Hi, today I started working on my X308. Starting with dumping all the fluids to get to the timing chain.

QUESTION: After just having had very extensive discussion on this forum in the S-Type ('04) section, regarding the correct ATF for ZF 6hp26 (spoiler alert: It is basically ZF Lifeguard 6 and 3 others, which I cannot get here in Australia anyway, so Lifeguard 6 it is!), I have now the question:

What ATF will it be for the X308 transmission ZF 5hp24.

Well, I know, which one I can take for sure: Lifeguard 5 (and a few other vehicle-manufacturer branded ATFs, which are rebranded Lifeguard 5...) - see:
https://aftermarket.zf.com/remotemed...e-ml-11-en.pdf

And I can most probably not take just any old multi vehicle ATF (regardless of their false promises on the packaging), but as 5 gear is not as critical as 6 gear, I figured asking that question is worth it. Did someone walk already the extra mile to research this?

 

ESSO 71141 or Lifeguard 5 is the original fluid.

VW used G 052 162 A2

BMW used a 71141 under their own part number

FEBI makes a 71141 equivelent

 

Hi Peter,

Bob already listed most of the third-party options. From my notes, here are the fluids I am aware of that are correct in the ZF 5HP24:

ZF Lifeguard 5
ESSO LT 71141
Mobil LT 71141
Febi Bilstein Automatikgetriebeöl (ATF) nr. 29738
Pentosin ATF 1
Ravenol ATF 4/5 HP

Automaker-branded packaging of ESSO LT 71141:
Jaguar JLM 20238
BMW 8322 9407807
BMW 3 22 2 220 442
BMW ATF 71141
BMW LA 2634
BMW ATF-1
BMW ATF-4
Citroen Z 000169756
Mercedes Benz A 0019892203
Mercedes-Benz 236.11
Peugeot Z 000169756
Porsche 999.917.547.00
VW/Audi G 052 162 A1 / A2 / A6
VW LT 71141

Another fluid which may be correct but which I have not thoroughly researched is Fuchs Titan ATF 1. It may be the same fluid as Pentosin ATF 1 but I have not confirmed this. As of 2019, Pentosin is owned by Fuchs.

Cheers,

Don

 

Thanks, motorcarman and Don.
Looks like Fuchs has been on a buying spree: You write Fuchs bought Pentosin in 2019, and I know that Fuchs bought Nulon in 2020.

My situation with the ATF for X308 / 5hp24 is as follows:
Of that list of option above, I basically can get nothing in Australia, which one exception: There is one single seller offering Lifeguard 5, and that is even more expensive than Lifeguard 6.

I checked out all the KVs from the MSDSs:
Lifeguard 5: KV40 = 37
Esso 71141: KV40 = 37.2 / KV100 = 7.4
Pentosin ATF 1: KV40 = 36
Fuchs Titan ATF 1: KV40 = 30

and the one, which I have here anyway and don't know what to do with, because it can definitely not be used ilo. Lifeguard 6:
Nulon SYNATF: KV40 = 33.4 / KV100 = 7

Given that I think that the choice of ATF for a 5-gear transmission are possibly not as critical as it is for a 6-gear transmission, and given the extremely poor choice I have here in Australia, I am tempted to give Nulon SYNATF a go...

 

Hi Peter,

It's your transmission so you can do as you please. But remember that kinematic viscosity is only one important parameter. As the ZF representative told you, "those additives are of relevance as well."

It seems as though there must be some correct fluid available in Austrailia due to the sheer number of vehicles that used the ZF 4HP20, 5HP19 variants, 5HP24 and 5HP24A, all of which used ESSO LT 71141. Surely many of these vehicles were sold in Australia and are still being maintained. You might ask a local independent BMW specialist what fluid they use in the 5HP (bearing in mind that not all shops use correct fluids!).

From Wikipedia, here are some of the vehicles that need the same fluid as your X308:

The ZF 4HP20 is a four-speed automatic transmission for passenger cars from ZF Friedrichshafen AG. Introduced in 1995, it remains in production, and has been used in a variety of cars from Citroën, Lancia, Mercedes-Benz, Peugeot, and Renault.

