I have plums's info, the info, steve's battery info, and the info in the two pdf's.

I have no idea what order to do the 4 procedures in.

So I will do battery thing Steve suggested, then plums' suggestion and then see it it runs.

 

If you prefer you can just disconnect the battery and leave it for a couple of hours, the result will be the same.

 

This what I was asking about a few posts ago. I reused the gaskets and there already was some oil in the spark plug holes.

 

It started and is running rough at 900 rpm.

At least it's some progress.

It's been running for 3 minutes, won't stall but sounds like it could.

The rpm's aren't even, it's pulsating. I haven't even touched the gas pedal in hope that it will repair itself.

Thanks all for getting me to 1st base.

I do suspect the oil in spark plug possibility. I would think that if 1 spark plug was fouled that it would run like this.

It's sounds pretty rough, I'm not sure if I should rev it out. It's pulsing.

 

I just gave it a little bit of gas and it stalled.

Since I have new gaskets, I am thinking of taking off the bank 1 cam cover, checking the spark plugs and cleaning if needed, and if there is oil in the spark plug holes, reinstalling with new gaskets.

I have no idea what else to do next.

I also will check the rubber donut that goes on top of the throttle body. I have mine positioned so that the wider part is at the bottom, and am not sure if that is correct.

I know that most would say to get a code reader. The truth is that I'm not sure I want to go any more money into this. I feel like a guy at a slot machine saying "just one more and I'll be ok". Almost cocaine like. My wife wants me to throw the car away and admit I lost $4K. I've never major screwed up in 35 cars in 35 years before this so, that coupled with a recent death is why I come off as not a happy camper and I do apologize for that.

Also, one real bad thing about doing the fuel pump from inside the car is that although it was windy and I had the doors all open there was really no way not to be getting a lot of nasty fumes. And although access to the tank was good, to be wearing my respirator would have been too cramped.

My best call is to take off the cam cover and see if the plugs are ok. I'll make some coffee and if no one chimes in with a better idea I'll do that next.

 

I have been looking into getting a similar XJ8 but your post is scaring me away. I thought I would be able to change out the tensioners myself but you seem to have much more experience than me and are having a bad time of it.

This thread is like a bad Jaguar soap opera, I can't wait to find out what happens in the next episode.


It's going to feel great when you finally solve the problem and have that her running like a dream. I hope to see that post soon.

 

Thanks DctrRoss... stay tuned.

For about 2 months my wife and I read reviews of cars trying to find out what to buy next.

We saw nothing but great reviews of these Jaguars, very few bad experiences.

I install my own windshields, do motor/trans swaps, tuneups, brakes, steering column rebuild and have done all my own maintenance since the 70's and I'm apparently unable to do the secondary tensioner swap!

In the early 90's I cut the body off of a '69 Chevy and put a fiberglass Jeep body in the middle. I made casts and made my own fenders and truck bed. I got it street legal with the DOT here in Hawaii and was recognized, if you can believe it, as an automotive manufacturer.

Another time I made a mold and made a reverse opening hood for a late 70's Cadillac. It worked!

The reason I tell you this isn't to impress you, because none of it was that great, but it does absolutely amaze me the difference between what I expected with this car and what has transpired.

I'm not working on the car much today, I'm too angry, I feel sick.

I'm angry at myself. I know better. I shouldn't have let myself end up in this position.

 

If the engine is hunting it's one of the 3, fuel/air/spark.

Check fuel pressure while running if it varies - is the pump swapped like for like? is it 40psi
Any air leaks on the induction?
Plug wells, all free of oil?

Confirm these points and get back to us - this will be defeated. I'm going to pm some Jag Tech's onto this

 

Let me also add that cars are like shoes and what works for one person will probably not for the next. It's a personal thing and logic only sorta works.

And...

A lot of how we judge things is in comparison to what we've had before.

If you had a Camry or an Accord, and you get a Jaguar, you might well think you are in heaven.

I on the other hand, had Buicks and Caddy's with engines that were finished decades before I bought them. The engine in my Chevy has been in continuous production for over 50 years. The engine in my Jag about 2. Speaks for itself.

So by comparison, when people say they find their Jag powerful, I don't... until you hit 80 mph, but on Oahu you're lucky if you can go 40.

So a lot of it is in comparison to what you are used to.

But to find out they designed the car so that the battery (spark) and the gas tank (combustable) are basically in the same room as the occupants (humans life)... youza, the guys at Jaguar didn't have a Scottish father like I did!

 

Thanks Sean.

The fuel pump was from O'Rielly: Precision Fuel Pumps E16006 - In-Tank Electric Fuel Pump | O'Reilly Auto Parts

I don't have a fuel pressure gauge.

