Dealership still can't fix my problem...
#21
12-06-2011, 03:24 AM
Veteran Member
Just one more note- $700. at the dealer is really peanuts in the big pcture. I am not sure anyone out of warranty has gotten out of one for less than $600 or so for even routine service! So, it does not sound like they are sticking you too bad, although it is frustrating that they have not fixed, or even identified the real problem.
Be polite, while firm and play to the fact that you would expect a Jag-u-wah dealer, of all folks, to at least be able to ID the problem on such a fine car with their expensive equipment and superior training.
Be polite, while firm and play to the fact that you would expect a Jag-u-wah dealer, of all folks, to at least be able to ID the problem on such a fine car with their expensive equipment and superior training.
#22
12-06-2011, 11:17 AM
You know, I do want to take it to my independent (whom I found after I had already dropped $700 at the dealership) but I can't afford another $90 Diag. + the repair. Maybe if they will give me a full refund at the Jaguar Dealer, I can take the car to my independent.
In fact, I have floored the car from a start (I did not mean to.) But I remember it turning over a normal number, like 3 times. I will ask about a leaking injector when I take it in tomorrow. I know for a fact, that doing that on a start (esp cold, like I did) is hideously bad for your connecting rod bearings, and just about everything. But the exhaust does smell like gas. Which is why this sounds suspiciously right.
By the way, yes, the dealer has reset the codes every time I had it in their shop.
Thanks Jon.
@sparkenzap: Hahaha you say Arizona... I know I'm in a flyover state
but its is Oklahoma not AZ lol. I am in the Jaguar Club, but the folks I know mosty specialize in the V12 and XK (I6). (and I don't know them that well yet either)
No worries though. On to other car stuff
I really appreciate the offer to use your IDS, but sadly I had booked a flight a month in advance. Another thing is, I'd hate to put 1300mi on the car in this state (fouling up spark plugs, etc) and get 20-23mpg average using my new-found "granny" driving style (trying to save some of Iraq's oil in reserve).
We barely talked about the throttle body at the dealer. I actually, for the first time, am really going to talk technically with them about it... and spend a few hours at the dealership, rather than just leaving my car with them again. Unlike my independent, they seem to want to keep me pretty far from the technical stuff (probably assumptions based on my age). But they owe me, now that I've spent all this time (and money) taking the car there, and I can't just take it somewhere else atm.
The temp gauge does seem to be working normally. It seems like the car actually starts normally if the engine is at temperature (even at the bottom of the gauge). I suppose this hints at a battery problem with the starts (like Burmaz has mentioned), but that doesn't seem to link up to the codes or gas smell at all. I will ask them about the temperature gauge at the dealer.
If the dealer just pays me off, then I will ask to use someone's garage/ testing stuff. Then, if I fail, I shall go to my independent.
@JChavez76 and test point, I will ask about a possible vacuum leak if the fuel pressure regulator is, indeed, connected to a vacuum line.
If I left something unadressed, please let me know (I'm trying to read properly, I may have missed something)
Thanks guys, I really do appreciate it
Ian
In fact, I have floored the car from a start (I did not mean to.) But I remember it turning over a normal number, like 3 times. I will ask about a leaking injector when I take it in tomorrow. I know for a fact, that doing that on a start (esp cold, like I did) is hideously bad for your connecting rod bearings, and just about everything. But the exhaust does smell like gas. Which is why this sounds suspiciously right.
By the way, yes, the dealer has reset the codes every time I had it in their shop.
Thanks Jon.
@sparkenzap: Hahaha you say Arizona... I know I'm in a flyover state
but its is Oklahoma not AZ lol. I am in the Jaguar Club, but the folks I know mosty specialize in the V12 and XK (I6). (and I don't know them that well yet either)No worries though. On to other car stuff
I really appreciate the offer to use your IDS, but sadly I had booked a flight a month in advance. Another thing is, I'd hate to put 1300mi on the car in this state (fouling up spark plugs, etc) and get 20-23mpg average using my new-found "granny" driving style (trying to save some of Iraq's oil in reserve).
We barely talked about the throttle body at the dealer. I actually, for the first time, am really going to talk technically with them about it... and spend a few hours at the dealership, rather than just leaving my car with them again. Unlike my independent, they seem to want to keep me pretty far from the technical stuff (probably assumptions based on my age). But they owe me, now that I've spent all this time (and money) taking the car there, and I can't just take it somewhere else atm.
The temp gauge does seem to be working normally. It seems like the car actually starts normally if the engine is at temperature (even at the bottom of the gauge). I suppose this hints at a battery problem with the starts (like Burmaz has mentioned), but that doesn't seem to link up to the codes or gas smell at all. I will ask them about the temperature gauge at the dealer.
