Tyres for your Jaguar in the face of depreciation
#1
03-05-2013, 07:37 PM
Tyres for your Jaguar in the face of depreciation
I have been on Jaguar Forums since about 2011, and I see a lot of comments concerning the handling and performance of the X308 bodystyle, the X100 bodystyle, by owners, in comparison to BMWs they have owned, or et cetera. Often they are unfavourable. In the case of supercharged models, and CATS (Computer Adaptive Technology Suspension) fitted Jaguars, this is a common line of complaint. The XJ8s, X-Type 2.5s and less sporty models, people often aren’t as interested so they are less vocal.
Once I started to see what the owners of cars that are heavily depreciated were dealing with in terms of tyres, the whole thing started to make some sense. The XK8, XKR, XJR, XJ Sport and X-Type Sport are fitted with 18” wheels, and in the case of the XJ & XK, they are a 255-40ZR18 size, factory tyres are Pirelli Asimmetrico System Z-Rated jobs. This is a $369/ea. proposition, and given the 120Y tread rating, it is understandable that they are not a popular choice. They usually last less than 8,000 miles as well. What I realised, though, was that most of the cars have been since shod with a number of dynamically inferior tyres; and some offenders are worse than others.
Let’s start with one of the most popular options for these owners, the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus. In my view, the tyre is a very competent package, but it is undeserving of the word “Sport”. The comfort and longevity of the tire seem to have been the main focuses in their design. Grip and roadholding are good, but the overall feeling is very dull, and the sidewalls are quite soft, a consequence of the ride. For the driver looking to maximize comfort and minimize tyre turnover, these should do fine. They are warranted by Michelin for a staggering 45,000 miles, and taking into consideration their overall package, this is a relatively good compromise. However, Jaguar is a sporting marque, and the A/S is a cruising tyre, suitable for the daily slog but will leave you wanting when you reach a twisting byway.
The alternative, perhaps, to this Michelin A/S, is the Goodyear Eagle F1 All-Season. My experience with these was not ideal, because the only ones I have driven on were somewhat cupped and nearly 6 years old. I will say that the steering feel off-centre and indeed, steering feel in general is superior to that offered by the Michelins. In their aged state, however, they offered less grip in corners, and significantly less ride comfort due to the carbon fibre sidewalls.
The Pirelli All-season is not all that positively reviewed on the tyre websites, but I am unsure of the driving impression, because I have never driven a Jaguar so equipped.
A decent alternative to the typical, non-focused all-season tyres Jaguar owners are resorting to these days is the inexpensive Falken FK452, a good summer tyre with decent wet grip and good dry handling. Steering retains its great feel, and the car is very sharp both off-centre and stable in lane change manoeuvres. Longevity is not magnificent, with my set lasting around 20,000 miles, but it makes the car feel like a Jaguar should. No sidewall slap to speak of, and a sharpness begetting the more focused driver. A popular comparison may come from the slightly more expensive BFGoodrich KDW2, which seems to be a bit lower on grip (only marginally), but slightly longer lived. A few notable others are the Yokohama S-Drive, on the XK8 they offered sticky grip and were nice and sharp. But unlike the other tyres we are discussing, these were temperamental. They flat-spotted when parked overnight, meaning until they were warm you were not getting the best out of them. The Goodyear Eagle RSA would not be a top choice for me, but it seems adequate. Steering feel wasn’t bad, grip was pretty good, and the off-centre sharpness was up to snuff. They were relatively expensive, if memory serves.
My final musing will be on my current shoes, the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. Michelin call it the “Best performing street tire in the world,” and I think I agree. It is amazingly well suited to most conditions on the road. Its ride comfort is barely a sacrifice at all from the squishy A/S Plus, but is far superior to any of the other summer tyres I have experience with. The limit handling has the most predictable and neutral characteristics of any tire above, a result from racing experience, I suspect. Highway confidence, stability and efficiency are very good. You get the impression that the car is always 100% in touch with the tarmac, whereas other tires often can’t transfer weight around so gracefully. The Michelin is made with 4/5ths winter tread compound, as well. So, an added bonus is that they are totally competent in cold weather, where other summer rubber will get harder and less grippy more easily. Remember that Michelin not only offers the chance to unconditionally return the tyres within 30 days if not satisfied, but also that they include free roadside assistance for 2 years and 24,000 miles. And the PSS is warranted for 30,000 miles, and is just about the only summer tyre with any such warranty.