From what I can tell the induction, everything pre-throttle body, is tight. I removed the MAF and it's clean.

My next step is to check that the spark plug holes aren't filled with oil. That's my gut feeling, that it's because I reused the gaskets. You could say that it's my fault... I'd say if Jaguar had finished the job correctly I wouldn't have to.

There seems to be very little redundancy in the design. It reminds me of a house of cards where if everything isn't just so, it crumbles.

One time I started up a Chevy 350 that hadn't run for a long time, with a new install distributer and rebuilt carb. I had no idea where the adjustments were at, but it started right up and ran at 80 rpm. 80, not 800. That's design redundancy.

I'm just real angry and feel sick so it's best I don't work on it right now as I'd have no patience if I dropped a screw somewhere you'd probably be hearing about me on CNN.


Q: Does anybody have any data on the actual, real life fail rate of secondary tensioners? If you took 100 1999 XJ8's and drove them 100k miles, would 3 fail? Or 97? Or 50? or...

I have no sense of that at all and it is important because all of this happened because it was this issue that scared into not driving my car since I bought it and since it has only 56k mi, and will be a total rust out in 5 years or less, it's doubtful the car will see 80k mi let alone 100k in it's life.

So I have absolutely no idea whether I was being prudent changing the tensioners, which is what started this nightmare, or being an idiot.

 

It was too hot for me to work on the car today so I thought I'd post some pics of yesterday's massacre.

Ugly - yes. The worst thing is if the next guy who does a fuel pump replace on this car doesn't notice the access panel until he's putting it all back together after doing it by the book.

I still haven't figured out what the heck they mean in the manual when they say "76.70.37" so to save the next guy from going through the manual page by page:

rear seat cushion pg 2166
rear seat backrest pg 2156
rear panel shelf pg 2086

Is there an index in the manual?

I did need to remove the seat belts, and you need a torx T50 bit for them.

The seat belts retracted and now I'm fighting to see how to pull them out. It could be that I've wrecked them. Lovely.

The red arrows in the last pic (I'm guessing) are where some earlier or maybe other than for USA seat belts attached. They are not used in my car.

I wet down some cardboard and put that on top of the tank for a flame arrestor. Later I wet down an old sheet, then put it in the washer on spin, and then threw that over the tank for additional safety. The Dremel makes plenty of sparks cutting the metal.

My trusty Dremel, about 5 years old and well used got hot and croaked with 4" left to cut so I got the red cheap unit for $20 and was surprised that it was actually quite good.

I use 1 1/2' fiberglass reinforced cut off wheels and I get a big bag for about $15. They break so I put small washers on each side (yellow arrow) and that helps them a bit. Still, they wear down pretty fast and I think I used 6 to make the total cut. The non-fiberglass reinforced wheels are useless and break when you look at them.

I left a "hinge" at the back. There was ample room to work on the pump.

If you cut out the piece completely and placed it on a donor car and cut out a piece with an additional 1" all around it you could make a nice panel.

To get the hoses off: I moved the clamps down off of the hoses. Then I used a flat screw driver and a hammer to loosen the ring, and once the pump assembly was loose I could lift it up and that gave me room to remove the hoses. I couldn't see any way of removing the hoses before I loosened that big ring, especially with older hoses that are a bit stiff.

The clamp type hose clamps are a pain and vise grips worked the best for me on them. The screw type hose clamps worked best with a 6 mm socket rather than a flat top screwdriver.

Inside the pump is held on with a 7 mm socket.

When the brackets were added I should have used 4 or more, but I only used 2.

The aluminum tape is neat stuff. It's very sticky like contact cement and conforms to shapes in a very easy to work with way.

With the tape added it was very strong, I really don't think you'd ever be able to tell once the car was put back together.

Once the panel is cut, I think if you practiced by the 3rd time you'd probably get a fuel pump replace down to 45 min without too much trouble.

 

Nice pictures. Does the access hatch need to be as big as that?

What was the problem with the fuel pump in the end? Was it the link lead or the pump?

BTW, did you change the fuel filter? The things can actually get to the point where you could burst a lung trying to blow through them. It is mounted behind the left rear halfshaft on the frame. Get a filter for a 2000 Chubby Suburban.

 

Thanks plums. The link lead wasn't burnt whatsoever. I didn't hook up the old pump but there's fuel at the fuel rail so it must have been the pump.

At the rpm's they operate at, like hard drives, it's amazing they last more than a year to me. Even more amazing they don't spark and blow up.

No, I didn't change the fuel filter. I know I should of course. With the car being so low and the tiny jack points I'm very uncomfortable raising the car and would rather let Sears do that I think.

