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PS, Dexron is a spec that has been steadily improved over the years, so Dexron III is now VI I think. They are supposed to be backwardly compatible. But then you'll find lots of people who would argue with that. Personally, I'd use the latest Dexron, and not worry about it.
First of all, thank you for your service to our country!
+1 on Wix filters
Regarding the BKR6EIX-11 plug they sold you, the NGK website shows its heat range as 6 with a 5K ohm resistor.
The PFR5G-11 specified for your car in the Vehicle Care Handbook and on the NGK website has a heat range of 5 with a 5K ohm resistor. The IFR5N10 specified in the Vehicle Specifications manual has a heat range of 5 with a resistor of 5K ohms. Hmmm.
OK, I just looked at the Workshop Manual and it specifies the PFR6G-13E for supercharged engines, so the PFR5G-11 mentioned in a couple of the references I quoted earlier is wrong - those are for the normally aspirated engines only. The heat range for the PFR6G-13E is 6 and its resistor is 10K.
I wonder if your Autozone has PFR6G-13E plugs in stock?
PS, Dexron is a spec that has been steadily improved over the years, so Dexron III is now VI I think. They are supposed to be backwardly compatible. But then you'll find lots of people who would argue with that. Personally, I'd use the latest Dexron, and not worry about it.
Dexron VI has a significantly lower viscosity than Dexron III, and I found that in the ZF 4HP24 transmission in our '93 the torque converter would never fully lock up on Dexron VI. The best Dexron III equivalent I have found is Redline D4.
That said, I have had no discernible trouble using Dexron VI in the power steering system, so if your car originally used Dex III you should be fine with Dex VI.
BTW, I have read some very good things about the new Pennzoil Platinum (and Ultra Platinum) oil you purchased. That's all I'll say to hopefully avoid turning your thread into another oil debate!!!
How can some as simple as spark plugs be so frickin confusing?...lol. Would a fellow 2000 XJR owner who has changed out their spark plugs with NKG iridiums please pipe up and tell me which ones you used?
Also, is the Dexron for transmission fluid what we use for our power steering fluid or is there some mystery power steering fluid labeled Dexron that I can't seem to find?
So for transmission I can buy the EBay kit that Mark gave a link to and about 10 qts of Valvoline MaxLife ATF and that will be everything I need for the tranny fluid change plus I can use the same fluid for my Power steering?
The consensus on my air and oil filter is return the crappy STP ones and get either Mann or Wix correct?
Last edited by Jennifer S Flavell; 12-18-2015 at 01:44 AM.
I prefer Mann, but Wix is good. So far this has not turned into another major debate on lubricants, which is surprising considering the changes in ATF formulations.
The e-bay kit in post #20 has all OE MB parts and is a good value. The ESC kit with the german Febi fluid is also a good value for what's in it (post #7)
The connector will leak with the transmission filled -- great time to do the change out. It's a problematic part that causes many problems -- they leak internally. I will say again -- don't use the aftermarket URO part from e-bay.
I ordered the Mann trans kit and german Fuchs oil from Autohaus not too long ago for one of my MB's with the same transmission. The Mann trans kit is high quality. The aftermarket Mann air filter while not the same as the OE Jaguar is completely acceptable at 1/4 the cost - I currently have installed in one my XJR's.
Have you given the steering fluid a look on some white paper -- does it need to be switched out? Miles on the car?
It's hard to say what coolant your car would have had originally -- what's in it now? color?
If you search on the forum one of the techs listed them a few years back .. I have a set in the garage. They were originally simple platinum -- now they supply in the iridium. Unfortunately, he does not post anymore .... I can think of only one who still does.
Both of my cars are all original -- so I keep them that way. The Wix filters are normally high quality -- different then the OE Jaguar ... but I'm sure fine.
The cars were originally not supplied with synthetic oil. I use synthetic as they don't get many miles and are on a two year change interval.
This is true, I have not heard of engines being destroyed by any brand of filter. However, if you saw a Fram, and a Wix, in two, you will be able to observe that the Wix is much better made internally.
No. The debate over filters is similar to 'which beer is best' and not anything that correlates to actual field results on engines.
