Rainere wrote:

That's not such a bad start, I think. Most of the time it's not the material that makes repairs so costly, it's the hourly rates for the work.
Under the given circumstances it may be worth for Rainere to consider to postpone the purchase and to restock the planned amount. To be able to buy a younger X308, built in 2002 or even later. Then at least the tensioner issue does not exist.

However, the short haul usage certainly will make for some headache if the car won't be driven for about 50 miles once or twice a week as a compensation. Including some high speed episodes, if possible. Somehow I overlooked that point before posting my first reply.

Taking this into account I tend to recommend to buy a "city hopper" (a car of the likes of a small Toyota) for now and to put an eye on the Jags again when driving habits and personal circumstances male it easier for Rainere to buy and maintain one.

 

Well, we both have our own viewpoints & I'm sure we'll both stick rigidly to them.

I put 50,000 miles on the BMW V8 without any problems-I've put around 60,000 miles on the old BMW M30 straight sixes, and around 150,000 miles on various BMW 2.5 straight sixes without any serious problems

Oh, and I've also put around 60,000 miles on the old BMW 525tds whilst running on chip-fat & homebrew BioDiesel as well, again without any catastrophic failures.

As for the Audi A8 with belt drive-it's generally expected that belts need changing & don't last the lifetime of the car. You don't expect this with timing chains, and that's where the Jag V8 falls down very badly-I make no apologies for saying that.

I had an e-mail earlier from my friend in Cincinatti who works at a Jag dealership there. They've just got a 2001 XJ8 in which has snapped it's secondary timing chains a day or so ago because of tensioner failure-they carried out a cylinder leakdown test which also points towards bent valves & probably piston damage as well. So the poor owner is going to get a nasty shock to his bank balance now for a major engine overhaul requiring all new timing gear, the cylinder heads to come off to repalce bent valves. and the bottom end checked for any bent rods or shattered big-end bearings as the pistons hit the valves & shock-loaded the rods & bearings.

Not really the kind of motoring experience to recommend a guy who has never owned a car before & is on a limited budget with limited mechanical knowledge, is it?

I stand by my accusation-the Jag V8 can throw you a knockout punch to the bank balance without any warning. In my opinion they are only suitable for people who either have a well-butressed wallet, or possessed of mechanical knowledge & can do their homework properly before buying one.

The 'M' series BMW engines are indeed susceptible to throwing rods-a batch of faulty rods was supplied to BMW so the fault was with the supplier & not the inherent design. Also, the 'M' series engines cannot really be compared to a 'cooking' non-supercharged Jag V8. The 2 cars attract different sets of customers & people will expect the high-revving BMW 'M' series engines to be highly stressed units.

A bog-standard naturally-aspirated Jag V8 is not the vehicle to drive like an 'M' series BMW, so you'd expect the understressed Jag unit to be more reliable & not throw a wobbler causing the engine to disentegrate due to a simple piece of plastic failing in the timing gear set-up.

We're not talking about a blown head gasket here if the tensioners fail-head gasket failures are easier & cheaper to rectify than snapped timing chains, bent valves, indented pistons & bent con-rods when a cheap bit of plastic fails in one of the most critical parts of the engine, causing a valve-to-piston crash.

Jag V8's are fine for the likes of us on this forum, with knowledge & mechanical experience to cope with the car's foibles. I know my XJR & I understand it-I know what to expect & I'm prepared for it. I have the tools & mechanical experience to strip the engine down if required, as well as all the Jaguar technical documentation & repair procedures.

But the guy on this thread has never owned a car before, is on a limited budget & has limited mechanical knowledge & experience. Therefore my own personal viewpoint is that he should steer well clear of these cars until he has some experience of car ownership & repairs on something more basic.

If you've got the money & experience, then fine-go ahead & take the plunge. But if you're new to the scene, start with something that will stay within your own personal limitations.

The Jag is a great car-pretty to look at & seductive to drive. But it was a $50,000 car when new & so the repair bills are still in that league-the parts haven't depreciated in price.

