I'm not very good with short stories, so bear with me. As some of you might have read, I recently, relatively recently, started driving my late father's 1998 XJ8, which had been sitting for around 14 or 15 years, being run only a few times per year, during that time, for only short journeys. After starting to drive it, maybe six months ago, first reasonable journey, about 80 miles round trip, 20 minutes onto the motorway, the engine simply stopped. I pulled over onto the hard shoulder, with considerably difficulty, and to the annoyance of other drivers, as I was coasting to a halt, and then tried to immediately restart it, several times, but to no avail, with the 'check engine' light staying on. I waited, a minute or two, leaving it off, and then tried again and it started again, perfectly. I aborted my trip, and exited the motorway at the first opportunity, returning on A roads, with no further issues, at all.

I thought, because I had just touched the keys, I had turned it off, albeit briefly, and that it wouldn't restart until it had done a full reset. I had touched the keys, because I knew it had done this before, for both me and my father, as a result of an overly heavy bunch of keys simply turning it off, or so we thought, so I was trying to ensure the weight of keys was on the 'turn it on' side of things. My bunch was stupidly heavy, so I have now pared it down to just the absolute essential keys. The car key itself, and a small back door key, thus thinking I would have resolved the issue, but at the time of the incident, it was really heavy.

Fast forward to this week, many months later, when I returned from the same journey I was attempting the first time, going fishing, as it happens, I turned off the car to unpack, and when I tried to restart it, it had very similar, if not identical symptoms to the first time when I had the restart issue, but this time it had not quit on me as I drove, but I had the no restart, similar sounds, and the check engine light. I left it a while, 10 minutes or more, as I put away all of my gear in the house, and then tried again. It started perfectly, ran perfectly, so I put it away in the garage. Whilst it wasn't starting I lifted the bonnet, and could hear a whirring noise, like maybe a pump, with the ignition on, but maybe that's normal?

Two days later, yesterday, I went for a short motorway journey, and it did the first problem again. I had been driving 10 minutes, was on the motorway, and the engine just quit on me, totally off, no warnings, or error codes, and not limp mode, just off. Dash was on, but the engine was shut down, and I was once again coasting. This time, I was in the nearside lane, deliberately, in case there was an issue, and there was. I pulled off with no drama, and sat there in the car for a couple of minutes, looking in my rear view mirror, for an impending impact, from a distracted driver. Not that I could have done anything about it, but I looked anyway, lol. I probably shouldn't have taken the car, my bad, but then I also thought it was not a bad journey, short, just to see if all was okay. After being glued to my rear view mirror for two minutes, I tried again, and it started perfectly, first time, and also ran perfectly, for the remainder of my twenty minute return trip.

Last night, I went out to the pub, a few miles only, and returned several hours later, all without drama of any sort. Running perfectly, and sounding as beautiful as ever.

I have contacted Jaguar service, and am awaiting their response to book it in for diagnostics, but I would like to be armed with any advice you guys are able to offer, as to a likely cause. If you have heard of this before, and it's a simple fix, you might even save me having to send it in for diagnostics, and any associated costs, but at the very least I will be better armed to discuss it with them.

It's entirely possible this has been happening to this car from new, because, as I mentioned, very similar had happened 2 or 3 times prior, once to me, when it was my dad's car, and as I said, we put it down to a heavy bunch of keys turning it off, but who knows now, especially with it doing it this week, with my very light bunch of keys, and with me not having touched them, this time, lol. Of course my father had also taken to driving it with just the car key, for this very reason, but I had forgotten this, until it happened to me. Now though, it has me wondering, and worrying, about driving it again.

I worry that with such an intermittent fault, I mean possibly up to six months apart, it will be almost impossible to diagnose, unless you guys have heard of similar before. I'm not very technical with engines, so if you do have any ideas, please explain it to me as you would any old dummy.

Thanks for taking the time to read, and for any suggestions you might have.

Cheers

Sutty

 

I highly doubt Jaguar service will be of assistance, they have this thing of not working on vehicles older than about 10-15 yrs old. Your better off with an Inde'.

But, to get to the task at hand,...have you had a scan done on it for any codes? ...how old is the battery? ...what condition are the cables? ...do they have any corrosion on them, if so, replace them, you'll never get the corrosion out of them and it severely effects power distribution. Check the ground mesh lanyard and its connections.