If the dealer just pays me off, then I will ask to use someone's garage/ testing stuff. Then, if I fail, I shall go to my independent.
@JChavez76 and test point, I will ask about a possible vacuum leak if the fuel pressure regulator is, indeed, connected to a vacuum line.
If I left something unadressed, please let me know (I'm trying to read properly, I may have missed something)
Thanks guys, I really do appreciate it
Ian
I forgot to mention that when I meant that after flooring the gas to start the car, release the gas immediately as soon as it starts to not rev up the cold engine.
You might want to check your state's consumer protection laws b/c the dealer may be required to honor their repair since they actually didn't fix the problem. Did you pay with a credit card? If so, you can contact them for dispute resolution as a last ditch effort.
#23
12-07-2011, 12:48 AM
I dropped it off, I said an 'immediate refund' was not necessary, but if there was a repair due then we would work off of what they owe me.
I always find myself at my least aggressive with car stuff... I hope that they don't now decide to give my work a second priority.
On a side-note, TBH, If you are in the rental car under-age class of people, a second car seems like a must. Apparently, even at 21 a loaner is next to unobtainable, obviously 25 is the magic number. So maybe I'll just order a new XKR-S on my next trip in I guess
I spoke with their Jag master tech, he said that there is only one fuel pressure regulator (on the main rail) and it is vacuum connected. They said the vacuum connection is where they opened up the system for a pressure test.
They're going to now put a bunch of mileage on it, and find the problem.
I'll post updates as I talk to them.
Thanks guys,
Ian
I always find myself at my least aggressive with car stuff... I hope that they don't now decide to give my work a second priority.
On a side-note, TBH, If you are in the rental car under-age class of people, a second car seems like a must. Apparently, even at 21 a loaner is next to unobtainable, obviously 25 is the magic number. So maybe I'll just order a new XKR-S on my next trip in I guess
I spoke with their Jag master tech, he said that there is only one fuel pressure regulator (on the main rail) and it is vacuum connected. They said the vacuum connection is where they opened up the system for a pressure test.
They're going to now put a bunch of mileage on it, and find the problem.
I'll post updates as I talk to them.
Thanks guys,
Ian
Last edited by Ipc838; 12-07-2011 at 12:52 AM.
#24
12-07-2011, 04:24 AM
Veteran Member
#25
12-07-2011, 10:46 AM
You know, it has been PO172, PO175 all 3 times, and the symptoms are the same. So, yes, I guess I am operating under an assumption. I have to get it checked when an auto parts house is open. I had not considered the throttle positioning sensor, I will have a look tomorrow.
Burmaz: I called the battery manufacturer, it is under 2 years old, and I believe it is in okay shape.
Gus: My suspicion was that the MAF was an unnecessary repair, and the service manager agreed to compensate me for that. I did replace the air filter about 5k ago, so that isn't it, I don't think. They never mentioned the Schrader valve.
sparkenzap: The dealer put a MAFS on there, which I believe is for a slightly different engine. But they assured me it was correct. I believe it is from a slightly newer installment of the AJ-V8. The lambda sensors were never replaced.
The tests I did myself, such as the exhaust gas test, seem to be accurate. Fuel pressure tests were done by Jaguar of Tulsa.
I will have the codes confirmed, but I'm 95% sure it's the same exact thing.
Thank you,
Ian
Burmaz: I called the battery manufacturer, it is under 2 years old, and I believe it is in okay shape.
Gus: My suspicion was that the MAF was an unnecessary repair, and the service manager agreed to compensate me for that. I did replace the air filter about 5k ago, so that isn't it, I don't think. They never mentioned the Schrader valve.
sparkenzap: The dealer put a MAFS on there, which I believe is for a slightly different engine. But they assured me it was correct. I believe it is from a slightly newer installment of the AJ-V8. The lambda sensors were never replaced.
The tests I did myself, such as the exhaust gas test, seem to be accurate. Fuel pressure tests were done by Jaguar of Tulsa.
I will have the codes confirmed, but I'm 95% sure it's the same exact thing.
Thank you,
Ian
Give us all the numbers on the top of that MAF Sensor, better yet can you post a clear picture. There is no newer/later sensor that would apply to your 2002 XJ. If that is actually true, that may be the only real problem you have causing the rich codes.
Cheers,
#26
12-07-2011, 02:33 PM
Whoa! Stop right there............
Give us all the numbers on the top of that MAF Sensor, better yet can you post a clear picture. There is no newer/later sensor that would apply to your 2002 XJ. If that is actually true, that may be the only real problem you have causing the rich codes.
Cheers,
Give us all the numbers on the top of that MAF Sensor, better yet can you post a clear picture. There is no newer/later sensor that would apply to your 2002 XJ. If that is actually true, that may be the only real problem you have causing the rich codes.