Wouldn't the fact that in the last few days I've heard the car rev at 5-6k rpm smoothly suggest that the fuel filter isn't clogged, as the fuel amount required at that rpm would be much greater than required at 900 rpm? The pump is going the same speed so it should cover 900 rpm if it can cover 5000 is my thinking.

Also, the car had dealer service 10k miles ago, if that means anything it was up to date at 46k or so. I'm not sure when the dealer would have done the fuel filter. The car has 56k on it. Absolutely the fuel filter will get done but I will do the spark plugs first as that seems more likely the culprit.

As far as the hole size: I was guessing and I didn't know how much I'd have to tilt the pump assembly to get it out, so I decided to go a little big rather than have to cut some extra after.

Actually, if I were to redo it I don't think I would cut it smaller. There was pretty much the exact amount of clearance there to make it right. Any smaller would make it easier to get cut.

I only got cut on the hole in the tank which was extremely sharp.

You could even cut it bigger. Part of why I cut where I did was because of how convoluted the panel is.

If I were to redo it I'd try and make the curves a little nicer, but in reality it's a bit like sanding the 2x4's inside the walls of your house.

 

Interesting thread- I will read the whole things after I post this-

1. Listen to Sean. Proceed with his suggestions, in order. Answer the questions he asks.
2. See #1

3. I know how you feel. I bought an engine and went through the trouble of R&Ring the trans AND engine for the swap and it would sputter but not start. I was...let's just say unhappy.

I poured a little bit of oil in the cylinders, still no workie. Now I was really annoyed. I called it a night, checked Jag forums and went to bed in a bit of a bad mood. I was very concerned I may have done all that work and spent money on a bad engine. ($500, so I didn't feel TOO bad)

Next day- checked all my connections, then did what I should have done in the first place- checked the compression. 30, 30, 60, 90, you get the picture. Now I am beyond annoyed and about to blow a fuse. I got so irritated, I pour a significant amount of oil in #1 and take a reading- 150 psi. Hmm. I begin to cool down. I do the same (a bit less oil) in the other cylinders and they all read higher. Now I am almost happy. Put it together and BOOM- it starts right up. After the smoke finished burning off (short drive every day for three days) it passed smog with FLYING colors and has been running trouble free for the last few months.


MORAL- Sometimes it takes a bit longer to get to the solution, but the finished product is well worth the effort. My lovely spouse also asked me whether it was ever going to run (with skeptical looks) but she happily drives it when she can peel the keys from my daughter.... it didn't help much when I was diagnosing for her to chime in though.

I GUARANTEE that if you stick to it, post your findings and let the experts chime in, you will be driving in short order. All cars go Suck,Squish,Bang,Blow- this car may have more "stuff", but ultimately you will find out it is a problem with one of these. Look at the bright side- if you strip EVERYTHING back to the heads, and put it all back together methodically, checking everything, it will only take you around 4 hours max.

 

Thanks dsnyder for your kind words. I really appreciate it.

When I read that your car has been "running trouble free for the last few months" I thought of my wife's 217k Caprice wagon that has been near trouble free for the last 20 years. Time will tell if your Jaguar is as dependable.

It's 7:00 am Friday a week after my botched secondary tensioner job. I have hardly had any sleep or eaten normally since that happened. It's because, despite what people might think, I am an experienced car guy, been paid to work on Rolls Royce, Mercedes and Hondas, and I'm angry at myself for letting myself get into this position.

I would never have bought this car if I'd known it had an interference engine. By that I mean an engine that has valves and pistons that occupy the same space at different times and if the timing is off the engine destroys itself.

Lots of cars have engines like that and they're all wrong, in my opinion, because there are lots of great engines that don't have that "feature", and most engines at some time or another will end up with their timing off. So it's a booby trap you don't need to include on any engine.

If the Jaguar engine was not an interference engine, the whole secondary tensioner issue would not be a life or death issue.

Combined with the plastic secondary tensioners that any idiot could see would never last and some guy in Hawaii ends up spending weeks angry instead of helping his wife through the loss of her (and my really) Mother.

My understanding is that the main selling point for designing an engine that way is to make the engine lower in height, and thus the hood of the car is lower, lighter so gets better gas mileage, and mostly, groovier to look at.

But what a risk to introduce for such small gains!

I liken it to chick who has large breasts but "needs" to get them enlarged to 44DDD, gets a loan for the $20K operation, and gets an infection and dies.

That's an example of what is going through my head and why I'm having a hard time even thinking about working on my 99 XJ8 today.

I'm cleaning up someone else's mistakes.

This is not worth what it's done to my life.