I would clean the MAF, with a MAF only cleaner. Check the crankcase breather hose for any obstruction. Check the air filter for obstruction, to include the line coming from the fender. There are articles on site about the TPS connection and gold tip replacement connectors, initially be sure the connectors are all the way in.

 

Thanks for your reply highhorse. I have put my answers and questions below.

Well, in my initial contact, I told them that it was a 1998 X308, and they said they would need to have it in to diagnose the issue, so they didn't immediately refuse, so I can see how that goes, and if they do refuse, then I will try to find a good independent.

I have no scanner, so cannot do that, unfortunately. I had been thinking of getting one, but I got confused as to what I should get, from the options available out there.

Not new, probably three years old, but has been kept charged, and starts and performs admirably, including leaving the side lights on, as necessary, etc. When it wouldn't start, it was turning over like a champ, and when it did, at which point the battery would be even weaker, as a result of multiple failed starts, it ran perfectly.

Cabling looks lovely. The car only has about 37K miles on it, and it has been kept in a very dry garage. My father didn't even like to take it out if it rained. See photo for example of the battery cables.

Is my photo what you mean by ground mesh lanyard? If so, it's sound, as you can see, and tight. It should be noted that the power does not go off, the engine stops, but the fan, lights, and anything else that might be on, remain fully operational, with no glitch, including full power to the starter, which does not labour at all.

I will have to do some research on the terms used here, because as it stands, few of those things mean anything to me, other than air filter, but I will find out. I did look at the air filter, and although at least 15 years old, at least, it looks beautiful. It could have come out of the box yesterday. There is no chance of there being debris in there blocking anything, if this is where you mean to look? I don't know about the fender line, but when doing work that required me to remove the wheel arch liners, I did note a hose there, though did not know what it was for. I noted the wheel arch ends were free of obstruction, but I haven't blown it through from the other end, to test.

Would that give an issue that might occur once every few months, and completely go away after sitting for a minute or two?



I'll now start reading about the codes you used at the end of your post, and learn what they are.

Thanks again for your reply.

Cheers

Sutty

 

Sorry, didn't mean to talk over your head, you never know someone's familiarity with mechanics and we tend to start throwing symbols around.

Mass...Air...Flow...which is the sensor in the tube just after the air filter
Throttle...Positioning...Sensor...its on the side of the throttle body and sends signals to to ECU (or ECM, same thing)...Electronic...Control...Unit (Module)...along with the O2 sensors and the MAF, and it gathers that information to determine your air/fuel mixture to optimize the best performance and gas mileage for your automobile. This is in all cars since 1994...they are just designed for each engine by each manufacturer. So when you step on or let off the gas pedal, it determines the appropriate mixture to keep the car running. Plenty of YouTube videos on it and all else mentioned. Here's a link of abbreviations provided by Don B, a very good MOD and person, btw, MODs are listed at the bottom of each forum...https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/g...-terms-136849/

Your battery looks excellent and yes, that was the ground wire I was speaking of.
For the air inlet from the filter to the fender, all you have to do is stick a ruler or the like in that tube to be sure its not obstructed. As long as the car was stored, mice and other little creatures love to make these their home.

With the minimal miles you have on this car, I expect it could be a corroded TPS pin issue, but do the MAF cleaning first, its a lot simpler and just as possibly the issue.

 

Oaky, so I now know what a MAF sensor is, and also MAF specific cleaner. I'm hesitant to undertake that, as all the symptoms I was just reading about suggest that I would have starting and running issues, such as at idle, or pick up, and odd throttle changes, when it's dirty, but my car runs perfectly, with good efficiency, all the time, until it just stops, and that is very rare. Then, when I leave it a short while, it will start again, perfectly, and runs perfectly, and my MAF sensor can't suddenly have become clean, I don't think. Perhaps the connector to it, being dirty, I can see that, and I'm guessing I can just use electrical cleaner on that.

TPS, which I now know is a throttle plate sensor, I can also see how that could cause the issue, especially with an intermittent connection, but I suppose there could be any number of connectors that could cause my symptoms. I'll read up on the articles about gold pins. Problem is, I won't even know if I have solved it, if it takes another 6 months to rear its ugly head again, but this time when in the outside lane on the motorway.