Cheers,
They did tell me after I got it back last time that the MAF was functioning properly.
Should I investigate further?
@sparkenzap
Hahaha 4 or 5 Jaguars. I think that if I had an E38 BMW 7 Series, I would broadcast "138,000" as low miles. Even though the bloody thing would need a new engine every few months. (All E38s seem to have about 150k, its rare to find a low miles one, and no one mentions how much they break)... the point being, I trust this thing as I would any good car. And, being jag owners, we are willing to admit that our cars do have problems.
I bet if my car were directly compared to any large luxury car from 2002, it would prove to be cheaper to own today.
By the way, it only has 52000 miles on it.
#27
12-07-2011, 02:42 PM
Er, bad news is that I am unable to give you the numbers off of there... The reason I said what I said was that the circumfrence of the newer MAF was clearly smaller, so I asked them what the difference was.
They did tell me after I got it back last time that the MAF was functioning properly.
Should I investigate further?
They did tell me after I got it back last time that the MAF was functioning properly.
Should I investigate further?
Cheers,
#28
12-07-2011, 03:22 PM
I can tell you it is an OEM part. They had it in stock at the Jaguar dealership.
#29
12-07-2011, 04:01 PM
Cheers,
Last edited by xjrguy; 12-07-2011 at 05:32 PM.
#30
12-07-2011, 04:41 PM
What I meant is, I don't have the receipt or the part number. I'll try and get a hold of that.
#31
12-13-2011, 10:39 PM
UPDATE:
I got the car back from the dealer. I have put 100miles on it since I got it back, and the warning light has yet to come back.
The dealer put 200mi on the car, and the RP light never came on. They had test gear on at the time, and they didn't find anything unusual, and the condition that causes the CEL to come on has yet to be replicated.
I am losing power and gas mileage though, the car feels noticeably slower, and it only gets 18mpg on empty city streets, with the cruise on. I used to get like 25mpg setting the cruise at 35 and only stopping every few miles. The best I saw was 21. On the Motorway, the best I saw was 21-23 at 65-70mp. At 65, I should be getting 25-27 easily.
I'm running out of ideas... there is nothing really wrong, just a little wrong. Losing power and gas, not throwing a code yet.
Anyone else ever experienced this? maybe my car used to be especially fast/efficient? It feels rather slow now. Probably 7-8s to 60 is what it feels like. Under hard acceleration, it barely feels like the variable timing kicks in at all (not that sudden surge of torque as I pass 3600rpm! It's gone!).
@xjrguy, the Part reads is as such:
LNE1620CB
197408-0011
DENSO
JAPAN
I got the car back from the dealer. I have put 100miles on it since I got it back, and the warning light has yet to come back.
The dealer put 200mi on the car, and the RP light never came on. They had test gear on at the time, and they didn't find anything unusual, and the condition that causes the CEL to come on has yet to be replicated.
I am losing power and gas mileage though, the car feels noticeably slower, and it only gets 18mpg on empty city streets, with the cruise on. I used to get like 25mpg setting the cruise at 35 and only stopping every few miles. The best I saw was 21. On the Motorway, the best I saw was 21-23 at 65-70mp. At 65, I should be getting 25-27 easily.
I'm running out of ideas... there is nothing really wrong, just a little wrong. Losing power and gas, not throwing a code yet.
Anyone else ever experienced this? maybe my car used to be especially fast/efficient? It feels rather slow now. Probably 7-8s to 60 is what it feels like. Under hard acceleration, it barely feels like the variable timing kicks in at all (not that sudden surge of torque as I pass 3600rpm! It's gone!).
@xjrguy, the Part reads is as such:
LNE1620CB
197408-0011
DENSO
JAPAN
Last edited by Ipc838; 12-13-2011 at 10:58 PM. Reason: Added MAFS Part no.
#34
12-14-2011, 04:19 AM
Veteran Member
ian:
Are you saying they never got an RP and they did nothing to fix it? If that is the case, I believe you might very wekll be victim of the low battery syndrome that is often reported. If you have not been driving the car as much, and now with several hungred put on in a few days, the battery should be fully charged, and the problem goes away.
My MY 02, NA has never given the gas mileage you post and I have owned it from day 1. It not has 160,000 miles. Although my personal style of driving would not be a fair test and I have never driven a tankful with speeds limited to 65, my wife primarily drives tha car and she drives like you defiined. I have compard the trip computer to actual gas and mileage and it is calibrated as well as I can measure.
When she drives it, she gets 21 to 24 mpg, at best, on the highway She does not exactly drive like an old lady, (although she is getting to be one!).
The computer works by integrating the injector pulse time with the assumed pressure and injector flow rate. If some disturbamce to either occurs, your trip computer measurement may be inaccurate, since the ecu wil adjust the pulse to satisfy the oxygen sensors, but I doubt the computer can compensate for that.