The Super Sport suits an R’s handling perfectly, with the supple ride of a Jaguar intact, and the great steering feel, great roadholding and handling that the original XKs and XJs shod with (what is essentially a set of racing tyres) Pirellis would’ve had originally. The all-seasons don’t really do the cars justice, if you asked me. So, whenever I hear someone complain about their XJ or XK’s handling or feel for the road, the first thing I ask is, “What kind of tyres are on it?”, because they are the difference between a Jag with good MPG, good roadholding, good braking, and good steering, (even acceleration off the line) and one without those things to the same extent.
This will also be published in my local Jaguar Club newsletter at some point, but I figured it was an OK read for both them and you guys.
Ian
Once I started to see what the owners of cars that are heavily depreciated were dealing with in terms of tyres, the whole thing started to make some sense. The XK8, XKR, XJR, XJ Sport and X-Type Sport are fitted with 18” wheels, and in the case of the XJ & XK, they are a 255-40ZR18 size, factory tyres are Pirelli Asimmetrico System Z-Rated jobs. This is a $369/ea. proposition, and given the 120Y tread rating, it is understandable that they are not a popular choice. They usually last less than 8,000 miles as well. What I realised, though, was that most of the cars have been since shod with a number of dynamically inferior tyres; and some offenders are worse than others.
Let’s start with one of the most popular options for these owners, the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus. In my view, the tyre is a very competent package, but it is undeserving of the word “Sport”. The comfort and longevity of the tire seem to have been the main focuses in their design. Grip and roadholding are good, but the overall feeling is very dull, and the sidewalls are quite soft, a consequence of the ride. For the driver looking to maximize comfort and minimize tyre turnover, these should do fine. They are warranted by Michelin for a staggering 45,000 miles, and taking into consideration their overall package, this is a relatively good compromise. However, Jaguar is a sporting marque, and the A/S is a cruising tyre, suitable for the daily slog but will leave you wanting when you reach a twisting byway.
The alternative, perhaps, to this Michelin A/S, is the Goodyear Eagle F1 All-Season. My experience with these was not ideal, because the only ones I have driven on were somewhat cupped and nearly 6 years old. I will say that the steering feel off-centre and indeed, steering feel in general is superior to that offered by the Michelins. In their aged state, however, they offered less grip in corners, and significantly less ride comfort due to the carbon fibre sidewalls.
The Pirelli All-season is not all that positively reviewed on the tyre websites, but I am unsure of the driving impression, because I have never driven a Jaguar so equipped.
A decent alternative to the typical, non-focused all-season tyres Jaguar owners are resorting to these days is the inexpensive Falken FK452, a good summer tyre with decent wet grip and good dry handling. Steering retains its great feel, and the car is very sharp both off-centre and stable in lane change manoeuvres. Longevity is not magnificent, with my set lasting around 20,000 miles, but it makes the car feel like a Jaguar should. No sidewall slap to speak of, and a sharpness begetting the more focused driver. A popular comparison may come from the slightly more expensive BFGoodrich KDW2, which seems to be a bit lower on grip (only marginally), but slightly longer lived. A few notable others are the Yokohama S-Drive, on the XK8 they offered sticky grip and were nice and sharp. But unlike the other tyres we are discussing, these were temperamental. They flat-spotted when parked overnight, meaning until they were warm you were not getting the best out of them. The Goodyear Eagle RSA would not be a top choice for me, but it seems adequate. Steering feel wasn’t bad, grip was pretty good, and the off-centre sharpness was up to snuff. They were relatively expensive, if memory serves.
My final musing will be on my current shoes, the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. Michelin call it the “Best performing street tire in the world,” and I think I agree. It is amazingly well suited to most conditions on the road. Its ride comfort is barely a sacrifice at all from the squishy A/S Plus, but is far superior to any of the other summer tyres I have experience with. The limit handling has the most predictable and neutral characteristics of any tire above, a result from racing experience, I suspect. Highway confidence, stability and efficiency are very good. You get the impression that the car is always 100% in touch with the tarmac, whereas other tires often can’t transfer weight around so gracefully. The Michelin is made with 4/5ths winter tread compound, as well. So, an added bonus is that they are totally competent in cold weather, where other summer rubber will get harder and less grippy more easily. Remember that Michelin not only offers the chance to unconditionally return the tyres within 30 days if not satisfied, but also that they include free roadside assistance for 2 years and 24,000 miles. And the PSS is warranted for 30,000 miles, and is just about the only summer tyre with any such warranty.
The Super Sport suits an R’s handling perfectly, with the supple ride of a Jaguar intact, and the great steering feel, great roadholding and handling that the original XKs and XJs shod with (what is essentially a set of racing tyres) Pirellis would’ve had originally. The all-seasons don’t really do the cars justice, if you asked me. So, whenever I hear someone complain about their XJ or XK’s handling or feel for the road, the first thing I ask is, “What kind of tyres are on it?”, because they are the difference between a Jag with good MPG, good roadholding, good braking, and good steering, (even acceleration off the line) and one without those things to the same extent.