I know I haven't given much to go on, without codes, but I was hoping someone might have solved the exact same thing, based on my description. Now, a loose connector, I could see that, for sure, but I'm thinking there must be a lot of those that could stop an engine in its tracks?

I suppose I will have to get a scanner, or just blindly trust Jaguar, or the independent specialist.

Maybe I should get a scanner anyway. Can someone recommend one that would be known to work with my car?

 

Sorry, your post appeared, as I was writing mine. I went to find out things in the background. If you think it could definitely be the MAF sensor, then I will clean it, but perhaps you see how that might seem odd, when in between, it runs absolutely perfectly?

 

I just took a picture of my air box. I take it that is the MAF sensor, on the big round tube? If so, then that doesn't look too difficult to deal with. As for cleanliness in general, as you might see, it hasn't even ever been run in a dusty environment, because the engine is as is, as always was, and has not been cleaned.

Thanks again highhorse for your advice. I'll go order some MAF cleaner, and if you or anyone has a suggestion, I'll get a code scanner too.

 

Yes, that's the MAF, just take the cover up on the filter and spray the sensor. Read the instructions, it will guide you. As for why its doing this, sensors not used a lot will stagnate, as they need to be used. Hopefully a good cleaning will clear this up.

Note, just behind your filter is the shock tower, those are original mount bushings. If they aren't already, they will deteriorate and will need replaced. You can buy whole towers, pre-pressed bushings on ebay.

Your car is in very good condition it appears...please take the time to take some pics and post them here... https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...ictures-52060/

 

Thanks again.

I'll get some photos in a few days, and post them up. I'll take a look at those bushings, on top of the shocks, thanks for the heads up. Looks to be a fairly easy job even when having to press your own in, having just watched a video. I would be able to do that, but if the ebay versions are already in, and cheap enough, then I may as well get them. Cheers!

 

I just took the airbox cover off to take a look, and to practice, before my cleaner arrives, and thought I would post a couple of pictures to show how amazingly clean it is. Under the filter there were a couple of fluffy, floaty seeds, and a couple of pine needles, so I vacuumed them out, but on top, and the cover, and where the sensor is located, were spotless. The only mark I saw on the filter was where I touched it with my dirty fingers to take it out, lol.




I need to find a guide now as to how to clean that sensor, which I assume is down that four vane hole. I peered down there too, and it also looked spotless, but I'm going to do it anyway, as recommended.

Cheers

Sutty
EDIT: Oh, I took a look at the shock rubbers, whilst I was there, and those on top are totally fine. Red, bulging round, and still squidgy when I squeeze them, with no sign at all of perishing.

 

Back to the engine cutting out intermittently - and the….very heavy key chain (I know that you have already reduced the weight). This (the weight of key chains) is a well known cause of ignition switch failure - so, given the history (your early use of the car with a heavy key chain) and the possibility that this may also have been an earlier pattern of use, I would definitely consider the ignition switch itself as a suspect.
It is good practice to have nothing other than the ignition key and the key fob hanging from the ignition switch.

 

Thank you for the suggestion. For sure I can't disagree with that logic. My car keys, to which I simply added the Jaguar keys, when I decided to start using it more frequently, was a huge great lump of weight, with just a silly amount of keys on there. Now, as you know, it's almost nothing, but yes, I still have a small house key on there.

Do you have any recommendations as to how I might test the theory? Perhaps by sitting there with the engine idling, and then wiggling, banging, lifting, pulling, in all directions, to see if I can make the car stop? If I fall short of doing everything bar turning the key backwards, to the next position, and I can't make it go off, then perhaps that would rule out a faulty switch?

One thing against that, might be that I have lights that come on, on the dash, which would only show in the on position, when it stops, however if it simply glitched off, for a millisecond, or similar, I suppose that could still explain it.

I'll go try wiggling now.

 

I forgot to press submit on the above post, until just now, so I have been out there for a good while, pushing, pulling, wiggling, and messing about with finding the actual off position, when I actually turn it backwards. I could not get it to go off, at any point, unless I actually turned it off, which took a significant backwards rotation and quite a lot of force.