Applications

• 1996–2004 Peugeot 406 V6 3.0
• 1996–2003 Mercedes-Benz Vito
• 1996–2003 Mercedes-Benz V-Class
• 1997–2001 Citroën Xantia V6 3.0
• 1997–2001 Citroën XM V6 3.0
• 1997–1999 Peugeot 605 V6 3.0
• 1998–2002 Alfa Romeo 166 V6 2.5, V6 3.0
• 1998–2005 Lancia Kappa, Phedra V6 3.0
• 1998–2008 Renault Laguna 3.0
• 1998–2002 Renault Espace V6 3.0
• 1999–2000 Renault Safrane V6 3.0 24V
• 2001–2008 Citroën C5 and Citroën C8, Peugeot 807 and Peugeot 607 with DW12 2.2 HDi
• 2004–2010 Peugeot 407 with DW12 2.2 HDi
• 2003–2006 Fiat Ducato 2.8 JTD(244 Baumuster)

• 5HP 19

  Introduced in 1996, it has been used in a variety of cars from Audi, BMW, Porsche, and Volkswagen Passenger Cars.
• Input torque maximum is 300 newton-metres (220 lb⋅ft)
• Weight: ~79 kilograms (174 lb)
• Oil capacity: ~9.2 litres (9.8 quarts)
• Applications
  
  BMW — longitudinal engine, rear wheel drive
  
• 2001–2003 BMW E46 — 330Ci M54B30
• 2001–2003 BMW E46 — 330i M54B30
• 2000–2003 BMW E46 — 320i M52TUB20/ M54B22
• 2000– BMW E46 — 323Ci M52TUB25
• 2000– BMW E46 — 323i M52TUB25
• 2000– BMW E46 — 328i M52TUB28
• 2000– BMW E38 — 728i M52TUB28
• 2001–2003 BMW E46 — 325Ci M54B25
• 2001–2003 BMW E46 — 325i M54B25
• 1999–2002 BMW E39 — 520i M52TUB20
• 1999–2002 BMW E39 — 523i M52TUB25
• 1999–2002 BMW E39 — 528i M52TUB28
• 2001–2003 BMW E39 — 525i M54B25
• 2001–2003 BMW E39 — 530i M54B30
• 2002–2005 BMW E85 — Z4 (M54 engine)

• 5HP 19FL

  Applications
  
  Volkswagen Group — longitudinal engine transaxle, front-wheel drive
  
• 1996–2001 Audi A4 (B5) 2.8 V6
• 1997–2003 Audi A4 (B5) 1.8T
• 1997–1999 Audi A8 (D2) 3.7 V8
• 1998–2001 Audi A6 (C5) 2.8 V6
• 1998–2003 Volkswagen Passat GLS 1.8T
• 1998–2003 Volkswagen Passat GLS 2.8 V6
• 1998–2003 Volkswagen Passat GLX 2.8 V6
• 2003– Volkswagen Passat GL 1.8T
• 2004–2005 Volkswagen Passat GLS 2.0 TDI [ZF 1060 030106,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_5HP_transmission#cite_note-3][1] VW GMR], [A73 Torque Converter]

• 5HP 19FLA

  Applications
  
  Volkswagen Group — longitudinal engine, transaxle permanent four-wheel drive
  
• 1996–2001 Audi A4 (B5) 2.8 V6 quattro
• 1997–2001 Audi S4 (B5) 2.7 V6 'biturbo' quattro
• 1997–2005 Audi A4 (B5) and Audi A4 (B6) 1.8 T quattro
• 1998–2001 Audi A6 (C5) 2.8 V6 quattro
• 2000–2003 Audi A6 2.7 V6 biturbo quattro
• 2000–2003 Volkswagen Passat GLS V6 4motion 2.8 V6
• 2000–2003 Volkswagen Passat GLX V6 4motion 2.8 V6
• 2004–2005 Volkswagen Passat GLS 4motion 1.8T
• 2001–2003 Audi allroad quattro 2.7 V6 biturbo
• 2002–2005 Audi A4 (B6) 3.0 V6 quattro
• 2002–2003 Audi A6 (C5) 3.0 V6 quattro
• 2002–2003 Volkswagen Passat 4.0 W8 4motion
• 1999 (DRN/EKX) transmissions used Induction speed sensors and 2000+ (FAS) transmissions used Hall Effect sensors. These transmissions are mechanically the same, but are not interchangeable.