This will also be published in my local Jaguar Club newsletter at some point, but I figured it was an OK read for both them and you guys.
Ian
Last edited by Ipc838; 03-06-2013 at 12:59 AM. Reason: Separated text mass!
#2
03-05-2013, 08:06 PM
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Kuhmo don't get a mention? Speed rated,yes. Road holding,yes. Price,OH YES. Longevity,yes. (although I only use the first 50% and trade them back,approx 25,000K) Ride perfect and not a squeak when pushed to where I'm pinned against the drivers door.
Con. Tend to flat spot after sitting for a week resulting in a steering vibration 'til warm.
Con. Tend to flat spot after sitting for a week resulting in a steering vibration 'til warm.
#3
03-05-2013, 08:29 PM
Veteran Member
#4
03-05-2013, 08:48 PM
Well, the 8" wheel is too small for 255, but
245s offer no protection from curbs at all. (I
ran them on the XJ Sport and even touching a
curb at micro speed would take a scrape out
of the lip. The 255 saves your wheel and is
the factory size, and the speedometer will
never be accurate when you choose other sizes.
245-40-18 is close but not quite there.
I didn't mention Kumho, because I don't have
any experience with them, I'm sorry.
Plums, would you be able to edit my title to end
with the words "In a world of depreciation"?
Thanks
Ian
245s offer no protection from curbs at all. (I
ran them on the XJ Sport and even touching a
curb at micro speed would take a scrape out
of the lip. The 255 saves your wheel and is
the factory size, and the speedometer will
never be accurate when you choose other sizes.
245-40-18 is close but not quite there.
I didn't mention Kumho, because I don't have
any experience with them, I'm sorry.
Plums, would you be able to edit my title to end
with the words "In a world of depreciation"?
Thanks
Ian
#5
03-05-2013, 11:24 PM
Senior Member
I now fully believe in the two sets philosophy. A set of dedicated summer tires and a set of dedicated winter tires. While initial investment is high, they actually all last significantly longer than running a set of all seasons twice, because you are running tires optimized for each season.
For summer, I have had excellent results with the Kumho Ecsta LE Sport. They offer an excellent blend of wet traction, dry traction, longevity, comfort, and low NVH. They are one of the cheapest "maximum" performance summer tires on the market, and yet offer similar performance to MUCH more expensive tires, and still last 30-40k miles easily. If there is anything I don't like about them, it is that they are not a particularly attractive tire. The sidewall is kind of ugly, and they aren't as square-shouldered as others, so they don't look very aggressive. But this is a small complaint for an otherwise amazing tire at an extremely low price point.
The other tire I have run with good results is the Hankook Ventus V12 Evo K112. This is an extremely similar tire to the LE Sport. Price is almost identical, as is dry and wet grip performance (both excellent). The difference is in the sidewall. The Hankook has much softer sidewall construction. This makes it ride somewhat more comfortably, but transitional response and feel is worse in comparison. These are without a doubt the best riding UHP tire on the market. They ride VERY smoothly, and extremely quietly. They are a much better looking tire than the LE Sport as well, with a nice smooth sidewall and square shoulders than make them look quite aggressive.
Either are wonderful choices for those on a budget, as I feel they offer 95% of the performance of FAR more expensive tires while lasting 50% longer and costing half as much. Either is very hard to beat for value.
For winter, I LOVE my Blizzak LM60's. They were very expensive, but have proven absolutely amazing in winter conditions. They let me drive my XJR, by all standard definitions a terrible car in the snow (I'd give quite a lot for a damned limited slip), through 6" of slushy mess. I used a similar setup on my 06 Mustang GT last year, and the difference was amazing. It would barely move with the BFG all seasons that came with the car, but became a nearly unstoppable snow rally machine with the Blizzaks on. I really can't stress enough how much better dedicated winter tires work than all-seasons. If you don't mind changing wheels/tires twice a year and can store the extra set during the off season, they are amazing.
These are just some observations after I have tried the vast majority of the tires on the market. Others I have enjoyed: The Bridgestone Potenza RE760 Sport (excellent grip and transitional response, VERY quiet, awesome wear, but quite expensive), the Nitto NT555 (cheap, very good dry grip, long lasting, but sub-par wet grip and getting to be an old design), the Michelin PS2 (amazing tire, but ridiculously expensive to replace), the Yokohama S.Drive (very nice tire, but quite expensive and very old at this point), and the BFG G-Force KDW2 (EXCELLENT dry grip, VERY long lasting, look great, very inexpensive, but extremely noisy. That cool flame tread pattern comes with a cost).
