Doug: I don't see Jaguar doing anything different 20 years ago vs 40 years ago vs 60 years ago. Over the period : The made two model lines - the sedan and the sport coupe. With a couple small variations -- like the two door sedan. They did enter and exit racing a few times over the period. Everybody dropped convertibles except Mercedes Benz's SL in the late 70's. Porsche was a very niche player ... they did have the 914 early on .. and it did work to get younger new buyers .. as did the 944 in its day .. but they were very expensive. All the other players were much more money -- or failing. SAAB was around - the 900 convertible came around the same time the XJS convertible did.

Jaguars were just too expensive. I can't remember what my 1995 VDP priced out to -- but it had to be 60k+. Not many young buyers had that. My 1988 Mercedes 560SL was 70k.

We have so many more choices today. Mercedes makes three sedan lines today with so many models it's impossible to keep track of all the possible combinations. Until the water cooled Porsches came out almost no one used a Porsche as a DD -- the 928 being the hope early on .. but a mechanical nightmare.

 

OK Guys. Maybe its the New York/Long Island in me. I threw something out there, and it went on deaf ears. I got a Personal message that was kind, but in a nice way, "keep doing what your doing but this is who we are".

Then Vector, probably a nice guy who means well, told me that if I don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. I NEVER said anything NOT nice. Hence, my comment about giving up. I will move past that because of my love for cars and Jags in particular.

The guys that meet on Sun. mornings are going to set up a facebook page to make it easier for all of you guys that are interested (and I see that some are!!) to see when we meet or if there are other meets.

Last night I told the guy that runs our group that there is interest from the Jag forum and he was excited to have all attend. He, as myself, loves Jags. I will keep you guys informed about this Sunday and the future Facebook page. Moderator: I'm glad that we moved forward. This will be beneficial to all.

There is no cost involved, no ulterior motives, just car guys hanging out and talking cars. The ones who were negative about it will end up showing up too. When we are all together, as opposed to a forum, there is so much to discuss about our cars.

If my XJR is back from the shop, I will bring it this weekend.

 

I thought about bringing my Eldorado to Ceasers Bay. I only have it in town for a few weeks (up to Thanksgiving) for work, then I ship it to Florida. But if it stays longer, I'll be there. I saw pics on the Caddy forum.

 

Yes, but in the early-mid 50s the "XK" sports cars were all the rage. They were true performance cars in their heyday and for a number of years were considered quite stylish. They were on race tracks all over the place. And, to top it off, Jaguar was winning racing with the factory race cars as well.....C-type, D-type, etc

In the 60s we had the XKE which was nothing less than an automotive icon and also a performance oriented model....and a beauty as well! Every schoolboy knew what an XKE was. It even made its way into popular songs.

Then came the 70s. The XKE, hopelessly outdated, was dropped. In comes the XJS. It was an oddball car with such unusual styling that it met with very mixed reviews right from the get go. In terms of power/performance it was competitive, barely, for only a couple years. Soon enough, when there wasn't anything left to brag about....1982 or so.... it was marketed as more of a 'personal luxury' car for the well heeled.

So, it seems to me that since the XKE grew old (late 60s).... and until the late 90s when the "R" models started taking off....there was nothing from Jaguar to captivate the interests of a youthful or performance oriented driver. And certainly nothing for a schoolboy to dream about or aspire to.

Now, in the 2000s, Jaguar finally has some models that can actually compete. 500+ horsepower, great sounds, tire smoke, speed, excitement. All the stuff that was missing for decades.

Cheers
DD

 

Well, no, not really. You threw something out there and now the thread is at 40+ postings ! That's not deaf ears

Here's how I see it in a nutshell.....

You really enjoy car shows and 'cars and coffee' events, to the extent that you wanna encourage others to join in the fun. Nothin' wrong with that.

As it turns out, and apparently to your disappointment, this group isn't so much into that sort of thing. And you've sorta suggested that people who don't do the car show stuff are the reason Jaguar isn't better known or more widely appreciated. Some people were a bit put off by that, understandably. But, if nothing else, it brought out some discussion about how/where Jaguar fits into the marketplace.