The Jag is the English rose-but all roses have thorns, so you do need to keep a pair of gloves handy

 

Fair enough, but the "car illiterate" will have to be very
careful for cars of this era. Even a Honda Accord of this
period is known for significant problems, including EGR
valves, EVAP purge solenoids, and automatic trans faults.
Lower ball joints also had short service lives on these models,
and the OPDS sensors were faulty quite often and aren't
cheap to fix.

It is a matter of preventative maintenance in terms of those
tensioners, it is extremely well known by us, and any one of
us who gives a hint of advice will make them known. I also
concur that the car which he specifically describes sounds like
a nightmare, a combination of too much $, too high of miles,
and the wrong year.

To compare with the use/expectations of an M engine, the Jaguar
V8 revs to 7000 RPM in stock form, just 100-200 rpms off the pace
of an S62, with the horsepower per litre only off by 7. (80 vs 73)
and the forged bottom end in even the N/A Jag is impressive to
say the least. All engines today are interference designs, and those
tensioners can go quite a long time before they grenade the engine.
I don't know what I would recommend in his situation, but giving the
Jag bottom-of-the-barrel ratings is hardly fair. It has known issues
but even the 98-99 cars, were they to have a tensioner failure,
don't always kill the whole engine. Sometimes it only jumps 1-2 teeth
and just breaks it down, doing no permanent damage. It is all relative
to me, but the 99 with that mileage sounds like a bad recommendation
to me as well. I did a lot of research before going with a Jag X308, but I certainly
haven't regretted it.

Like you've said, doing your homework is key. And whenever he comes
to this thread to read it, he has a lot of homework to do.

 

Fair point...

The one obvious factor here is for any prospective owner to do their research & homework when considering one of these cars.

For many years I lusted after the X308's & spent a long time going through the vehicle history & the least troublesome model year to go for. I saw many tempting 1997/8 XJR's with around 70-90k miles on them, but instead went for my present 2001 XJR for the same price but with 138k miles on it. I knew that by 2001 quite a lot-although not all-of the earlier issues had been sorted out & the bodyshell was newer so less likely to be rusty.

The OP would be better advised not to spend the whole of his budget on the outright purchase price of the car & hope that it will only require a monthly trickle of maintenance costs.

It's probably better to spend around 2/3rds of the budget on the purchase price of the car & keep the other 1/3rd for any unexpected repairs whist 'acclimatising' to the new car.

I appreciate that all old cars are going to need maintenance of some sort & that all makes will have faults-but the Jag tensioner issue is quite a serious problem, as highlighted by my friend in Cincinatti who's just got that 2001 XJ8 in with a snapped chain.

At the very least it's going to need the front of the engine dismantled to replace the chains etc & that in itself is not a cheap job for someone on a budget. The fact that the cylinder leak-down test gave poor results for a 2001 non-nikasil engine means that there must be bent valves, so the heads have to come off as well meaning more labour & parts costs.

If there's one good thing to come out of this strong debate, it's that the OP will be able to sit down & review the situation more carefully now.

If he still wants a Jag very badly, then the safest option is to maybe consider a reasonably priced high-mileage 2002/2003 model, which had the big issues of secondary tensioners & 'A' clutch drums resolved by then.

At least that way he'd avoid the 'catastrophic' car-killer failures & would then only have to cope with the more usual smaller failure items that cost hundreds to fix rather than thousands

 

The blue XJR titans have hopefully produced something
useful at the end of the day

Another considersation is, the 98 XJR is probably a better
idea than the XJ8, given the extra strength of the gearbox.

I was feeling risky going for a Jaguar of my mileage, but
the Merc transmission is just so much stronger from what
I've learned. I can't afford a gearbox overhaul!! So going
from a 60k mi 02 XJ Sport to an 03 92k XJR seems to have been
wise. it's up to 99k now, time to update ye olde signature.