I run a company -- between my personal cars and company vehicles ... about 15 ... plus I have 5 older vehicles. I see a lot of filters. There is a difference between various aftermarket parts .. and the differences are obvious.
The question becomes ... will the differences matter.
I don't know what they are selling currently for the STP filter -- or how much it costs. The problem is one never knows from one year to the next who the supplier will be.
From all accounts Mann makes the Jaguar filter -- but if you get the aftermarket Mann filter .. it's not as nice as the Jaguar filter. Less pleats -- shorter pleats -- different paper ... it's not the same.
The Valvoline Maxlife ATF has a Dexron ii, iii, and vi spec, so is suitable for the PS, as well as the transmission.
You have to read the small print on the bottle, or find the info sheet on the website.
The PS fluid you bought is fine for the PS, but the Maxlife will work for both.
I'm not trying to talk Jennifer out of Valvoline Maxlife ATF, but for the record, it was Valvoline's previous generation of Dexron VI that I used for a couple of years in our '93 without realizing the torque converter was not fully locking up. Jaguars are designed to be so smooth that you may not realize when the transmission is not performing optimally. If you had asked me at the time if Valvoline Dexron VI was good in a ZF 4HP24 transmission, I would have said unequivocally, "Yes."
However, when I changed to Redline D4 at the recommendation of a fellow Jag owner, we suddenly had engine braking again when descending hills, and in Sport mode lower gears once again held longer coming out of curves. The difference between Normal and Sport modes was now dramatic. It was an "Aha!" moment for me. So even though Valvoline claims their Dex VI is backward compatible for Dex III applications, it did not perform optimally in our ZF 4-speed box.
As automakers have been under continuous pressure to improve fuel economy and reduce emissions, transmission fluids have been formulated with lower and lower viscosities. The fluid makers claim these newer fluids are backward compatible in earlier transmissions, but simple logic suggests a "thinner" fluid may not function optimally in a hydromechanical system designed for a "thicker" fluid.
The fluid originally specified for the gearbox in Jennifer's car was Shell ATF 3403 - M115. According to Shell, that fluid had a viscosity at 100C of 7.4 and a Viscosity Index of 189:
Redline Oil recommends their D4 ATF for applications where Dex II and III and Shell ATF 3403 - M115 were originally specified. The viscosity of D4 at 100C is 7.5 and the V.I. is 198, both numbers similar to Shell's specs.
Redline recommends its newer fluid, D6, for Dex VI and Dex III applications, but it does not recommend it for Shell ATF 3403 - M115 applications. The viscosity of D6 at 100C is 6.4 and the V.I. is just 166, both much lower than Shell's specs.
D4's higher V.I. means that it will lose less of its viscosity at higher temperatures, so according to Redline, a fluid suitable for Shell ATF 3403 - M115 applications should have both a higher viscosity than Dex VI and should not thin as much with rising temperature.
Here are the links to the specs of Redline D6 & D4:
I looked up the Febi 29449 ATF and its viscosity at 100C is 6.5, similar to Redline D6 and lower than D4/Shell ATF 3403 - M115. The Material Safety Data Sheet does not give the V.I.:
As for Valvoline Maxlife ATF, the viscosity at 100C is, are you ready?... just 5.91. And its V.I. is just 156. Both numbers are the lowest of all the fluids examined for this post, meaning it is much thinner than Shell ATF 3403 - M115 at lower temperatures, and thins even more with rising temperature:
Ok, bought the GM supercharger oil kit off of ebay, thanks 80's rule. Do I need to purchase all 4 things you listed for the transmission fluid change or just the kit?
Went to Autozone since they do a 10% military discount and picked up the following:
2 gallons Prestone Dex-cool 50/50 antifreeze & coolant.
1 liter Pentosine Super Dot-4 brake fluid
2 quarts Valvoline SYNpower 75w-140 gear oil
Duralast FF3504DL fuel filter
8 quarts Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 motor oil
STP S5618 oil filter (was a special with 5 quarts of the motor oil and sales guy looked up and said it was compatible with my 2000 xjr)
STP SA8720 air filter (they did not carry Mann filters and he looked up which STP filter for my car)
Now spark plugs he could not find the ones I listed above but according to his computer my car takes NGK BKR6EIX-11. I have seen these mentioned in the forums. I purchased 8 of them.
