Can a chain sometimes break without serious damage?
#1
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I'm trying to figure out 'how broken' my 1999 XJ8 really is. I took a chance and picked it up pretty cheap a few months ago, not running at all. The lady said it died the last time she started it. Towed it home, did some research, took off the valve covers, and sure enough, the left cam chain was broken, at 61K. Figuring nothing to lose, my friend and I tried a quick fix from the top, and replaced the broken chain with a master link chain from Christopher's, and replaced both secondary tensioners (one shattered, one cracked) with new parts from the dealer. And it worked! I've been driving the car daily for a couple of months, but I'm not sure where I stand, or what to do with it, because most of the time it accelerates very powerfully and quite smoothly on the open road, making me think there can't be anything too wrong inside, but it still makes distressing rattling and knocking noises most times on starting, and it idles rough, and the check engine light is always on. Code P1396/VVT solenoid. The Resricted Performance light comes and goes, though I don't feel any difference to speak of. It sometimes misfires, but it doesn't stall, never overheats, and it gets pretty good mileage. It's actually a very pleasant car to drive, even in it's present questionable condition. There are no electrical problems, and, at 62K, everything works, the A/C is ice-cold, and the car feels tight. The body has a number of small dents and scrapes. I would really welcome your comments regarding whether these motors can ever survive a low-RPM chain break without internal damage (the compression is good, if not perfect), what things might actually be wrong with it at this point, what you would do next, etc. I don't know if I should make further repairs (short of a new engine), enjoy driving it until it blows up, or sell it now while it's running sort of bad/sort of good. What is it worth? Any offers? A lot of questions, I know. Thanks in advance for any ideas you may have.
#2
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I have no specific experience with these, but I would think it was worth a look into the VVT solenoid. According to the info I have P1396 means VVT solenoid malfunction - B Bank (2). Possible causes are solenoid failure, solenoid to ECM ground circuit fault, VVT oil flow fault, or VVT / camshaft mechanical failure. If you Google - Jaguar vvt solenoid -, you'll see that they can cause a rattle if they fail. It's worth a try. I wouldn't give up on the engine yet.
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#3
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ARE YOU SURE YOU GOT THE SLACK ON THE CORRECT SIDE OF THE TENSIONERS? LOL IT HAPPENS MORE THAN YOU KNOW CAUSING THE CAM TIMING TO BE OFF A FEW DEGREES, ROUGH IDLE AND THE CAM SENSORS SEE IT OFF AS WELL POSSIBLY THINKING THE VVT ARE FAULTY. tHE ONLY WAY TO KNOW FOR SURE IS PULL THE CAM COVERS BACK OFF AND MAKE SURE THE FLATS ON THE CAMS ARE EXACTLY EVEN WITH EACH OTHER, IF NOT REDO THE TIMING CORRECTLY
#4
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I have seenOTHER interference design engines survive chain failures with no other significant damage. I am new to Jaguars though, so no experience there.
Incidentally, what is the timing belt maintenance supposed to be for the 4.0 V-8? I drove one allspring, summer, and fallin a 2001 XJ8 VDPfrom 59k to 61. No issues. No service history either.After that, I bought a 2001 XJ8L with 91k miles. Do not knowthe service history of this car.Are the chains supposed to last the life of the car?
Jay
Incidentally, what is the timing belt maintenance supposed to be for the 4.0 V-8? I drove one allspring, summer, and fallin a 2001 XJ8 VDPfrom 59k to 61. No issues. No service history either.After that, I bought a 2001 XJ8L with 91k miles. Do not knowthe service history of this car.Are the chains supposed to last the life of the car?
Jay
#5
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Thanks for your comments. It does seem like I lucked out on this one, and the problems I'm still having are more typical, less serious issues like a VVT unit or a coil pack, and/or maybe I just haven't got the timing set quite right. There just seemed to be so many reports in Jaguar circles that a chain break equals a destroyed engine that it was hard to reconcile that with the fact of this engine running pretty damn strong after replacing the broken chain and the tensioners. To hear the stories, you'd think it would barely run, if at all. You must be right that under certain circumstances, (a low-speed break), one can get away without serious damage.
As to your cars, I'm new to Jaguars, too, a long-time admirer but not an expert. From what I've read recently, I think that most2001's have the improved tensioners, but some may not. You should read the other posts carefully. Someone mentioned engine numbers that you could check to be sure if yours has the new tensioners. My impression is that the 1998-2000 definitely had the bad ones, and the 2002-2003 definitely had the good ones, with the changeover taking placecirca 2001, so it bears a closer looking into, to be sure what you have.
Generally, I've always thoughtthat, with proper tensioners, chains, unlike belts, should last indefinitely, but I guess we should find out if Jaguar thinks otherwise. BTW, your screen name, Volvo P1900, do youHAVE one of those? I've seen pictures, but never the actual car. I know a couple of guys with P1800's, but a P1900 must be rare, indeed. Rudy.
As to your cars, I'm new to Jaguars, too, a long-time admirer but not an expert. From what I've read recently, I think that most2001's have the improved tensioners, but some may not. You should read the other posts carefully. Someone mentioned engine numbers that you could check to be sure if yours has the new tensioners. My impression is that the 1998-2000 definitely had the bad ones, and the 2002-2003 definitely had the good ones, with the changeover taking placecirca 2001, so it bears a closer looking into, to be sure what you have.