  5HP 19HL

  Applications
  
  Porsche — longitudinal engine rear engine transaxle
  
• 1998–2003 Porsche 911 Carrera 996 3.4
• 2002–2003 Porsche 911 Targa 996 3.6

• 5HP 19HLA

  Applications
  
  Porsche — longitudinal engine rear engine transaxle
  
• 1999–2003 Porsche 911 Carrera 996 3.6
• 1999–2003 Porsche 911 Carrera 4S 996 3.6
• Porsche — mid-engine design flat-six engine, 5-speed tiptronic #1060, rear-wheel drive A87.01-xxx, A87.02-xxx, A87.21-xxx, [5HP19FL Valve Body, Solenoids, and Speed Sensor. Different Wiring Harness.] [Speed Sensor/Pulser part # ZF 0501314432]
  
• 2005–2008 Porsche Boxster 987 2.7 6-cyl
• 2005–2008 Porsche Boxster S 987 3.4 6-cyl
• 2005–2008 Porsche Cayman 987 2.7 6-cyl
• 2005–2008 Porsche Cayman S 987 3.4 6-cyl

• Simpson Planetary Gearset Types

  5HP 24

• Introduced in 1996, it has been used in a variety of cars from Audi, BMW, Jaguar, and Land Rover – all with a front mounted longitudinal engine.
• Input torque maximum is 440 newton-metres (320 lb⋅ft)
• Weight: ~95 kilograms (209 lb)
• Oil capacity: ~9.9 litres (2.2 imp gal; 2.6 US gal)
• Applications
  
• 1996–1997 BMW E31 — 840Ci M62/B44
• 1997–2001 BMW E38 — 735i M62/B35
• 1997–2001 BMW E38 — 735iL M62/B35
• 1997–2001 BMW E38 — 740i M62/B44
• 1997–2001 BMW E38 — 740iL M62/B44
• 1998–2001 BMW E38 — 730d M57
• 1997–2003 BMW E39 — 540i M62/B44
• 2000–2003 BMW E39 — Alpina D10 Bi-turbo
• 1997-2003 Jaguar XJ Sport 3.2 V8
• 1997–2002 Jaguar XK8 V8 4.0L
• 1998–2003 BMW E53 — X5 4.4i
• 1998–2002 Jaguar XJ8 4.0 V8
• 1998–2001 Jaguar XJ8 Vanden Plas 4.0 V8
• 1998–2001 Jaguar XJ8 L 4.0 V8
• 2001–2003 BMW E53 — 4.6is V8
• 2002–2003 BMW Z8 — Alpina 4.8 V8
• 2002–2003 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0 V8
• 2003–2005 Range Rover (L322) — With BMW M62/B44 engine

• 5HP 24A

• Four-wheel drive version used in Audi (quattro) and Volkswagen Passenger Cars (4motion) marques of the Volkswagen Group:
• Input torque maximum is 430 newton-metres (320 lbf⋅ft)
• Weight: ~142 kilograms (313 lb)
• Oil capacity: ~11 litres (2.4 imp gal; 2.9 US gal)
• Applications
  
• 1997–2003 Audi A8 (D2) 4.2 V8
• 2001–2002 Audi A8 (D2) 6.0 W12
• 1998–2003 Audi S8 (D2) 4.2 V8
• 1999–2004 Audi A6 (C5) 4.2 V8
• 1999–2004 Audi S6 (C5) 4.2 V8
• 2000–2003 Audi A8L (D2) 4.2 V8
• 2002–2004 Audi RS6 (C5) 4.2 biturbo V8
• 2002–2011 Volkswagen Phaeton (Typ 3D)

Cheers,

Don

 

With fuchs correct oil for the zf is Titan ATF 4000. Or ATF-1.
I'm sure that you can buy Castrol Transmax ATF-Z.
Transmax datasheet pdf.

 

Esso, Pentosin, Fuchs in the above recommended types are all not available in Australia.
Castrol Transmax ATF-Z is the first one mentioned, which is actually available in Australia. And not too expensive.
It is full synthetic and I noticed that the datasheet (linked above) mentions use ilo. Lifeguard 5. (KV40=38 / KV100=7.5)

Reminder:
Nulon full synthetic SYNATF also claims that that can be used ilo Lifeguard 5 (well, OK, they went overboard when they claimed that it is also good as Lifeguard 6, which can't be, but Lifeguard 5 might well be). (KV40=33.4 / KV100=7)

But the thing I am struggling with:
I well know that KV is not the whole story, but that is all I can see, as information about all those products is somewhat limited.
Thus: How can anybody know that Castrol would be any better (BOTH, regarding "ilo. Lifeguard 5 suitability" OR credibility of claiming any kind of suitability)?
Would using Castrol Transmax ATF-Z be any less of a gamble than using Nulon SYNATF?

 

I can see Lifeguard 6 at a few Australian suppliers (they also have Lifeguard 5). Also some are selling Lifeguard 6 on Australian Ebay.
https://automotivesuperstore.com.au/...cts&p=0&is_v=1
https://mjproducts.com.au/shop/zf-li...nge-rover-bmw/
https://www.sparesbox.com.au/search?...&type=products

 

Hi Peter,

Unfortunately, Castrol is guilty of some of the same implausible claims as Valvoline when it comes to their transmission fluids, so caveat emptor.