Different forums develop different personalities and focus points, it seems. This one is heavy on repair discussion (not unusual, really) but surely there are others that are less so. On-n-off over the years I've been on many different dicussion boards....sometimes (for example) several Jag forums simultaneously, which is sometimes needed to get a full mix of forum personalities.

"It's all good"

Cheers
DD

 

Doug: Trust me people wanted an XJS when they came out ... very few cars could measure up to it at the time ... They were expensive, complicated and had a limit market that could afford them.

The reason for the X350's somewhat strange dimensions ---- The USA market lost many sales for years due to the interior space not accommodating larger people .. this was a problem back in the 60's and the XJ's trunk not being able to take large golf bags . Both final fix in the X350 .. with limited styling success.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. Jaguar suffered from limited development funds until Ford ... they always tried to direct what little they had at the target market for the cars. Fords big push was to cut the build costs and make them reliable. Jaguars always were more expensive then a comparable Mercedes Benz .. because they resale price was so poor.

 

Doug, pretty much in a nutshell as you say IMO

Personally, I believe it was a little negative to make several posts about a possible meet event, get little response, then give up saying that he's giving up "trying to breath some life into this forum" where there's actually plenty of life.

I believe some people, those who have sent dozens if not hundreds of pm's / emails and spent many weeks, even months organising events where maybe 20 - 30 Jaguars turn up, were perhaps a little miffed by it all.

We are probably more repair / mod discussion orientated, but moving forward with meet events, forum banners etc and the like.

I also believe that if Gary channels his enthusiasm he'd be a good asset to the forum in this way, helping to get meets set up and drive it forward.

At least as you say its being discussed more......all good!

As always, anything the mod team or I can do to help, please let us know

 

Right. "At the time" being an important qualifier . Problem is, the XJS became non-competitive in 3-4 years and Jaguar did...... nothing. Rather than improve the car they just changed marketing direction from the "Sports GT" crowd to "Personal Luxury" crowd.




I'm not arguing either.

The general topic of the thread is the Jaguar appeal....or perhaps lack of appeal. And, further, it was mentioned than younger people today don't even know what an XKR is and they (young 'uns) need to be brought back into the fold.

My position is that lack of a performance-oriented model hurt Jaguar for many years, and particularly so with respect to younger buyers. There needs to be some icing on the cake. Something that suggests more excitement and fun than fitting golf bags into the trunk, that is!

Now Jaguar has some performance models and it'll take some time....a few years....for the public to become reacquainted with Jaguar as a performance car.

Cheers
DD

 

Doug: Guess I don't see how the XJS did not stack up against the other brands in the mid 80's. Mercedes Benz stopped delevlopemnt of the new SL and started putting the 3.8 V8 in the "S" class - including the coupe. AMG was not really "in house" until almost 1990.

It was the USA economy .. and then the rapid owner change in the late 80's that caused even more problem. I don't think the cars lacked those wishing to own .. it was at what cost.

The biggest mistake Jaguar made IMO: Starting with the 1995 X300 they should have increased the warranty period above MB and BMW, included maintenance .. and stressed these two points in every advertisement. Jaguar to this day suffers from a reliability cloud that has been gone for two decades. The "x" type is right up there also.

 

I always found it interesting that Found On the Road Dead aka Fix Or Repair Daily could improve the reliability of the Jaguar. But truly FORD did.

Starting with paying a major corporation to re-architect the electrical system (Lucas is still revered as the Prince of Darkness and many older Brits still believe that the RAF lost more planes to Sir John than the Luftwaffe) introducing what is essentially a Nippon Denso system that is bullet proof in the Japanese cars.

Secondly, starting using suppliers that had met or exceeded six sigma performance standards. And in the end, still have issues with electrical connectors.