For power steering we could find nothing with Dexron III mentioned.
All Dexron fluids were in the transmission fluid area and none said Dexron III specifically but on the back you could find wording saying compatible. Too confusing so I held off buying that until I can get more clarification from you all.
Did I do ok on my purchases or should anything in particular be returned ASAP and something else gotten instead?
The Mercedes 722.6 does not come with a dipstick. It has a tube with a cap on it. The dipstick is a universal part and is super long; you use the dipstick and then when done you take it out and put the cap back in. The little red thing is the lock for the cap.
Whatever vendors and fluids and parts kits you go with you really need:
Dipstick
Cap (if missing)
Cap locks (you can buy a bunch pretty cheap)
Pan Gasket
Pan Filter
Solenoid
Fluid
My 98 XJR is nice that the transmission DOES have a drain plug on the torque converter(allowing a car being off, and you being able to drain the TC fully); my 2000 XKR does not. I'm fairly sure your car will NOT have a TC drain plug. Without a drain plug, the best course of action is the change what you can; you can change 5 quarts, which isn't the capacity, but then you drive around, mix the remaining old in with the new, and then change what you can again. The logic being this:
After First Change:
50% new, 50% old
After Second Change (just fluid, don't do filter and such again):
75% new, 25% old
You're not getting it all, but it's plenty good!
The other option is having a ton of fluid and with the car running but the transmission line disconnected at the radiator. You are using the transmission to pump the fluid through. You keep pumping fluid out, and adding more through the dipstick tube. You get it really quite clean that way.
If you do regular drain and fills like explained doing the 2 fluid changes, you're probably quite safe. Most owners do run to fail on transmissions, or many just change when an issue comes up (not always a good idea to do, but oh well).
For the air filter; the most important thing is to change them regularly. I do not like oiled K&N type filters as I've seen several that resulted in MAF sensor replacement (over oiling the filter being the cause). I like STP, Fram, whatever; just change it regularly. I check the air filter every oil change and usually replace at 6-12k miles.
While people like to talk about preferences on fluids and filters; the absolutely most important thing is that you're regularly doing the changes. Quality of parts matter, but the actual performing of the preventative maintenance itself is the most important aspect.
I personally run shorter intervals because I do a lot of low speed driving and short trips. Here's my replacement intervals if anyone cares. I posted this on another forum recently, and applies to all cars not just my Jaguars:
For car fluid changes:
-Oil and Filter. 3-5K miles. I use Mobil 1/Castrol Synthetic.
-Transmission Fluid and filter. 30-60k.
-Differential Oil. 30-60k (same intervals as ATF)
-Power Steering Fluid lazy swap; every 2 years. Lazy meaning syringe sucking from reservoir, change, drive a little; repeat until nice looking. Full change really only on component failures.
-Brake fluid. Flushed at all 4 wheels via bleeding every 2 years.
-Coolant. Drain and Fill every 2 years. No funky additives, no flushes unless a clog (rare with regular changes anyway).
-Supercharger Oil. Every 30k.
-Clutch fluid. Every 30-60k; same as trans.
-Convertible top hydraulic fluid or hydraulic suspension fluid; every 5 years.
-Anything with grease zerks; every year.
-Air filters every 6-12k depending on condition. I like paper, hate greased junk.
I'm not trying to talk Jennifer out of Valvoline Maxlife ATF, but for the record, it was Valvoline's previous generation of Dexron VI that I used for a couple of years in our '93 without realizing the torque converter was not fully locking up. Jaguars are designed to be so smooth that you may not realize when the transmission is not performing optimally. If you had asked me at the time if Valvoline Dexron VI was good in a ZF 4HP24 transmission, I would have said unequivocally, "Yes."
However, when I changed to Redline D4 at the recommendation of a fellow Jag owner, we suddenly had engine braking again when descending hills, and in Sport mode lower gears once again held longer coming out of curves. In fact, the difference between Normal and Sport modes was now dramatic. It was an "Aha" moment for me. So even though Valvoline claims their Dex VI is backward compatible for Dex III applications, it did not perform optimally in our ZF 4-speed box.
