Engine gone??
#1
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Gents,
Heater problems and while working on it my Wife took "her car" out. Over heated and shut off. Runs now very rough with "reduced performance". Did a compression check and find all cylinders at 140 through 160 cold cranking. Problem... #8 (pass rear) has zero compression. I know what this usually means but now do I replace the engine or try to fix it. I am very mechanically inclined, I have an 11sec ElCamino and have restored older US muscle cars and can take a Chevy Big Block apart and put it back together, no sweat. I tell you this only so we don't all spend a lot of time asking and answering inappropriate questions. I do admit though I know little about the Jaguar and get confused with the complexities of the Jaguar and am not inclinded to tear into this engine. Car has 106000 miles and is in great condition otherwise.
Thanks in advance
Mike Crosby
Heater problems and while working on it my Wife took "her car" out. Over heated and shut off. Runs now very rough with "reduced performance". Did a compression check and find all cylinders at 140 through 160 cold cranking. Problem... #8 (pass rear) has zero compression. I know what this usually means but now do I replace the engine or try to fix it. I am very mechanically inclined, I have an 11sec ElCamino and have restored older US muscle cars and can take a Chevy Big Block apart and put it back together, no sweat. I tell you this only so we don't all spend a lot of time asking and answering inappropriate questions. I do admit though I know little about the Jaguar and get confused with the complexities of the Jaguar and am not inclinded to tear into this engine. Car has 106000 miles and is in great condition otherwise.
Thanks in advance
Mike Crosby
#2
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Sounds like you are in for a fair bit of work. As you must have figured out, Jaguars are very complicated to work on, seemingly (in many cases) for no clear benefit. But if you have a garage to work in and are patient, does not require a PhD in Jaguarology.
One drawback, in my opinion, is that the available electronic shop-manual equivalent (the JTIS) is not as detailed as typical American car shop manuals. Some of the responders on this site, generally techs as their day jobs, seem to have additional info which they post. So it pays to do a lot of searching through this forum for many hints and shortcuts.
Your options are of course to rebuild what you have, swap in a major unit (i.e., a head) or swap in a whole different engine. But engines from a junkyard may be on their way out also. You won't be able to tell what's what until you get the head off that services cylinder #8.
Good luck!
One drawback, in my opinion, is that the available electronic shop-manual equivalent (the JTIS) is not as detailed as typical American car shop manuals. Some of the responders on this site, generally techs as their day jobs, seem to have additional info which they post. So it pays to do a lot of searching through this forum for many hints and shortcuts.
Your options are of course to rebuild what you have, swap in a major unit (i.e., a head) or swap in a whole different engine. But engines from a junkyard may be on their way out also. You won't be able to tell what's what until you get the head off that services cylinder #8.
Good luck!
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crosbym (01-01-2011)
#3
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First suggestion is squirt a small bit of oil down the bore. Try it a couple of times, see if it gets compression.
What year is the car, any other signs of over heating? Engine warning lights? Are you familiar with OBD diagnostics? We can plug these cars into cheap electronic readers that pull codes, hopefully pointing us in the general direction of issues. This would be a next step before engine swop thoughts.
If its running rough, it should throw a sicky code we can help with, e.g. a faulty coil, etc.
What year is the car, any other signs of over heating? Engine warning lights? Are you familiar with OBD diagnostics? We can plug these cars into cheap electronic readers that pull codes, hopefully pointing us in the general direction of issues. This would be a next step before engine swop thoughts.
If its running rough, it should throw a sicky code we can help with, e.g. a faulty coil, etc.
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crosbym (01-01-2011)
#4
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Not that I have rebuilt any Jaguar engines but a couple GM's but I find the biggest problem is there are little internal parts and documentation available. It was Jaguar's intent that the engine be swapped as a unit and not rebuilt in the field.
Not sure I have ever seen zero compression short of a bent valve.
The obvious potential problems are warped head/blown head gasket.
One other issue that I would get out of the way before I started removing the head is cylinder wash. Search for lots of comments. You do not identify the MY of your 'wife's car' but the 97 to 99 MY's have a fuel wash problem with the Nikasil cylinder coating that effectively eliminates compression. Squirt a teaspoon of oil in that cylinder and see what happens.
You might also check the coolant reservoir for bubbles while cranking indicating a head gasket problem.
No luck, order the gasket and start pulling stuff. No big secrets.
. . . and welcome to the forum!
Not sure I have ever seen zero compression short of a bent valve.
The obvious potential problems are warped head/blown head gasket.