 

Dude. It's a car. It is NOT ruining your life.

Go grab a beer, walk out and stare at it for an hour and think about the steps of troubleshooting that you have done, and what can be FOR SURE eliminated as a problem- that will narrow things down a bit.

I am having a VERY similar experience with a 2001 VR6 jetta, except it is electrical, transmission, smog, and water pump. The VW forums make jaguars look like the most reliable car ever built. But I also realize that when I am done with the work that it needs, my daughter will have a car she can keep and drive, pretty trouble free- for years.

I have one more tale that I forgot- I bought a 1998 XJ8 with a broken timing chain. I towed it home, bought a new chain and a tensioner- (only one side was broken) I replaced it and the car started right up. My son and I were high fiving each other and it looked like I had picked up a bargain. One problem- I skipped a step, and did not replace the other side. two minutes later, while idling- the other one let go and snapped the timing chain, and bent three valves. At the end of the day I replaced the valves and put it back together, realizing my desire to part it out or sell it was based on my frustration and not the best course of action. I sold it at a tidy profit a few months later and immediately bought another one.

SO- step one. Take compression readings and let us know what you find.

FYI- the fuel filter is cheep and only takes about 7 minutes to replace.

 

I feel it reading the above post Ian.

I'll tell you a tale...
I looked at buying an XJR before considering only one - the ltd ed 100. It took over 18 months to find one and buy it. I used it every day, and really enjoyed it driving all over the country.
Six months along I take my better half to a hotel for a weekend away in the Lake District, a stunning part of the north of England. It has it's own micro-climate, you can see sun, rain, gales, and snow in the same hour, let alone day!

I parked the car in the hotel car park which backs onto a river. We had a fantastic meal, an after dinner walk taking in the views and air then retired for the evening.

In the morning I awoke to a banging on the door, the hotel manager required me downstairs immediately, so I go down and was guided to the car park completely flooded with over 30 cars now under water, including mine, now a total loss...that pretty little river now a raging brown torrent running through the hotel grounds.

It seemed like a flash flood with overnight rain had not only ruined our weekend by destroyed my car.

2 years later I've a car that is better than new, every nut, bolt and washer have been through my hands and into a brand new bodyshell.

Many times during the rebuild process I asked myself if I was mad, she did too....but every time I drive that car I feel pride and satisfaction.
I just hope you do too after getting over the sickener.

Get on with your life and when you feel up for it, fix it. You've done good work so far...

 

Thanks for the replies.

I just took off the right side cam cover and the gasket was cracked a bit and I thought that that might be causing a vaccuum leak.

I took out the spark plugs and the rear two on that bank did have a some oil in them but the contact spring (I can't believe that actually works) is fine so I cleaned the plugs with contact cleaner and they looked fine so I put them back in with all new gaskets.

The Felpro gasket set is very nice quality but I must say that Jaguar uses 21 gaskets where Chevy used 1 and that is a pattern I see throughout the car.

The car started and barely runs at 200 rpm but will rev out fine and sounds great at 4k rpm. Another morning wasted, another $50 in parts and the car runs as bad as it did yesterday.

Yes it could be the fuel filter. Yes maybe the fuel filter, the fuel pump and the battery could have all failed right when I put my cam gasket back on.

I'm at the point that I want the car out of my life and am looking at either selling it as is for $1000 if I'm lucky or donating it for a tax eight off.

I have unbelievable tenacity compared to the average Joe. I can sit staring at computer code for 3 days if I know there's a reason to do so. If this were what I consider a good car I'd hang in there forever if that's what it took to get it right.

But even if this car started today and ran like a champ I'd want it gone.

I probably should try the fuel filter as a last ditch effort 'cause I know it makes sense... the fuel filter was clogged so it blew the fuel pump and then I ran my battery down etc... I understand but I also have a common sense that tells me to thow the car away and move on, life is short and at 55 I'm more careful about which battles I choose.

Plus... how could the fuel filter be clogged if the engine can rev 4000 and not rev at 1/4 of that? The fuel needed at the higher rpm is way higher than what's needed at a lower rpm, and that makes me think that it's something else.

I'm tired of feeling sick.

http://honolulu.craigslist.org/oah/cto/3319040049.html

Here's the problem. I'm a painter. I paint pictures, and I need a clear mind to paint, and I can't have a clear mind with this monkey on my back. I need to admit that I blew it, bought a bad car and lost $4000.

 

Throttle position sensor then?

Two circuits. Both should change resistance smoothly with no dead spots when measured manually. Maybe Sean knows the specs for the tests.

 

I sold the car today for $1350.

Thanks everybody for all your help.

aloha,

Ian