I gotta start out by saying, I'm just about done with Jags. Great looking car, rides wonderfully.....runs great(usually). Too many big money issues for the mileage though. Anyway, yesterday wife is driving the car...she hears a whirring or whining noise she hasn't heard before. Stops at a red light and car does not want to move forward when light turns green. It finally did and she made it the other 3 miles or so to the house. Just before turning into the driveway the "Gearbox fault" came up. I got it in this morning, and it will go into reverse, but is slipping going into 1st. I'm not going to drive it anymore. First question is this...is there anyway to retrieve fault codes without a code scanner. I know on my old Chevys I could jump two of the pins on the OBD terminal and it would flash out the codes on the check engine light. Any such trick on a Jag? I'm just really bummed. The car has 106000 miles on it, which in my opinion, is way too few miles to justify the amount of money spent on repairs. I'm driving a 2006 GMC pickup with 200000 miles on it, and the only money I've had to spend on it so far is for brakes, tires, a battery and regular oil changes.

 

Sounds like the 'A' clutch drum has failed inside the gearbox-it's a ZF 5HP24 gearbox & is a known problem with the earlier versions. The problem often starts manifesting itself by a delay of several seconds in engaging drive when 'D' is selected & the gearbox engaging with a 'thud' if the engine is revved in 'D' during this delay period.

The problem was caused by 2 reasons...

Firstly, the valve block body in the gearbox sump used plastic valves which would wear prematurely & cause fluid pressure 'spikes' which would explode the forward 'A' clutch drum.

Secondly, the 'A' clutch drum was already a weak spot for failure before adding in the fluid pressure spike problem.

The problem was resolved on later models by a strengthened 'A' clutch drum & resdesigned valving in the valve block body-which would also need replacing if it had been scored as well in the failure process.

No easy cure for this fault, unfortunately...

I'm not aware of any other method of retrieving Jag fault codes without using a scanner, although basic scanners are not really that expensive

 

There is possibility that you are low on fluid. I would check that before pulling the trans. I don't think there is a way of reading codes without a code reader.

 

thanks for the input guys.....I'm thinking probably A drum, although I will definitely check fluid level. I have no intention of getting robbed at the transmission shop though. My biggest question at this point is, am I going to be able to pull the tranny without a vehicle lift to get it several feet off the ground?

 

Another question regarding code readers. Am I not going to need a reader capable of reading vehicle specific codes to pull gearbox codes?

 

The code readers show the 'P' codes, which are the Powertrain codes & include the engine & gearbox. All you need to do is get a cheap code reader, scan the system for fault codes & then cross-refer online using search engines to locate the OBDII codes for the X308 Jaguar.

Regarding removing the transmission-you just need to raise the front of the vehicle enough to allow access to the transmission & to slide it out from underneath once unbolted from the engine/propshaft.

Jaguar don't state a specific height to raise the vehicle to for transmision removal, so it's just a case of raising the vehicle enough to give you enough room-if there's not enough room, then just raise it a bit more until there is enough room

You will need a transmission jack-Jaguar suggest an Epco V-100 or similar. You'll also need the special Jaguar Engine Lifting Brackets (part no: 303-536) & the main big Jaguar Engine Support Beam (part no: 303-021). This lets you support the rear of the engine from the top rear of the engine bay from under the bonnet, for when you finally come to remove the main vehicle engine support bracket from underneath the car.

 

Ok....scanned system for DTCs, and came up with only one(P0442)...which is not transmission related. If there is a gearbox problem, will it definitely throw a DTC?

 

Just an update on my situation......and another question. I ended up having a transmission shop replace my A drum. I found a guy familiar with the zf A drum failure...said he had done about 20 of them. We spent a good amount of time discussing the problem, as I was pretty sure I knew what was wrong....thanks to all the posts I've read here related to the A drum. The info I've received here has been invaluable. Anyway, he quoted me $1,300.00 to do the job. This sounded like a great price, but, I have to admit, I felt like it might be too good to be true. I ended up letting the guy do it, and so far, so good. My biggest concern now is this. He did not refill the tranny with specified fluids. When I picked the car up, I, of course, asked to see the drum. It was fractured...then asked him about what fluid he used....just wanted to know.
He said he used Dexron III and LubeGard. This concerned me. He offered to drain and replace it if I wanted him to, but insisted I would have no trouble with the fluid. He did provide me a two year warranty on job, so I let it go. He says he uses this in all transmissions. Did some reading on the LubeGard website, and according to them this is okay. Any thoughts?

 

Delbert....If you have just spent $1300 on a trans rebuild, at least the guy should get the oil right!