I should have thought to perform this experiment a long time ago, so thank you for making me think about it, because by doing so, I discovered there is not a prayer that the weight of keys has ever turned it off, now or in the past. If I positioned the key ring, such that all the weight would pull it that way, I could not 'pull' it down to the off position. My father, and then I, subsequently, cutting down our keys down to a minimum, was sensible for weight on the lock mechanism, as you described above, but there is no way they have ever turned it off as a result of the weight, which leads me to the conclusion that this car has been doing this since new, and it had nothing whatsoever to do with the weight of the keys, however sensible it was to minimise the weight. 37K miles, and it has probably done it five times now, and spread out all throughout its life, behaving perfectly in between times.

Very very weird.

 

Good…at least you have eliminated the ignition switch itself from the equation. I learned about this possibility myself with the ignition switch of my MGB years ago - and I had the car from new.

 

Yes, thank you again. You have ruled something out that had plagued and perplexed both me and my late father for all those years. It was something else all along. I know for sure it happened twice to him (but maybe more?), and once to me, whilst it was his, and I was just borrowing it. Then once when I first started using it properly, maybe 6 months back, then once this week. There was one other, being slightly different, the night before, in that it didn't stop, I stopped it, but the fail to start sounded, and looked, exactly the same, as the situation we were both faced with when trying to start it after it stopped, but the actual incident wasn't exactly the same, so I can't really count that one. So three when it was much younger, at least one of those when it was very young, and then twice relatively recently.

The problem is, any attempted fix, will give me no clue as to if it has been fixed or not. I just went out for a drive now, just a 10 mile round trip, and it was perfect, as it nearly always is. I could blow off two grand with Jaguar, or similar, and be left in the same situation, unless it will be in the logs, and it will make it crystal clear to them. I have my doubts though, and they could literally tell me anything.

 

Hello,
I have a 2003 XJ8 (X308) and I was plagued for years with an intermittent cut-out too.
Your car looks to be in excellent shape and well-worth saving. As Highhorse has stated,
the very best thing to do is find a good independent that specialises in Jaguars.
Beyond that, get a code reader and learn how to use it. I bought an iCarsoft LR V1.0
from an English supplier and it has helped me and my Jaguar garage a lot.
These cars are super sensitive to battery voltage and even a temporary dip can set
a code or worse, put you into Limp Home mode! A car that sits idle (even in a dry garage)
can develop corrosion on ground connections leading to a voltage drop. The battery to body ground is easy to
check and clean but the engine to body ground is harder to check and more prone to corrosion.
Also check the bulkhead positive cable for tightness and corrosion (disconnect battery first). This is located
high up on the right side of the engine compartment towards the windshield.
Ultimately, I cured the irritating intermittent cut-out by having the throttle body rebuilt by ASI in Tennessee.
This only cost me about 200 pounds and it was so worth it! It looks as though they rebuilt the two sensors
on the throttle body, the Throttle Position Sensor and the Pedal Position Sensor. There is probably a European
or British rebuilder.
I now use a CTEK type battery maintainer to keep on top of battery voltage, there are all sorts of items drawing current
even when your car is parked. Over time, these will drop your battery voltage, especially on a car not driven every day.
If you get stuck on the side of the road, doing a hard reset will often get you going again. Using a 10mm wrench, disconnect
the negative battery cable connection on the battery and hold it against the positive terminal of the battery for about a minute.
This will reset your computer but will also erase any problem codes. That is why I bought the code reader, when a problem
occurred I would read the codes and write them down (for my mechanic) then reset the computer.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Andy Webb

 

Thank you Andy

I believe my car's wiring to be corrosion free. The main earthing braid is pictured higher up in the thread, and is in very good order. Like new, I think one could say. The positive seems perfect and solid too, and is tight. I haven't checked the other connection you mentioned, so I will look at that this afternoon, but I strongly suspect the same.

With regard to the scanner, I enquired about the one you mentioned, and they have asked for the VIN of the car, so I have sent that information, and await their reply. They also asked if I would like any other features, because I proposed the model you suggested, and I have replied, 'Not sure, because I don't know what else they can do, please let me know what other nice to have features are possible.'