One other issue that I would get out of the way before I started removing the head is cylinder wash. Search for lots of comments. You do not identify the MY of your 'wife's car' but the 97 to 99 MY's have a fuel wash problem with the Nikasil cylinder coating that effectively eliminates compression. Squirt a teaspoon of oil in that cylinder and see what happens.
You might also check the coolant reservoir for bubbles while cranking indicating a head gasket problem.
No luck, order the gasket and start pulling stuff. No big secrets.
. . . and welcome to the forum!
Last edited by test point; 01-01-2011 at 06:33 PM.
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crosbym (01-01-2011)
#5
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Sean B and Boomer...
Thanks for your replies. Car ran great, but while working on the heater it wasn't road ready. I had broken the vent line from the thermostat housing to the resevoir. Had it plugged on both ends. Wife drove it and it over heated, shut off, and now has no compression on #8. I will put some oil in the cylinder and see. Yes I am familiar with OBD. I don't have a scan tool but can test it at my local autozone. Hope to learn something but don't have high expectations. We already know that there is no compression on #8 which is likely the cause of "reduced performance". There are engines available throughout the country. I did some searching last night. Cost are between $1800 and $2800. Used with mileages between 50000 and 110000.
Thanks
Mike
Thanks for your replies. Car ran great, but while working on the heater it wasn't road ready. I had broken the vent line from the thermostat housing to the resevoir. Had it plugged on both ends. Wife drove it and it over heated, shut off, and now has no compression on #8. I will put some oil in the cylinder and see. Yes I am familiar with OBD. I don't have a scan tool but can test it at my local autozone. Hope to learn something but don't have high expectations. We already know that there is no compression on #8 which is likely the cause of "reduced performance". There are engines available throughout the country. I did some searching last night. Cost are between $1800 and $2800. Used with mileages between 50000 and 110000.
Thanks
Mike
#7
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#8
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Compression loss in only one cylinder does not sound like a cylinder wash. I would first get the codes, after that we will have a better picture of what is going on. “0” compression on one cylinder does sound like a valve or a piston compression ring not Nikasil. Get the codes first. As for the overheating check the coolant level and your water pump or thermostat.
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crosbym (01-01-2011)
#9
#10
#11
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I am really not sure why there is so much discussion on this- It is ALMOST certainly a blown head gasket. I guess I am suprised by the suggestions from some of th most knowledgeable posters about codes and so on. If you got zero compression in one cylinder it ain't wash and a code reader will tell you squat. Or what am I missing?
Changing the head gasket on the X308 is only more complicated from the GM car mentioned in that there is more stuff on the top that has to come off, and the timing chains, which are well documented. Since the head and block are both aluminum, there is a fair chance you have not warped the block, and I bought a good head on e-bay for $150.00 a short time ago. Get the timing chain tools before you start and position the crank with the pin, then lock the cams so you don't do more damage while disassemblying. The biggest bitch for me has been holding the crank while removing the damper bolt- use a big Rigid strap wrench on the damper, not the flywheel pin, and I have rounded the head on an old style head bolt. That caused much pain, resulting in the aforementioned ebay head!
This will take you half way: http://jaguar.blackonyx.net/tech/timingchain.htm
After that you need to get the intake manifold and injector assembly off, then take the exhaust manifold loose from the cats- remove the exhaust manifold with the head.
Good Luck.
Changing the head gasket on the X308 is only more complicated from the GM car mentioned in that there is more stuff on the top that has to come off, and the timing chains, which are well documented. Since the head and block are both aluminum, there is a fair chance you have not warped the block, and I bought a good head on e-bay for $150.00 a short time ago. Get the timing chain tools before you start and position the crank with the pin, then lock the cams so you don't do more damage while disassemblying. The biggest bitch for me has been holding the crank while removing the damper bolt- use a big Rigid strap wrench on the damper, not the flywheel pin, and I have rounded the head on an old style head bolt. That caused much pain, resulting in the aforementioned ebay head!
This will take you half way: http://jaguar.blackonyx.net/tech/timingchain.htm
After that you need to get the intake manifold and injector assembly off, then take the exhaust manifold loose from the cats- remove the exhaust manifold with the head.
Good Luck.
Last edited by sparkenzap; 01-01-2011 at 10:47 PM.
#12
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I am really not sure why there is so much discussion on this- It is ALMOST certainly a blown head gasket. I guess I am suprised by the suggestions from some of th most knowledgeable posters about codes and so on. If you got zero compression in one cylinder it ain't wash and a code reader will tell you squat. Or what am I missing?