Ian

 

Maybe our hopeful new buyer will also see the wisdom & get a late model blue XJR to join our merry debate for a proper 'Clash of the Titans'

I do agree that whilst it may sound contradictory, the XJR is actually a better mechanical risk than the XJ8 for the following reasons:

1) It has the much stronger Mercedes gearbox which never had the problems that beset the early ZF units in the XJ8 with 'A' clutch drums etc

2) It didn't have the added complication of the VVT units that were on the XJ8

Another thing I found is that, here in the UK at least, the XJR is much easier & cheaper to insure than the equivalent 'M' series BMW/AMG Merc/Audi RS etc. The Jag is so much more of a 'sleeper' & the criminals preferred to nick the 'M' series BMW's instead to do their ram-raiding etc, so the XJR is less of an insurance risk here in the UK & has a better reputation for attracting more considerate owners with less aggressive driving styles than the German opposition seems to attract.

I also decided from a personal point of view that if I was going to have a big Jag that could only manage around 25mpg, I'd rather do it with a supercharger on the engine to add more bang for your buck

The girls also love the Jag too & one is regarded as more of a gentleman-the soft cream leather charms the ladies very effectively

However, if one is challenged by an 'oik', then the XJR can quickly roll up it's shirt sleeves to expose a supercharged V8 pair of iron forearms-which quickly shuts down the Hooray Henry's

I've got 150k miles on my XJR gearbox & my friend in Cincinatti has over 217k on his XJR gearbox-so they are strong units & generally much less troublesome than the ZF box in the standard XJ8.

The ideal X308 which ticks all the boxes has to be a late model XJR from the 2002/2003 model years-metal secondary tensioners & the bulletproof Merc gearbox.

Our OP should really try & go for one of those models-even if he has to save up the dollars for a while longer to get a good example, as it's a 'car for life'. Can't imagine life without my XJR now-there's no other car that can so so many different things & play so many different roles.

Take the kids to school, do the shopping, charm the ladies, roll up outside a posh establishment, take the family out for a relaxing cruise in comfort-or play the hard-charging street racer away from the lights with that supercharger whining. The XJR does it all

 

And the OP has not been heard from since. (?)

 

I totally agree, the dual-purpose nature of the vehicle
is one of its strongest suits. Posh interior/exterior,
excellent road manners, brilliant acceleration at any
time. It works if you're in a hurry, too. We tell ourselves
that since we're purists a manual is always better.

My car would not be anywhere near as user friendly
if it were manual. My friends with manuals are leading
more difficult lives for the extra 15% of extra enjoyment
a manual delivers on those backroads.

Mine works too. Enough room to get my stuff halfway
across America, including my guitar, and to go to the
drag strip when I get there, only after leaving it with
the valet at my hotel. I needed a car that could do
everything. Cross vast distances, keep up with cocky
Porsche drivers on backstretches, tell off all but the
newest of BMW M3s at the lights... it is truly a do-all
car.

Taking mine on the track was a huge joy too.

Remember, my 25-26mpg quote is USA mpg. That is
around 28 in rods, ares, or whatever England measures it
in these days

We do this a lot on Jaguar Forums. Longingly describing
how much we love our cars. It's brilliant to get butterflies
when describing your 4d saloon!

@mikey... I think you are right. Maybe OP is a Bimmerforums
cadet sent here specifically to waste our time, as an initiation
test for their fraternal order.

Ian

 

In England these days MPG is measured in how much fuel tax goes to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to spend on the UK national debt & infrastructure projects

I think my XJR must be doing around 2 new schools to the gallon then

The traffic's so hideous in most UK towns & cities now that more cars are auto's over here. You have to choose your moments very carefully now to find a clear stretch of road to barrel along, revelling in a flurry of exquisite manual gearchanges.

However, the X308 even has an answer to that-the J gate selector which provides some manual override in a natural plane of movement.

Truly a car for all seasons!

Yes, where has the OP gone? Probably down at the local Kia dealer eyeing up a tasty Picanto

 

I think we killed the OP's dream, and he's feelings are shattered. Let's play with Sandy instead!

 

Oeeerrr-let's hope Sandy is the real deal then & not a 56-year old ex-shot putter from the former East Germany