The one you described will be £92, which sounds like a good price to me, though I suspect there are much cheaper options on eBay or similar. I'd rather go with one, from what already seems to be a very helpful company, in terms of making sure they meet my needs, and if it helps me get to the bottom of this, then it would be money well spent anyway.

As for wiring or connections in general, I have now come to the conclusion that this repeated problem has been occurring since new, and I doubt anything has changed. I strongly suspect if I drove it, I could go many months again without this being an issue, which is going to be a big, big problem in resolving it.

Yours turned out to be a rebuild of the throttle body, and I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if this was related to that. I'm glad you got yours solved and that the scanner is helpful to you. Hopefully any codes I can read will point me in the right direction, once I make a choice on the device. I wanted one anyway, just to have a mooch around what might be going on, at any given moment, so I'm happy to buy one. I truly hate the thought of blindly taking it to a garage, and them, almost literally, being able to tell me anything. Not very trusting, I know, but that's how I am with such things.

Thanks again for the help

Best regards

Sutty

 

Some times it is the simple things: this sounds like a bad connection at the battery (just for ***** and grins, grab a 10mm and tighten both posts); search for a bad ground strap (maybe the one under the engine, I have forgotten where it is exactly); and maybe a mechanical fault in the battery from a broken cross connector cell to cell). But this sounds like it is caused by vibration . . .

To that thought, examine the relays for a loose relay or loose connection. Somewhere in an old memory cell I remember an owner who had a loose connection in the relay box in the engine bay (it is just forward of those really ugly looking shock mounts). These may help.

 

Thanks for the suggestions Jim

I checked the battery post connections, and they were tight. The photograph above shows them to be free from corrosion, and I had already wiggled the connections on the posts, to see if they would move, and they would not, but I followed your advice and took a spanner to them, but they were tight.

Today, I also took a spanner to the positive connection, under the bonnet, mentioned above by Andy, and by you. It was pristine, zero corrosion, as you will see below, but I did tighten it, and it moved a teeny bit, but it was already tight. I was just able to tighten it a tad more, but maybe it was already as tight as it was meant to be. I don't have a torque wrench, so I couldn't test it properly, but it was as tight as an electrical contact needs to be, I would suggest.

Someone mentioned, I think Andy above, that I would lose the error codes, if I disconnected the battery, so I couldn't disconnect the battery before checking that +ve terminal, or I would lose them, before my scanner comes. Instead, I was careful, and I put a thin sheet of rubber underneath where I was working, over the nearby bodywork, and just took extreme care. Perhaps a little risky, but I need those codes, for when my scanner comes. Having said that, I didn't even end up touching the rubber, so it worked out okay. I was super careful, even if it's not to be recommended.

Still working with the company to decide what scanner will best suit my needs, so I won't be going on any long drives until that comes.

As for the relays, I doubt anything is loose, but I will re-plug them all shortly. If you look at all the electrics, there just isn't any corrosion anywhere, and it doesn't seem to stack up with how it was looked after, or the fact that it has happened a mere five times in 37K miles? To be fair, the electrics being corrosion free isn't really surprising. The garage is bone dry, heated in winter, and there is no corrosion anywhere else either. I mean, just look at the battery, or the +ve terminal I photographed below. It's just like the earthing braid I photographed above, almost like new. Off to re-plug the relays now. Thanks for the suggestion. Hope one of them doesn't kill my codes, lol.

 

Your problem sounds like the inertia switch. The switch is in the passenger side footwell, on the side behind the plastic cover, straight ahead of the door. You can see an opening in the top of the plastic, and if you reach your finger in there, you can push down on the top of the switch (a rubber button). The button resets the switch if the car has been in an accident, but in your case, the switch itself is likely going bad and has nothing to do with it needing to be reset. I had this exact same problem years ago, and I chased down one potential solution after another (as you're probably doing now), until I discovered the inertia switch issue. I bought a used one for $25 on ebay at that time, and I have never had the issue again. The inertia switch shuts down various electrical components including the fuel pump during an accident, for safety purposes. You can try pressing down on the rubber reset button, but generally if the switch is tripped, the car will not start at all. For that reason, in your case, it is more likely that the switch itself is going bad internally, which is why the problem flares up occasionally. If it had "tripped", your car would not start until you reset it.

I hope this helps.