Anyway, others will no doubt offer their experience, but Just wanted you to have a baseline of mine.
HAve you washed the car lately??? Mine always seems to run better when it is clean!
Good luck and keep us posted on this.
Are you saying they never got an RP and they did nothing to fix it? If that is the case, I believe you might very wekll be victim of the low battery syndrome that is often reported. If you have not been driving the car as much, and now with several hungred put on in a few days, the battery should be fully charged, and the problem goes away.
My MY 02, NA has never given the gas mileage you post and I have owned it from day 1. It not has 160,000 miles. Although my personal style of driving would not be a fair test and I have never driven a tankful with speeds limited to 65, my wife primarily drives tha car and she drives like you defiined. I have compard the trip computer to actual gas and mileage and it is calibrated as well as I can measure.
When she drives it, she gets 21 to 24 mpg, at best, on the highway She does not exactly drive like an old lady, (although she is getting to be one!).
The computer works by integrating the injector pulse time with the assumed pressure and injector flow rate. If some disturbamce to either occurs, your trip computer measurement may be inaccurate, since the ecu wil adjust the pulse to satisfy the oxygen sensors, but I doubt the computer can compensate for that.
Anyway, others will no doubt offer their experience, but Just wanted you to have a baseline of mine.
HAve you washed the car lately??? Mine always seems to run better when it is clean!
Good luck and keep us posted on this.
Last edited by sparkenzap; 12-14-2011 at 04:26 AM.
#35
12-14-2011, 08:17 AM
That is the correct MAF sensor for a normally aspirated car. I was puzzled by your comment that the replacement was different/smaller than the original.
I'm with Ross on the mileage, too. I've never known the 4.0L to do much better than about 23MPG reliably; sometimes yes, but not consistently. The 4.2L is another matter, they can approach or exceed 30MPG quite often.
After another couple hundred miles or so, give us an update on what symptoms remain.
Cheers,
I'm with Ross on the mileage, too. I've never known the 4.0L to do much better than about 23MPG reliably; sometimes yes, but not consistently. The 4.2L is another matter, they can approach or exceed 30MPG quite often.
After another couple hundred miles or so, give us an update on what symptoms remain.
Cheers,
#36
12-14-2011, 09:09 AM
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Damon /Houston, Texas
Posts: 7,254
Received 2,190 Likes
on
1,357 Posts
my car is currently running lean with an intermittant rp light. My lean condition used to be much worse with the ecu cutting the throttle to the point i could hardly drive on the freeway. The culprit (well partial culprit)? A missing screw on the valve cover! I still don't understand how that caused the problem.
#37
01-13-2012, 05:35 PM
It's been 300 miles. The dealer had it again, and after over 100 miles of testing, the RP and CEL did not come back. They have yet to come back. I have been suffering crap gas mileage, so I thought I'd go for an 80mph, 15-20mi highway drive, and then pull off onto some country roads for a bit of a thrashing. Someone here (sorry, forgot who!) called it an "Italian Tune-Up". lol! Sounded like a good idea. So, before I went, I cleaned the car thoroughly (a clean car is a happy car)
On the way there, the car averaged about 21-23 mpg (65mph avg, or so). On the sporty driving bit, it dropped to about 17mpg. (Few stops) I reset it on the exit ramp for the 15 mile drive back home. I averaged about 57mph, with 81mph fetching 26mpg, and 50mph fetching 28. Average by the time I got home was 27.1mpg.
That drive seems to have made more difference than anything so far... but there is some kind of problem. There was a CEL 5 times for a reason!
The starts are erratic, hinting at a fuel system problem. The cranking is a bit faster (and turns over about 8-12 times) on the poorer starts, and some starts are the normal ones (for me, turns over about 3-4 times and fires up).
Just an update. thanks for the advice guys! I've been over all the tests, so if you have any questions please post. I'm watching this thread closely .
On the way there, the car averaged about 21-23 mpg (65mph avg, or so). On the sporty driving bit, it dropped to about 17mpg. (Few stops) I reset it on the exit ramp for the 15 mile drive back home. I averaged about 57mph, with 81mph fetching 26mpg, and 50mph fetching 28. Average by the time I got home was 27.1mpg.
That drive seems to have made more difference than anything so far... but there is some kind of problem. There was a CEL 5 times for a reason!
The starts are erratic, hinting at a fuel system problem. The cranking is a bit faster (and turns over about 8-12 times) on the poorer starts, and some starts are the normal ones (for me, turns over about 3-4 times and fires up).
Just an update. thanks for the advice guys! I've been over all the tests, so if you have any questions please post. I'm watching this thread closely .
#39
01-14-2012, 06:47 PM
#40
01-14-2012, 08:45 PM
Veteran Member