the country for the last week and just got back. Today I drained the gas replaced the fuel pressure regulator, installed a new battery and put in some new spark plugs. I connected all the lines back up and cranked it over and it fired right up. It ran fine for about 5 minutes until I tried to put it in gear and move it. it then sputtered and died under load. I tried to restart and it wouldn't. I then pulled the fuel pump relay out and it started right up, idling perfectly, I put the relay back in and it dies immediately.

I then checked the codes and the first one that comes up is P1777 "ignition retard request", this one is reoccurring, and I also noticed that a little picture of the transmission shows up on the dash.





So now I am wondering, if the car is trying to retard the spark and is for some reason unable to burn all the fuel that is being delivered....does this make any sense or am I grasping at straws?

Thanks,
Chris