Changing the head gasket on the X308 is only more complicated from the GM car mentioned in that there is more stuff on the top that has to come off, and the timing chains, which are well documented. Since the head and block are both aluminum, there is a fair chance you have not warped the block, and I bought a good head on e-bay for $150.00 a short time ago. Get the timing chain tools before you start and position the crank with the pin, then lock the cams so you don't do more damage while disassemblying. The biggest bitch for me has been holding the crank while removing the damper bolt- use a big Rigid strap wrench on the damper, not the flywheel pin, and I have rounded the head on an old style head bolt. That caused much pain, resulting in the aforementioned ebay head!
This will take you half way: http://jaguar.blackonyx.net/tech/timingchain.htm
After that you need to get the intake manifold and injector assembly off, then take the exhaust manifold loose from the cats- remove the exhaust manifold with the head.
Good Luck.
Changing the head gasket on the X308 is only more complicated from the GM car mentioned in that there is more stuff on the top that has to come off, and the timing chains, which are well documented. Since the head and block are both aluminum, there is a fair chance you have not warped the block, and I bought a good head on e-bay for $150.00 a short time ago. Get the timing chain tools before you start and position the crank with the pin, then lock the cams so you don't do more damage while disassemblying. The biggest bitch for me has been holding the crank while removing the damper bolt- use a big Rigid strap wrench on the damper, not the flywheel pin, and I have rounded the head on an old style head bolt. That caused much pain, resulting in the aforementioned ebay head!
This will take you half way: http://jaguar.blackonyx.net/tech/timingchain.htm
After that you need to get the intake manifold and injector assembly off, then take the exhaust manifold loose from the cats- remove the exhaust manifold with the head.
Good Luck.
#13
#14
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Can't agree more - what more is there to restricted performance than a cylinder with no compression. Can you imagine what the fuel trim looks like?
This is like a patient with a bullet wound, forget diagnosing and treating a headache. First restore compression to #8 as anything before that or in addition to that will be pretty insignificant now.
This is like a patient with a bullet wound, forget diagnosing and treating a headache. First restore compression to #8 as anything before that or in addition to that will be pretty insignificant now.
#15
#16
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Ummm....Cylinder #8 has no compression. That's diagnostics, that's vital signs and that's direction. It doesn't get clearer than that. Fixing the compression issue is somehow not acting responsibly? And, might cost you what? Doing superfluous diangostics, something for which most shops charge as I do, is acting irresponsibly. Fixing the compression, then seeing what you have is the most direct and efficient path to this problem.
Last edited by steve11; 01-03-2011 at 09:59 AM.
#17
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While I FULLY agree with Gus' basic premise, in this case, Steve's analogy with the ER doctor is right. For a purely academic argument, and the possibility I might learn something, I would ask: What possible diagnostic info could the ECU tell you that would somehow change what yu do next?
#18
#19
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Unless one has actually done a repair like this, it is pretty difficult to imagine what to do next. Dealing in the hypothetical doesn't always align with the practical. No compression in Cyl #8 is pretty catastrophic. Probably the most serious issue with which this car is going to deal. Techs have a practical approach when dealing with multiple issues (if there are multiple issues) - fix the biggest issue first, the theory being - If the biggest issue doesn't junk the engine, then smaller ones can probably be overcome in order of size of impact.
Of course, in this case, I would first verify compression readings were correct, then proceed to the cause of compression loss in 8. It might be something totally catastrophic like a rod let go. If so, then who cares what other codes might have been there. If not, then still who cares what other codes are there. It's likely they were caused by loss of compression in 8. I would expect several emissions related codes if the engine ran w/o compression in 8. If everything else was normal, I would expect probably MAFS codes, Lambda sensors. over fueling, while fuel trim slid off the table trying to over correct for the rich condition in 8, P03xx codes, maybe in multiple cylinders...who cares.
Depending on what happened to 8, the real diagnosis and repair starts with restoring compression, then going from there.
Of course, in this case, I would first verify compression readings were correct, then proceed to the cause of compression loss in 8. It might be something totally catastrophic like a rod let go. If so, then who cares what other codes might have been there. If not, then still who cares what other codes are there. It's likely they were caused by loss of compression in 8. I would expect several emissions related codes if the engine ran w/o compression in 8. If everything else was normal, I would expect probably MAFS codes, Lambda sensors. over fueling, while fuel trim slid off the table trying to over correct for the rich condition in 8, P03xx codes, maybe in multiple cylinders...who cares.
Depending on what happened to 8, the real diagnosis and repair starts with restoring compression, then going from there.
#20