In no way should Dex.111 be used in the trans!
It's fine for the previous generation 4HP22 as fitted to the six cylinder X300 but the later ZF 5HP24E as fitted to jaguars X308 and BMW 5 and 7 series must use the following.

The original oil for these boxes was ESSO LT71141
There are a number of modern equivelants of this oil as long as they are fully synthetic and met or exceed the LT71141 specs.

In your country I'm not sure but Pentosin is one and there are several others
If this guy claims to be a ZF eggspurt, he should damn well know this!
Don't let him fob you off claiming that a Dex.111 is OK....IT IS NOT!!

 

Don't use Dexron III-even with Lubegard or anything else-it just isn't worth the risk.

You need a fully synthetic transmission fluid as xjay8 says above. Dexron III has different lubrication & friction/viscosity characteristics so is not suitable for the ZF 5-speed transmission in your XJ8.

The gearbox in your car was developed by ZF & they specified the LT71141 fluid spec to allow this gearbox to perform correctly with regard to shift quality & torque-converter lockup operation.

Dexron III with 'added Lubegard' is not the same thing as a pure synthetic transmission fluid meeting the required LT71141 spec.

If you think about the '2 year warranty' on the work-this will only apply to the specific repair he did on your gearbox. If another part of your gearbox fails further down the line & you take it back to him, he'll say it's a different fault to the original & is not covered by the warranty.

The problem you'll then have is that you won't know whether this potential different fault is the result of genuine gearbox wear or a consequence of using 'Dexron III & Lubegard' instead of the correct ZF LT71141 spec oil.

I'd be inclined to go back to him & politely request that you can't afford to take the risk of using this alternative fluid combination, and that you'd like to take him up on his original offer to drain the fluid & refill the transmision with a fully synthetic fluid which meets the original ZF LT71141 specification.

You've only just had the transmission overhauled so now is the best time to get the correct fluid put back into it before you start building up the miles again.

 

Well, like I said, since I have never read anything, prior to this, on the LubeGard product, I did have some concerns I was being fed a line of BS. I'm not saying I won't ask my mechanic to change out the fluids, but LubeGard does claim this an acceptable application of their product. I downloaded a conversion chart they have available, and the conversion blend for the zf5hp24 used in the 2000 VDP is listed. Really just find it interesting I've never read anything else on the subject.

 

The only technical authority that can decide which fluid is suitable for their transmission is the manufacturer, ZF. They are the only ones who can conduct exhaustive long-term testing & research on their transmissions to establish the results of using particular fluids in them.

I'm not sure why the transmission shop went down the slightly corrugated path of fortifying Dexron III with another additive package to make a 'blend' that Lubegard say is suitable for the ZF5HP24 transmission.

Surely the simplest route to take is just to source the correct fluid right from the start of the transmission refill-it can't be that hard to locate a fully synthetic transmission fluid that meets the ZF spec of LT71141 in a nation the size of the USA...

I'm just a bit puzzled as why they made up a 'blend' of various mixes instead of just going for the single correct fluid right from the start

 

Totally understand where you're coming from. There are indeed substitutes available...Pentosin being one of them. And, in hindsight, I would have purchased the fluids myself and delivered them along with the car. As to why he chooses to use the blends. I believe LubeGard has been able to sell transmission shops a "one fluid fits all" type system. At least I do know that is the marketing angle they are taking. Needless to say, I am always leery of this type approach. As to the extensive testing and research done by ZF...well....one could argue that more thorough testing might also have revealed the A drum weakness. That being said, I think I've decided to let my Jag be a guinea pig. Not planning on parting with her, so I'm going to let this play out. Either I'm going to be out $1300.00(plus another rebuild, of course..lol), or it may prove out another alternative. May sound foolish, but I've lost more money on less in the past. I'll be glad to let any interested forum members know about the outcome. 116,500 miles on her now. Let's see how long LubeGard will keep her rolling.
Probst

 

I also wonder why ZF could specify such a poor transmission, or did Jaguar choose it as being the cheapest? Either way, I still question the wisdom of ZF as it must hurt their reputation, also. And who made the sealed for life/ no dipstick required decision?

 

Good question RJ. "Sealed for life" seems pretty stupid to me as well....but it seems to be making it's way into American cars also. A friend of my brothers just bought a new Chevy truck. It has sealed for life tranny too. I don't understand it....unless you can really make it last a couple of hundred thousand miles.

 

RJ and Delbert...I will answer two questions here.

The reason these lube jockey's use something like Lubegard, is because they are offered a good incentive to use it!
It comes relatively cheap and has already been said one size fits all.
Which in reality, when you think about it is fine.
What percentage of jaguar transmissions do you think would fill their weekly inventory....quite small i should immagine of the overall market.