Working for TRW in the late 80s, we were advised that Ford was going to drop us if we did not achieve six sigma immediately (the CEO was pissed that Cadillac won the Malcolm Baldridge award for quality that year and Lincoln didn't and it was our fault (airbags and connectors). Made it the next year:

CEO flies out to Japan to tell CEO of Toyota of our success and was told that wouldn't get us into the top 100 of their OEM suppliers! But it fixed Jag reliability (Land Rover even more so!).

So I agree: if JAG had bumped their warranty and maintenance to better BMW, LEXUS, and MB, they would have kept sales. (a lesson not lost on Hyundai in marketing 100k mile engine warranty to overcome reliability reputation).

 

I would agree with Doug about Jags. The 60's were golden for the brand. The XJS, was never an SL. And, to me, the 450SL, Mercedes nailed it with that design.

Then came the "R's". The first generation were OK. Then came the 308's. A great car that was sexy and reliable. But as I stated in previous texts, it lacked rear head room, and a poor trunk. No offense to anyone, and I had one, but the XJ8L, looked awkward.

But, the XJS market, supprisingly, is taking a jump in prices. Not because they were great cars, but they became so cheap, that they became desirable. The ones that are left have been soughted out, and they do have a great shape to them. Initial pricing was wrong.

The new XJ's are interesting. I looked at it and the S550 and the 750iL and the Quattroporte. At one point the leases were similiar. The XJ's weren't selling. Now leases are $500.00 less then the S550.

In my opinion, the interior is very well done. One of the best. The exterior, IMO, a non event. Not sexy or exclusive enough. Just another four door. But for $500.00 less than a S550...it becomes a consideration. It also took to long to offer all wheel drive.

I love the F type. I haven't tracked the F type yet, but I plan to soon. The issue with the F type, its priced in the 911 territory not the Boxster territory. They are trying. The parent company is committed to make it what it was.

I may be wrong but I think Jaguar could of been or should be what Masarratti has become. I am waiting to see the next generation of the XJ's. If they get it right, they will be on everyones list for the next 5-7 yrs.

I think Ian Callum is listening!! Also, remember the current XJ's were designed under Ford and was way into development to abandon them. Tata knew this and knew they had to keep it for 5-7 yrs.

It has run it course and now lets wait and see. Personally, I think it will take some styling cues from the 308's.

 

You are correct. Ford did pump lots of money into it. And left them alone. But the warranty!!! They didn't get that. Ford's master plan was a great one. Have premium brands, Aston, Land Rover and Jag. VW is doing it with huge success. The economy hurt them in 08. I heard Ford didn't want to sell Jaguar, but land Rover had to go. Tata would only buy both. That was it. Jaguar was a 20 yr project. But time ran out. personally, I am happy that a consotium of car guys didn't buy it, and it was sold to a real car company. Look at Aston. Bought from Ford and had many problems until recently when the teamed up with new owners. Also, Ford MUST get Lincoln on the right track, or they will be gone.

 

I'm not arguing either.

The general topic of the thread is the Jaguar appeal....or perhaps lack of appeal. And, further, it was mentioned than younger people today don't even know what an XKR is and they (young 'uns) need to be brought back into the fold.

My position is that lack of a performance-oriented model hurt Jaguar for many years, and particularly so with respect to younger buyers. There needs to be some icing on the cake. Something that suggests more excitement and fun than fitting golf bags into the trunk, that is!

Now Jaguar has some performance models and it'll take some time....a few years....for the public to become reacquainted with Jaguar as a performance car.

Cheers
DD[/QUOTE]

Your right. This was my point for the last few days.

 

Jaguar never had any money -- they always had to borrow model to model .. forever. Until Ford -- look how long the V8 took to develop with all of Fords money. Jaguar was in much worse shape than Ford understood when they purchased it. Ford lost money every year they owned Jaguar -- and sold it at a massive loss. I would love to see the lease loss figures on the XJ (x300 -x308) .. massive.

Jaguar had to change the x300 for 1996 -- making the VDP longer and the rear roof higher. The market in the USA demanded it ... I never liked it .. but they had to do it for the USA marketing department. They were loosing sales to BMW and MB .. both makes had massive sedans at the time ... and sadly the trunk mattered. Jaguar's were never practical cars .. people bought them because they were nice looking and road well. The lack of space killed a lot of sales .... Lots of people could not fit in the XKE.