M.'s suggestion that you check Australian eBay is a good one. Try searching all of the known correct fluids. In the U.S., I have purchased a lot of fluids from eBay sellers, one of which has a distribution center near me so shipping often only takes one or two days.

To answer your question about assessing non-approved fluids, you have to get in to the actual published ingredients, starting with the base oil, then moving on to the additives. If the ingredients are not listed as "proprietary" or "trade secret," they will have a chemical reference number (CAS is the most frequently used standard in the U.S., but other standards are used around the world). You can search the CAS number to learn more about the chemical. Sometimes you can even find information on how that chemical is used (e.g. as an anti-corrosion or anti-foaming agent or as a friction modifier).Challenges for us laypersons include the fact that only toxic or hazardous ingredients must be disclosed on the Material Safety Data Sheets, and also you will find that different MSDS's for the same product will show different (but usually overlapping) ranges of an ingredient's mixture proportion. Companies are naturally as vague as they can get away with about disclosing their formulations.

It's far safer for the life of your transmission internal components to find a fluid known to be correct, even if it costs more than a "multi-application" fluid like Valvoline, Castrol, Nulon, etc. You only change your transmission fluid every 50K miles or more, so when amortized over all those miles the cost of the fluid is very low, and cheap insurance for protecting the second-most expensive component in the car.

One of the links M. provided shows LG5 at $36 per liter. Have you called any of the auto dealerships such as Volkswagen or BMW to check pricing on their brand of LG5?

EDIT: Have you seen this at the Ravenol Australia website?

https://ravenol.com.au/product.php?code=1212104

Cheers,

Don

 

I've have replaced different Fuchs oil to different automatic gearboxes without any issues ever. Also to many 6speed zf and 8 speed too. I have also replaced oil with castrol brand too. Without any issues. Castrol is the way you should go. It is not that difficult when you can easily buy oil that is made by world known brand and brand that is trusted over the world. You can buy newer oil than what was desrcibed when the gearbox was designed and manufactured. It is not going to explode or melt because doing that. Oils are backwards compatible in many cases.

 

Hi Vauxi,

That sort of casual approach to transmission fluid selection can lead to premature transmission failure. If you are running a Castrol fluid in the Mercedes-Benz transmission in your XJR I would strongly recommend that you do more research on the properties of the fluid you used compared to the fluids M-B has approved for your gearbox.

Fluid-related failures often take tens of thousands of miles to occur, so many owners don't realize the harm they may be causing by using an incorrect fluid. But the transmission manufacturers are very clear. As an example, see the warning in this snip from a ZF document:



Many third-party fluidmakers claim their fluids are "backward compatible" with older fluids. A great example is Dexron VI, which was claimed to be backward compatible for use in older transmissions for which Dexron II or III was originally specified. Following this claim, I used Dex VI in a ZF 4HP24 for a couple of years. Only when I changed to a good Dex III type fluid did I realize that with Dex VI the torque converter had not been transferring power properly. When I changed to the Dex III equivalent (Redline Oil D4 ATF), the transmission suddenly felt "hooked up" again and the sense of constant slippage was gone. The reason? The kinematic viscosity of Dex VI at 40°C is 28.5 mm2/s, while the KM of Dex III at 40°C is 38 mm2/s! Despite the claims, the viscosity of Dex VI is far too low to use in a Dex III transmission.

It is telling that even though ZF Lifeguard 5 is similar in physical properties to Dexron III, ZF still recommends Dexron III in most of its 4-speed transmissions but recommends Lifeguard 5 in its 5-speed boxes. It does not claim that Lifeguard 5 is backward compatible for Dexron III applications. And it also does not claim that Lifeguard 6 and Lifeguard 8 are "backward compatible" for use in the older transmissions. The fluids are very different and ZF insists we use the fluids it specifies for each type of transmission.

We second-guess the transmission designers at our peril.

Cheers,

Don

 

> "caveat emptor"...
Good one! I have a major in Latin, but I did not now that expression. Of cause I knew what caveat means (as in "cave canem"), but Cicero, Ovid and Caesar did not write much about people buying stuff, thus I did not know "emptor"... (...only emperor...)

Ebay: Of course I checked ebay here - up, down, sideways and crossways... plus I googled all the usual automotive retailers.
Good pickup from M. regarding what little here is:
Yes, Lifeguard 6 is available and I have bought during the last couple of weeks 40L of Lifeguard 6 from exactly the source you found: mjproducts (20L directly from them and 20L via ebay from them). But now I am after Lifeguard 5, and you also found the only source for Lifeguard 5: It is automotivesuperstore. It is the source, which I referred to above when I wrote that Lifeguard 5 is even more expensive than Lifeguard 6.