Generally, I've always thoughtthat, with proper tensioners, chains, unlike belts, should last indefinitely, but I guess we should find out if Jaguar thinks otherwise. BTW, your screen name, Volvo P1900, do youHAVE one of those? I've seen pictures, but never the actual car. I know a couple of guys with P1800's, but a P1900 must be rare, indeed. Rudy.
#6
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hi to all, as a new member i have a stupid question
where are you getting the codes like -Code P1396/VVT solenoid-? and one more thing.. when my engine warms up it starts ticking like a sewing mashine, what the hell could it be? is it hte chains? or?? engine works fine no side efects no overheating.... it's just this sound "klack klack klack" drives me crazy! sounds like a diesel engine ! [:@]
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#8
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I would also bet on a chain that is not setup properly, as far the life cycle ofa chain, if you maintain your car, a chain should last forever, even the single roller chains. Toyota Pickups used plastic guides and tensioners in the 22R series 4cyl for years, and had very few issues. Although it appears Jaguar my have used some inferior materials with this car.
Chupacabra-
where is this niose coming from? valvetrain? the way you describe it, it doesnt sound like a chain issue.
Chupacabra-
where is this niose coming from? valvetrain? the way you describe it, it doesnt sound like a chain issue.
#9
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I don't think it's a chain aswell, the sound comes right from the middle of the engine ( top ) ofcourse the sound spreads all over but i can hear it the most when put my ear in the middle, I was thinking that it's the valves or something? some people tell me that it's valves and the other say that it's the chains.(none of them had, or had fixed jaguars before..so it's dificult to trust such people) when the engine is cold it works like a swiss watch, but when it warms up a little the "klack klack" soud apears....[:@]
p.s. the car ran 230.000 km
p.s. the car ran 230.000 km
#10
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I would take off the cam covers and inspect the valve train. I have no idea how these V8's are set up, but you have nothing to loose, but maybe a valve cover gasket set, to inspect it. I would assume they are not adjustable and are hydraulic.
Kyle
Kyle
#13
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Chupacabra,
Lifter tick wouldn't surprise me at all. You can use a cheap stethoscope or the screwdriver-to-ear method to try to localize the sound more. You can probably narrow it down to the problem once you do that.
On that note, can a tech tell me if the AJ-V8s have hydraulic lifters?
Lifter tick wouldn't surprise me at all. You can use a cheap stethoscope or the screwdriver-to-ear method to try to localize the sound more. You can probably narrow it down to the problem once you do that.
On that note, can a tech tell me if the AJ-V8s have hydraulic lifters?
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Greetings,
The tappets are solid aluminum with a steel adjustment shim on top: no hydraulic lifters.
Valve clearances almost never require adjustment unless a larger problem is the root cause. Since you said it is running OK, we can assume that you don't have bent valves or a dropped valve seat, so the noise is not from the valve train.
The valley of the cylinder block is hollow chamber, and is good for resonating bottom end noise. I might guess that you are hearing piston slap, given the high mileage and the fact that you are hearing it with the engine warm. I would spend some time with a stethoscope under the car, listening on the sides of the block forpiston slapor for a rod knock.
Low oil pressure could be causing the VVT fault, I would also check the pressure with a mechanical gauge to see what the reading is when the engine is warm.
I make every effort to diagnose a fault before tearing things apart, so I'd be working on the cause of the P1396. You can try swapping the two VVT solenoids, clearing the code, and see what results. IfaVVT solenoid code recurrs, test to make sure they are getting power. Next step would be to remove the cam covers and check the cam timing and condition of timing chain tensioners. From your description it doesn't sound like a chain noise though.
The tappets are solid aluminum with a steel adjustment shim on top: no hydraulic lifters.
Valve clearances almost never require adjustment unless a larger problem is the root cause. Since you said it is running OK, we can assume that you don't have bent valves or a dropped valve seat, so the noise is not from the valve train.
The valley of the cylinder block is hollow chamber, and is good for resonating bottom end noise. I might guess that you are hearing piston slap, given the high mileage and the fact that you are hearing it with the engine warm. I would spend some time with a stethoscope under the car, listening on the sides of the block forpiston slapor for a rod knock.
Low oil pressure could be causing the VVT fault, I would also check the pressure with a mechanical gauge to see what the reading is when the engine is warm.
I make every effort to diagnose a fault before tearing things apart, so I'd be working on the cause of the P1396. You can try swapping the two VVT solenoids, clearing the code, and see what results. IfaVVT solenoid code recurrs, test to make sure they are getting power. Next step would be to remove the cam covers and check the cam timing and condition of timing chain tensioners. From your description it doesn't sound like a chain noise though.
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Yes, the engine management system is designed to store trouble codes but has no function to display them. You need to acquire at least a hand held "scanner", or "code reader", to obtain the codes. You can visit a major auto parts store in most states in the U.S. and have the codes read for free. There are enough scanners on the market now that you can buy one which will be good for reading engine management codes on your car for as little as about $40.00. It's a good investment, since a scanner is the only way to clear a fault code from the computers' memory after repairs have been made. Far more expensive diagnostic equipment is required to retrieve codes used in diagnosis of many other systems on the car...but a basicgeneric scanner will help you find the basic and most significant areas to investigate.
Avdance Auto Parts is in my area, that would be my first recommendation for free service andgood values on scanners for sale.
Avdance Auto Parts is in my area, that would be my first recommendation for free service andgood values on scanners for sale.
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