The XJS was never built to be a convertible .. it was not an SL. The point I was trying to make bringing up the SL was that even MB, who knew how to sell very expensive cars .. was undecided about a new SL in the early 80's .... the economy sucked .. fuel was expensive and in short supply. They dropped the SLC because people wanted a larger coupe. The new SL did not come out until 1990 ... people forget how expensive MB's were in the 80's -- in relative terms much more then today. If MB suffered in the segment Jaguar was going to ... later on the same forces almost pushed Porsche over the edge.

I bought a new SL in 1988 .. and still had my 1982 XJ6 ... The SL replaced an old XJS coupe. I was not about to buy a late 80's Jaguar .... I ended up buying an MB 300SDL to replace the XJ. I did not buy another new Jaguar until 1995. Jaguar was really a mess by the mid 80's ... nothing fit .. the paint was horrible ... the presses were old and then ... the XJ40 was ugly! Jaguar had no money to develop an XJS replacement.

It was also my understanding that they could not supercharge the old S6 until the changes were made to the motor in 1994 -- and the V12 would no longer fit or pass EPA rules .. and the V8 was delayed. BMW and VW (a surprise) have had no problem using parts to make the various up-market brands .... Ford thought they could go the other way and get away with making the Thunderbird .. and then the Lincoln LS out of the "S" type .. well it did not work. I have had people asking if the Jaguar V8 motor is from a mustang.

Maybe I'm a bit biased: I have always loved Jaguars ... not always "in love". I have my share of stories (bad) .. same with MB's. I have only owned a couple of BMW's - so my knowledge is poor.

 

I always thought the X308 looked awkward from some angles as a long wheelbase. The X350 seemed to wear it better as a taller body. There are some styling cues I prefer of the X350, but even though I own one and did buy because I wanted the long wheelbase, I see the SWB X308 to be the more attractive looking car.

 

For Garyes:

This copy from another thread explains why many of us are active in this forum -- it saves us a lot of money and time, keeps the cars on the road, and meets other goals (like not helping the local dealer send his kid to Harvard Law). The below is a classic example of how sharing experience pays dividends. And most of us have stories like this one:


"Throttle Position sensor solution
Today 01:54 PM by Icotelaw

For those experiencing throttle position sensor issues, here is something to try before replacing that throttle body: I was experiencing limited performance mode with codes related to the throttle position sensor. It was random, though occurring on a daily basis, requiring a clearing of the codes to get out of limited performance mode. The throttle body had been changed 3 years earlier for the same problem. What I decided to do was to, with the car off, simply step on the accelerator pedal multiple times, in effect, operating the potentiometers in the tps throughout their full range. Most potentiometers have as part of their variable resister set up a "wiper" type device to clear the contact surface, so operating the pot throughout its entire range can clear corrosion or debris that is interfering with contact of the variable resister. Well, this did the trick, I have gone a week without any problems and no codes.

It won't work for every problem, but its worth a try before spending money on a rebuilt or new throttle body. Moral of the story is that I must need a heavier foot!

Today, 03:20 PM
yeldogt yeldogt
Senior Member
This was my suggestion in a thread a while back. I do it all the time now and have not had an issue ... in ... could be two years.
I'm not sure how most TPS are designed. The one Jaguar uses in the later 308's is actually two resister pathways (not sure of the correct term) -- I believe one is increasing and the other decreasing. The computer monitors both legs ... I guess they have it set up this way for safety -- since this sensor is vital to control the cruse control and the ASC functions. I know the early Ford sensors only used one pathway. So unfortunately -- a problem on only one side will get an error. That could be why it is not available on the aftermarket. I was at the dealer one day and the tech showed me the diagram and explained the operation."