I will continue trying to source something better than "pani et ludi (circenses)"-ATFs... (loosely translated into "crappy ATF-stuff to keep the common people happy").
Plus, I already wrote a message to a possible supplier of Esso, buy neither do I know, if they really sell the 71141 here nor what the price is.

PS: I should mention the obvious: Whatever ATF can be seen on ebay, which however is not being send from Australia, is not an option due to prohibitive postage costs due to the weight.

 

Don B. Wasn't we talking about zf boxes and not mb? Of course wrong oil in automatic gearbox will not work at all. That is for sure. Castrol has different oil for the dexron III and that oil does not meet the lifeguard 5. I've done 80 thousand km's with Toyota a340 box after i replaced original oil years ago with the BG atf (black barrel, don't remember type) oil. It was surely at least dex III and box has not yet broken down. And no hiccups what so ever. And Yes, a340 is completely different box.
I know that there is many cases where specification in oil is only claim and therefore gearbox does not work propely. I do have experienced this. And different oil brand did the trick.

 

Yes...that is the short version of "Caveat emptor, quia ignorare non debuit quod jus alienum emit"
which means.... Let a purchaser beware, for he ought not to be ignorant of the nature of the property
which he is buying from another party. The problem with that in this instance, is the outright mis-
representation of the fluid by the manufacturers as being compatible. It is good we have some
experience with this and can avoid problems.

 

Thanks Don. I always tend to translate Latin closer to the actual words, even if it sounds a bit rougher..:
Buyer beware, because he (the buyer) did not have to be (ignorant) ignoring what legal right (= right or item) he bought from a stranger.
...or in one word: "uffgepasst!" (that is German, but not really, because it is slang used only in Hesse)

But what I find troubling, is that there does not seem to be any Customer-protection in place... Not even in the US, which "invented" liability laws.
Why aren't the Multi-vehicle-ATF-suppliers afraid of law-suits against them as a result of their misrepresentation of the properties of their product?

 

Probably because proof would rest with the plaintiff and said proof would be very difficult to affirm.
Reasonable doubt would always be there due to the time it would take to show a problem and the
multitude of parts that fail even with proper fluid in place.

 

Thanks Randy, that is what I was afraid of. So the snake-oil sellers are everywhere...
And I just noticed that the full version of Caveat emptor came from you - I did not check, I just automatically assumed it came from Don...

So with the snake oil seller being everywhere, the old German saying "Der Kunde ist Koenig" does not have much meaning anymore these days.
Translation: "The customer is king". And even though it would sound great in Latin, I don't think this quote has been coined yet: "Emptor emperor est".

 

The customer is KING ultimately, but not always first.

Sometimes the word needs to become known to all before the truth is discovered.
(try to never become the first victim)

 

UPDATE:
I could solve my ATF problem. I.e. I dodged the bullet a second time of having to resort to a Multi-Vehicle ATF, with all the risks involved. (First time: S-Type 6hp26 after finding a source in AUS for Lifeguard 6).
The price for Lifeguard 5 at Automotivesuperstore in Australia would have been A$ 724. That would be mad. I could not find any other source here for 20L of Lifeguard 5.

But as mentioned above, I did find after extensive internet search a possible source for Esso LT 71141:
https://www.mobil.com/en-gb/passenge...l-atf-lt-71141 (<-- MSDS)

I was not sure, if they sell to the public, nor if their "price on request"-listing was up to date, nor what their price was.
But I received a reply, plus after asking for a cheaper freight service (compared to their first quote), I got now a price of A$ 494 delivered for 20L. I'll go for that.

I noticed, that Esso LT 71141 is semi-synthetic, while Lifeguard 5 is full synthetic... Does anyone know, if that is of any relevance?

In case, there is someone else in Australia, looking for Esso LT 71141 - this is where I will order it:
https://imperialoil.com.au (in Victoria)
https://imperialoil.com.au/single-pr...141-13-09-2018 (<-- Esso 71141 listing)
https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws....71141-data.pdf (<-- another MSDS)

 

Lifeguard 6 is semi-synthetic, and the 6HP transmissions were originally claimed to be "Filled for life." So I wouldn't be surprised if Lifeguard 5/ESSO LT 71141 is also semi-synthetic. Since it's what ZF specifies for use in the 5HP transmissions, I don't think we need to be the least bit concerned that it is not full-synthetic.

Cheers,

Don