ZF is the manufacturer and Jaguar is the buyer....they were selecting the best available at the time which is going on to 15 yewars ago now.
This trans the 5HP24e is also used in BMW 5 and 7 series, Range Rovers, some Audis and Volvo's.

As for the 'sealed for life' routine, this was and is a requirement of the entire motor industry and not down to one or two manufacturers....most trans these days come as 'sealed for life' set-ups.

My wife's 2003 Peugeot 307 2.0 litre is fitted with a Porsche Tip-Tronic 4 speed box which is actually a ZF 4HP-19 which has had it's fluid changed once in 10 years.....it can be done, in a very convoluted fashion and I have found the easiest way with this car is to use the flush via cooler pipes method.

So, no point in waving the accusing finger at Jaguar.
The latest 6-7-8 speed boxes from ZF are none short of brilliant.
The early X350 (follow on from X308) did have some software problems in the trans. ECM but most of these were fixed under warranty via software flashes and updates.
Automatic transmissions have moved on and so have fluid specifications and be it on your own head if you use sub standard fluids.
You're not doing the box or yourself any favours....just adding to the 'bar room myths' that are bandied about all too often by the 'Great Unwashed' these days ;o]

 

xjay8, I'm still left wondering why they didn't go with the Merc. used in the SC models, or a more robust GM unit. I suppose the specs on the ZF indicated it was strong enough, and the 5 speed does give better fuel economy. But as far as lubricant goes, I totally agree with you.

 

The biggest flaw with the ZF transmission is the 'A' drum, as mentioned. I had an old BMW 540i with the ZF5HP30 transmission, which is basically a bigger version of the 5HP24 unit & could handle a higher torque-although it was not necesary with the standard BMW V8.

The 5HP30 had a similar problem & it was twofold.

Firstly, the plastic checkball valves in the gearbox valve block body would wear out & not seal certain required channels in the valve block. This would then allow high-pressure fluid 'spikes' to act upon the clutch drum & fracture it.

Secondly, because the clutch drum was not reinforced in the early transmissions, they were more susceptible to fracturing from these high pressure fluid spikes.

The fault, as with so many modern cars, originated from using plastic pieces instead of metal pieces.

We've seen plastic timing chain tensioners which can wreck engines when they fail, plastic-impeller water pumps which can fail & overheat the engine, plastic thermostat housings & radiator stubs which can fracture & leak coolant, and then the plastic valves in gearboxes.

Plastic should be reserved for making lemonade bottles-cars need metal for strength & reliability. All these plastic car parts in critical places only save a few grams of weight anyway, which is hardly relevant in a 1500kg car.

The latest generation of 6, 7 & 8 speed gearboxes-as well as the DSG gearboxes-have yet another design weakness. The gearbox control ECU is often mounted now on the gearbox & so fails prematurely with heat & vibration.

There have been tales of ordinary folk with DSG gearboxes on bog-standard family hatchbacks who have been landed huge repair bills when the gearbox ECU has failed because it's mounted in a stupid location by the manufacturer which is subject to heat & vibration.

At least the older gearboxes-including the ZF 5-speed units-had the gearbox ECU's mounted in more sensible places where they were less likely to fail.

Anyway, going back to the original subject of the fluid choice, I think xjay8 sums it up nicely-cost.

Dexron III is very cheap compared to the correct gearbox synthetics, and by adding the Lubegard to it, it makes the overall 'blend' still very cheap compared to the proper fluid.

However, even the extra cost of using the correct expensive gearbox fluid is a damn sight less than a gearbox overhaul later on-so let's hope the Lubegard blend really does do what they say it does for you

 

I don't disagree with anything said about using specified fluids. I wish I had asked about what he intended to use beforehand.....but then again, it never occurred to me that anyone would use anything else. I know better than to assume anything......but I slipped on that one. I would like to think, however, that some extensive testing was also done by LubeGard, but only they know that for sure.

 

Fair point & I'd have probably done the same thing too-I think most people would have expected a repaired transmission to automatically be filled with the fluid specified by the manufacturer.

The fluid affects the gearshift quality & particularly the torque converter lockup operation. With the older transmissons, the torque converter lockup clutch was either 'on' or 'off'.

When the newer generation of 5-speed transmissions came out, a lot of them had complex methods for gradual enagagement of the lockup clutch with electronic pulse-width-modulation techniques. The fluid then became a vital part of the operation procedure then as it's characteristics directly affected the lockup clutch operation.

That was one of the reasons why there was so much less flexibility in the choice of transmission fluid for the modern gearboxes...