A new problem has cropped up on the XJR that my wife usually drives. Temperature has been in the mid 40s. Wife reports no issues.

About three weeks ago, I recall I had a harder time than usual starting the car. IIRC, I had to crank it quite a bit, but it did start and ran fine.

Yesterday, I drive the car to work. After sitting all night it starts fine. Drive it less than a mile to gas it up. When I go to restart it, it starts fine and then dies. Attempt a restart and give up after cranking 10 seconds or so. Crank it again and it fires up and runs fine. Drove it to work, and back home later in the day.

Read about the fuel pump issues (car has about 118K on it) and made a point on the drive home to really get on it and the performance was normal.

This morning, I do pretty much the same thing. Car starts fine, drive less than a mile to the same gas station. Shut it off, get breakfast, and it restarts fine then immediately dies. After three extended cranks, opened the hood and didn't smell anything. On the second extended crank, made a point to wait about 10 seconds after turning the key on, before going to start it. No difference. One the third crank, tried adding gas, no difference. Contemplated walking home and gave it one more try and it started normally. Drove it to work and it ran fine and had full power.

Once I got to work, I shut it down and let it sit for a minute, then restarted it and it started fine. This time I remembered to look at the tach and it read 0 while cranking (I think it has always done this) and didn't come up until the motor started.

Battery is less than 3 months old and it cranks strong.

Ideas? Since I've never done the fuel filter, I'm doing that this weekend. I'll pull codes as well, but I don't have a CE light. Tomorrow I'm going to try just driving it to work (10 miles) without making a stop.

I've searched and found a bunch of posts about fuel pumps, but my symptoms don't seem to fit that.

Thanks for any advice.

-Mike

 

Extended cranking on cold start is consistent with a bad secondary fuel pump. Your cars mileage and age also points to the fuel pump. To test it you can remove the 2 fuel pump relays, use a jumper wire from the battery to the relay socket and listen for the fuel pump.


There are several excellent posts on this procedure. Check the pumps before moving on to any other causes.


My car suffered from extended cranking on cold start and appeared to run otherwise normally including full acceleration. The cause was a bad secondary fuel pump

 

Thank for for the reply and I'm thinking the same thing now. It hit me this morning that the way it died at the gas station yesterday was just like it does when you pull the fuel pump fuse to depressurize the fuel system. When I went home from work late yesterday I had a hard time getting it started after it sat for 5 hours.

At lunch today I did a test to see if the "backup" would work. It was running normally and I shut it off. I pulled the primary pump relay. Car restarted okay, but was running rougher than normal. Then it wanted to stall, barely ticking over and didn't respond well to any throttle. Shut it off, and it would restart, but barely run. Put the relay back in, and it ran fine. Drove my second car back to work as the writing is on the wall for a stranding to occur. Strangely, I did not get the restricted performance mode from pulling the relay, but perhaps that's because I only tried it for a few minutes and never drove it that way. I also checked for codes before doing this and it came up clean.

To me, this rules out the fuel filter, as it is in common and also indicates the rest of the motor is in good shape. I've seen enough to do the pumps. Something is wrong with the secondary and I suspect the primary is fixing to say adios. Oh joy. I hope my arms are long enough to get at the fittings behind the diff.

-Mike

 

When I replaced mine I found the connector and wiring for the secondary pump was burnt so I had to splice in the new connector. Otherwise it is all plug and play to replace both pumps.


There is a current thread regarding cutting an access hole in the parcel shelf and leaving the tank in place. If you are comfortable cutting the sheet metal this procedure eliminates all of the problems of removing the tank

 

What a weekend. I've been working on cars since 1980 and this design has got to be one of the dumbest I've ever seen. After two days worth of work all I've managed to do is take out the trunk trim, drain the tank and get one of the two fuel lines loose. I understand completely why people cut the rear deck instead of dealing with this nonsense. At this point it makes me think those responsible for the fuel tank plumbing were lead by

The "AVOS" PVC pipe tool doesn't work because there is no straight shot to get it on. The proper tool doesn't work because the foam gasket on the bottom of the tank is off center just like this guy's was: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...e2/#post432567 The foam gasket causes the tool to hang up before it can be fully inserted to release the line. There isn't enough room up there to trim the foam.

Fortunately I've got a spare jag to practice on. A deeper tool may work and I'll try that first. At this point I'm also investigating what it takes to drop the rear subframe and taking a second look at the parcel shelf hack.

Jaguar depreciation? Be responsible for maintaining one and you'll understand. No wonder mechanics charge so much to wrench on these things. What should be a simple 2 hour fuel pump change has turned into quite the ordeal

-Mike

 

Welp, I think it's time to try this: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...73/#post239071

Homedepot and Lowes don't seem to carry solid lines anymore, but the True Value website has one and I think dneider's tool will work.

-Mike

 

Mike,

Sorry to hear you're having no fun. Just in case it may be helpful, have you seen this DIY on pump replacement via the tank removal method from Rob/atv007?

http://www.mediafire.com/view/377tqn...s_Rev._1.3.pdf


Please keep us informed.

Don

 

Thank you for that. That is a really good write up with good pictures. I did a lot of searching and missed it. He used the exact same quick disconnect tool that I'm using.

I also found the 5/16" tool didn't work and had to use the 3/8". Once I figured that out, the right side one came out relatively easy. My fingers are still sore this morning from trying to get the left side one out. My wife even tried as her arms are small enough that she could get both hands on it from either side of the diff and could not get the the tool to pop in.

Hopefully dneider's tool will work, as I'm loath to disassemble more than I have to. I've used quick disconnect tools before and generally work pretty easily. The tool goes in down to its shoulder and there is a click, and then you pull the connection apart. The key is usually the connector is in the clear and there is no interference. That foam seal is right up next to the connector on my car and it's preventing the tool from fully seating.