Some like to share how to keep it like new; others (not many) will trade secrets on boring out the the throttle bore and goosing it 600Hp plus). There is even a guy in Moscow that has spent more on new parts than the car cost brand new. A couple of years back, on the Range Rover Sport forum there were ten threads on why or why not putting 24" bicycle wheels on a RRS/SC. The message: there is room for everybody and most of us read every post. Stay in touch.

 

my turn ...

I bought a XJR because I saw one while riding to bus to get parts for the previous car. At the time I had been looking at the AMG C class.

I bought the car because of it's lines.

That has nothing to do with going to car shows, posting pictures of it on facebook or tweeting about it on twitter. It is not a social accessory.

It also has nothing to do with plugging an ipod into the sound system, nor pairing a phone with the sound system. Cars are for driving, not a rolling entertainment center *** office.

Every car I have owned has my own added touches. To that end, I read the manual, buy factory service manuals when I can, and in the case of Jaguar, I also have JEPC loaded.

With regard to JF, the truly meaty posts are few and far between. Using "today's posts" usually brings up 300 or so threads for the day. Of those, a dozen might be worth reading. A few worth answering. The remainder, not so much. There are far too many who want someone else to track down a part number, do their shopping, do their searching, do their reading. They will never advance in their craft because they want to be spoon fed. There is a forum that actually has a faq entry entitled what is spoon feeding. Alternatively, do some reading at canyoncarvers.com

some examples from the hall of shame:

Obviously not DIY people. Especially the last one who flew off the handle when told to use a tape measure or even a sheet of letter paper to measure.

++

 

Judging by 58 posts it looks like there is NO problem with us Jaguar owners after all. I am enjoying this thread - well right up until my choice of a VDP was insulted. HA! But hey, my family loves the room in the back seat and I love the ride


For me, this forum is a global car meet every single day. I get to be part of cars and coffee (actually, boats and beer for us long wheelbase folk) with more Jag owners than I could ever hope to meet locally. I have received help (and try to pay it forward) from people all over the world. Every performance mod that I have made came from what I learned on this forum. Every dollar that I have saved in repairing my car has been helped from posts on this forum.


I have never been to a Jag dealer, or any repair shop, with my car - likely never will. I read horror posts everyday of people getting hosed by the dealer, and some independents too, trying to keep there cars running. They just throw crazy expensive parts at the car and the owners have to write the checks for all the failed attempts at repairs. Hats off to all the people on this forum who help others with their problems.


No matter what your interest is in our cars the info is all here. The posts on pushing the performance envelope are here but they are now older threads. That that is no different from any other car forum section dealing with 12-15 year old cars.


I also have an '05 Subaru Legacy that I have heavily modified. I have learned a ton from reading Subie forums. However, I have to weed out so much BS from posters who swear that their cars do 11 second 1/4 miles (but can't find their time slips). So much less of that here - it is really refreshing

 

plums:

Not disagreeing with you per se, but I do feel the need to add that one of the strengths of this forum is its openness to newbies and those without a ton of technical know-how. It is sometimes hard to distinguish between those who just want to be spoon fed, and those who are inexperienced or don't know how to use the search function, etc. I thus try to err on the side of charity when replying to posts, as do many others. The same thing cannot be said of other automotive forums where simpler or repetitive posts tend to be met with condescension IF they are even answered at all. I'm grateful, for example, for the Volvo forum I'm a part of, but the majority of the posts in my model section go unanswered; whereas here, somebody always makes an attempt, and in many cases, a number of somebodies. Another thing about which I think we can be proud.

one more thing...

Did Doug just call us all old and boring???????

Cheers to all!
Scott

 

Lol@ Doug calling us all boring

Scott, Thanks so much for pointing that out ( highlighted in bold )

Its something we strive for, push for and have done for a long long time. The "RTFM" manual isn't acceptable here or any variant thereof.
We are genuinely here to help when and where we can.

I do know it can get frustrating at times, and rest assured that anyone who milks it would probably end up getting a pm at some point.

I guess the ethos is, "if in doubt, say nowt", or " if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"

After all, we were all new here once either having troubles with our cars or perhaps using the forum.

Thank you one and all