As automakers have been under continuous pressure to improve fuel economy and reduce emissions, transmission fluids have been formulated with lower and lower viscosities. The fluid makers claim these newer fluids are backward compatible in earlier transmissions, but simple logic suggests a "thinner" fluid may not function optimally in a hydromechanic system designed for a "thicker" fluid.
The fluid originally specified for the gearbox in Jennifer's car was Shell ATF 3403 - M115. According to Shell, that fluid had a viscosity at 100C of 7.4 and a Viscosity Index of 189:
Redline Oil recommends their D4 ATF for applications where Dex II and III and Shell ATF 3403 - M115 were originally specified. The viscosity of D4 at 100C is 7.5 and the V.I. is 198, both numbers similar to Shell's specs.
Redline recommends its newer fluid, D6, for Dex VI and Dex III applications, but it does not recommend it for Shell ATF 3403 - M115 applications. The viscosity of D6 at 100C is 6.4 and the V.I. is just 166, both much lower than Shell's specs.
D4's higher V.I. means that it will lose less of its viscosity at higher temperatures, so according to Redline, a fluid suitable for Shell ATF 3403 - M115 applications should have both a higher viscosity than Dex VI and should not thin as much with rising temperature.
Here are the links to the specs of Redline D6 & D4:
I looked up the Febi 29449 ATF and its viscosity at 100C is 6.5, similar to Redline D6 and lower than D4/Shell ATF 3403 - M115. The Material Safety Data Sheet does not give the V.I.:
As for Valvoline Maxlife ATF, the viscosity at 100C is, are you ready?... just 5.91. And its V.I. is just 156. Both numbers are the lowest of all the fluids examined for this post, meaning it is much thinner than Shell ATF 3403 - M115 at lower temperatures, and thins more with rising temperature:
Thanks for the info. Very interesting. Normally my instinct, with an older transmission, would be to go with the higher hot viscosity, which looks like the Redline D4.
Purchased the Mann filters off of eBay and will return the STP ones to Autozone.
The EBay kit Mark gave a link to says it does not fit my car but I found this one that says it does New Mercedes Dodge Jaguar Auto Trans Connector Auto Trans Filter Kit Germany | eBay. I still need the cap and clip and can't seem to find one on eBay that says it fits.
If I go with the Redline fluid can that also be used for the power steering? And holy crap at the price difference between Redline and Valvoline!
Don, my car has 96k miles on it and I am wanting to change everything out as a preventive measure since I did not get a maintenance history with it.
Last edited by Jennifer S Flavell; 12-18-2015 at 01:59 PM.
PS, Dexron is a spec that has been steadily improved over the years, so Dexron III is now VI I think. They are supposed to be backwardly compatible. But then you'll find lots of people who would argue with that. Personally, I'd use the latest Dexron, and not worry about it.
I've been using DEXRON VI in my P/S system for about 3 months now with no issue.
You are correct, DEXRON III and DEXRON VI are backwards compatible. BUT:
You can use DEXRON VI in a DEXRON III system but not DEXRON III in a DEXRON VI system if that makes sense. You can use 6 in a 3 but not 3 in a 6.
Purchased the Mann filters off of eBay and will return the STP ones to Autozone.
The EBay kit Mark gave a link to says it does not fit my car but I found this one that says it does New Mercedes Dodge Jaguar Auto Trans Connector Auto Trans Filter Kit Germany | eBay. I still need the cap and clip and can't seem to find one on eBay that says it fits.
If I go with the Redline fluid can that also be used for the power steering? And holy crap at the price difference between Redline and Valvoline!
Don, my car has 96k miles on it and I am wanting to change everything out as a preventive measure since I did not get a maintenance history with it.
This will work. I have it and can verify! The thing is that often when they list the cross references it's the same part, they're selling you the legwork of them looking up the cross reference.
The EBay kit Mark gave a link to says it does not fit my car but I found this one that says it does
That's because their list is not aware that the Mercedes transmission is used in the Jag. However, I can assure you that any kit intended for a 722.6 will fit the X308 XJR.