-Mike

 

Mike,

I had a similar problem when replacing the radiator on our '93 XJ40. The standard disconnect tools just wouldn't do the job. I suspect that the Jaguar components use Metric connectors but the tools available in the U.S. are SAE/Imperial. I eventually succeeded by making an adapter from thin-wall brass tubing to supplement the effect of the disconnect tool. Brass tubing is available at Hobby Lobby or modeling shops. Note how I had to cut down the brass tube to get at one of the connectors where access was limited. I don't know if this would give you any ideas that might apply to your current challenge, but just in case, here's a link to my photos:

Welcome to Jag-lovers - Members Photo Viewing Page


Don

 

dneider's tool worked like a charm. In less than 5 minutes after making the tool, I heard a satisfying "click" followed by a much more satisfying "pop!" as the second line came out. The only disassembly I had to do underneath was disconnecting the parking brake cable.

The hardest part was finding a 3/8" hard toilet connector as most hardware stores around me only carry the flexible ones. I was wrong about Lowes, above, as I found the raw material there:

Shop Watts 20-in Copper Toilet Supply Line at Lowes.com

It didn't take more than about 45 minutes to fabricate the tool, test it, and get the second line loose. It is the perfect size to get in there. One has to do it by feel and it doesn't take much force to release the tangs. You just have to slide it around a bit and apply a *little* pressure. Once it lines up it will click in and then you start tugging on the line and it comes out. The gasket makes for a nice surface to push on as well.

I tested it on my VDP using the main fuel line at the intake as it was easier to see how well the tool worked. The fitting at the fuel rail on the N/A motor is the same size as the fittings at the fuel tank of my XJR, and likely the VDP as well.

Attached are pics of my version of the tool. I made it following his pictures. The slot at the business end started out as just a cutting wheel width slot. I then used progressively larger drill bits to open it up - the copper is soft, so you just push them in there. I widened it up until it was about the diameter of the proper tool. This is where using the fuel connector at the engine for test fitting was handy.

I suspect the PVC pipe tool (AVOS) didn't work because the alignment to the connectors is different on the XJ compared with the XK. I've only seen reference to the PVC tool with respect to XKs. On my XJR, I really can't see how it would have worked as I couldn't see a way to align it on the connector without interference.

Thanks again to dneider and his detailed pictures of the tool: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...73/#post239071 . Now on to getting the tank out and seeing what my wiring harnesses look like.

-Mike

 

Mike - good news on getting the lines off - but I think your toilet is gonna leak now

 

Well, it's really going to leak now. Picture of the used tool is attached. It must have bent to conform to my hand and the pipe, but it did the job. Also attached is a picture of the cause of the ordeal part of this experience, the offset foam gasket on the bottom of the tank.

Both pumps look fine, as does the wiring, but one pump reads 28 ohms and the other reads 2.3 ohms, so something is definitely up. Sourced a pair of URO C2N3866 pumps from fcpeuro for $60 each with 2 day shipping. All the local auto parts stores around my want nearly $100 each for the Airtex style pumps. The URO pumps should be a drop in replacement and I'll have them in time for this weekend.

Compared with the '98, there is a benefit to having an '03, the left trunk strut does not have to be removed. My only difficulty in removing the tank was I couldn't disconnect the fuel pump electrical connector until the tank was mostly out as there simply was not enough room for my hand. Also curious, my tank had no ground wire. There is room at the bottom of the tank for about a gallon of gas that cannot be removed by siphoning.

If it wasn't for the foam tank gasket, the job would not have been that bad. Jaguar's idiot routing of the tail light harness also costs about 30 minutes worth of needless work, but their improvement in the tank vent plumbing is commendable.

-Mike

 

Well, it's fixed and it appears I also had a secondary pump failure. The new pumps read about 2 ohms, so that pump I had reading ~28 ohms appears to have failed open. It explains why my wiring was not damaged. After getting everything back together, the car starts fine now and it will run on either pump.

The fuel connections on the bottom of the tank are very difficult to reach. The offset foam tank gasket makes this a real chore. I re-glued my gasket centered (using interior trim adhesive) to make it much easier to install/remove. I wound up using the fuel line removal tool to install the lines as well because it is difficult to push them in as it is very hard to get leverage. I snapped the removal tool on the line and then used a piece of 1/2 CPVC pipe cut like the AVOS tool to push the line into place. Then I picked out the tool, leaving the line locked. Reach was very marginal, but possible. The first two pics shows the tank gasket issue.

As for the pump, I went with the URO C2N3866 as it is a direct fit. Cost was economical at ~$50 each from fcpeuro. I paid another $20 for two day shipping. Airtex pumps could be had for about as much. I reused (GASP!) the inlet pump screens because they just didn't look that bad. I let them soak overnight in Gumout and gasoline. One screen is darker than the other, but they both flowed like a sieve. Fuel tank insides were also spotless. One thing I did do was to install the darker screen on the secondary pump. Like the stock pumps, I can't hear the UROs running, so that's good. The third pic compares the stock pumps to the replacement as well as showing the new pumps in their brackets with the inlet screens installed.

Finally, the last photo shows the top of the tank. There are three hose connections that are tricky to disconnect without damaging the plastic fittings or the hoses themselves. I bet that large hose, with different diameters is made out of Genuine Jaguar Unobtainium. Once the top is off the tank, servicing the pumps means getting nearly elbow deep into the tank, which will have at least a gallon of fuel still in it. The bottom line is I wouldn't want to be doing this through a hole in the rear parcel shelf. IMO, it is best just to fight with the lines and do the job the right way.

-Mike