You are correct, DEXRON III and DEXRON VI are backwards compatible. BUT:
You can use DEXRON VI in a DEXRON III system but not DEXRON III in a DEXRON VI system if that makes sense. You can use 6 in a 3 but not 3 in a 6.
That is certainly the claim of the manufacturers of Dexron VI, but it was not my experience in our '93. And as I demonstrated in my previous post, the viscosity and viscosity index of Dex VI are significantly lower than those of Dex III, so the manufacturers' claims that Dex VI is backward compatibile is dubious.
Note that for its older 4-speed automatics, ZF still recommends Dexron III and not Dexron VI, or even its own newer fluids, LifeGuard 5, 6 or 8, for which ZF makes no claims of backward compatibility:
You would think that if newer fluids were backward compatible, ZF would recommend LifeGuard 8 for all of its transmissions, but it's still Dex III for most 4-speeds, LG5 for most 5-speeds, LG6 for most of the 6-speeds and LG8 for certain 6-speeds only. Obviously, ZF disagrees with Valvoline, who claims its Maxlife ATF will work in all of those ZF transmissions!
What does Valvoline know about its aftermarket fluid that ZF can't figure out when having its OE fluids manufactured? Or perhaps a better question, what does ZF know about its transmission designs that Valvoline doesn't know or believes can be safely ignored?
I just did a little research at various Mercedes Benz pages and may have found some helpful info. According to the page at the link below, the list of ATFs approved for the 722.6 transmission must comply with Mercedes ATF specification 236.14:
Spot-checking the list of approved fluids, all have viscosities at 100C of around 6.5, but their viscosity indices are around 185, with the exception of Shell ATF 134 (viscosity 6.2 and V.I. 180), and Motul ATF 134 (viscosity 6.6 and V.I. 192). Recall that the fluid Jaguar originally specified for the W5A580 / 722.6 gearbox was Shell ATF 3403 - M115, with a 100C viscosity of 7.4 and a Viscosity Index of 189. Mercedes has apparently subsequently determined that a lower 100C viscosity is acceptable, but still insists on a relatively high viscosity index. Here are links to the data sheets of several of the fluids that have been tested and approved by MB for use in the 722.6:
As a reminder, the published 100C viscosity of Valvoline Maxlife ATF is 5.91, and its V.I. is just 156, meaning it starts out thinner than any of the above oils and thins to an even greater degree with rising temperatures.
As I mentioned, I had no idea that our transmission was not operating properly on Dexron VI until I switched to Redline D4. As Klaus at authorized ZF service shop California Transmission Supply Co. explained to me, drivers can perceive additional gearslip as "improved smoothness," when in fact the gearbox is not functioning correctly.
Given the differences in published viscosities and viscosity indices as reported above, I have to seriously question whether either Maxlife ATF or Dexron VI can provide optimal performance in a Mercedes W5A580 / 722.6 transmission. It would seem more prudent to instead seek out one of the fluids tested and approved by Mercedes Benz.
Jennifer ... as you can see it can get complicated.
The XJR uses a transmission made by Mercedes Benz -- know as the 722.6 ... back when our XJR's were produced it was one of the only automatic transmissions that could handle the power produced by the supercharged engine. It was widely used in many MB's starting around 1995 in the V8 cars -- then moving into wider use. My 2002 E320 V6 wagon had the transmission and my 2001 Porsche turbo TIP also .... many other makes used it. MB no longer sells the original fluid 722.10 -- they sell a later version 722.14 that MB states is backward compatible. Some say the new fluid is fine ... others say it changes the way the car shifts.
So, unless you have some of the old fluid 722.10 around -- it's a later fluid or nothing. While MB no longer sells the .10 or .12 ... only the .14 .........you can still buy 722.12. Confused?
I often use AutohausAZ for my generic online parts source -- I check them first. A few times a year I place an order -- whenever I hit the free shipping amount $75.00. Great place for all kinds of stuff.
From all accounts -- Febi made the first MB fluid ... but Fuchs also makes fluid for MB. You can still get the Fuchs 722.12. The most important thing with the MB transmission is to get a fluid that says "approved" ... not just meets some specification. See photo. The febi bottle will also have it some place.
See what color your coolant is -- this is the color of mixed Jaguar fluid.
12-17-2015, 08:56 PM