For summer, I have had excellent results with the Kumho Ecsta LE Sport. They offer an excellent blend of wet traction, dry traction, longevity, comfort, and low NVH. They are one of the cheapest "maximum" performance summer tires on the market, and yet offer similar performance to MUCH more expensive tires, and still last 30-40k miles easily. If there is anything I don't like about them, it is that they are not a particularly attractive tire. The sidewall is kind of ugly, and they aren't as square-shouldered as others, so they don't look very aggressive. But this is a small complaint for an otherwise amazing tire at an extremely low price point.
The other tire I have run with good results is the Hankook Ventus V12 Evo K112. This is an extremely similar tire to the LE Sport. Price is almost identical, as is dry and wet grip performance (both excellent). The difference is in the sidewall. The Hankook has much softer sidewall construction. This makes it ride somewhat more comfortably, but transitional response and feel is worse in comparison. These are without a doubt the best riding UHP tire on the market. They ride VERY smoothly, and extremely quietly. They are a much better looking tire than the LE Sport as well, with a nice smooth sidewall and square shoulders than make them look quite aggressive.
Either are wonderful choices for those on a budget, as I feel they offer 95% of the performance of FAR more expensive tires while lasting 50% longer and costing half as much. Either is very hard to beat for value.
For winter, I LOVE my Blizzak LM60's. They were very expensive, but have proven absolutely amazing in winter conditions. They let me drive my XJR, by all standard definitions a terrible car in the snow (I'd give quite a lot for a damned limited slip), through 6" of slushy mess. I used a similar setup on my 06 Mustang GT last year, and the difference was amazing. It would barely move with the BFG all seasons that came with the car, but became a nearly unstoppable snow rally machine with the Blizzaks on. I really can't stress enough how much better dedicated winter tires work than all-seasons. If you don't mind changing wheels/tires twice a year and can store the extra set during the off season, they are amazing.
These are just some observations after I have tried the vast majority of the tires on the market. Others I have enjoyed: The Bridgestone Potenza RE760 Sport (excellent grip and transitional response, VERY quiet, awesome wear, but quite expensive), the Nitto NT555 (cheap, very good dry grip, long lasting, but sub-par wet grip and getting to be an old design), the Michelin PS2 (amazing tire, but ridiculously expensive to replace), the Yokohama S.Drive (very nice tire, but quite expensive and very old at this point), and the BFG G-Force KDW2 (EXCELLENT dry grip, VERY long lasting, look great, very inexpensive, but extremely noisy. That cool flame tread pattern comes with a cost).
#6
03-06-2013, 12:18 AM
Veteran Member
Well, the 8" wheel is too small for 255, but
245s offer no protection from curbs at all. (I
ran them on the XJ Sport and even touching a
curb at micro speed would take a scrape out
of the lip. The 255 saves your wheel and is
the factory size, and the speedometer will
never be accurate when you choose other sizes.
245-40-18 is close but not quite there.
245s offer no protection from curbs at all. (I
ran them on the XJ Sport and even touching a
curb at micro speed would take a scrape out
of the lip. The 255 saves your wheel and is
the factory size, and the speedometer will
never be accurate when you choose other sizes.
245-40-18 is close but not quite there.
In the recent "tramlining" thread in the X300 section someone put 235/50/17 on their XJR ... looks nice. Admittedly, that is not the same wheel diameter.
But, it illustrates that one can play with width and aspect ratio without going out of bounds as long as attention is paid to diameter.
255/45/18 fills the wheel wells nicely and are not too far off on the speedo. Unfortunately, they are Toyo's. Never buy Toyo's voluntarily.
235/50/18 might be nice for the increase in profile, better fit on the rim, and increased ride comfort. Tirerack shows a nice Yokohama at $168. And I've always been partial to "yokomama's" as well as 50 series tires. Haven't done a detailed check on the dimensions yet.
For handling, lower aspect ratios are not always better unless someone demands that the car act like a go-kart and feels like a go-kart.
-- title edited.
Last edited by plums; 03-06-2013 at 12:21 AM.
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#7
03-06-2013, 04:10 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Kumho Ecsta LE Sport are a tyre worth investigating. Sidewall rim protection and wet road ability added too previous comments. Not sure that appearance is an issue,they are round and black just like all others,but with no white raised side wall writing like a 4 X 4 tyre! Bugger!
I do admit that available tyres in Australia are far more restricted.
I do admit that available tyres in Australia are far more restricted.
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#8
03-06-2013, 05:47 PM
Pirelli made a special tire for Jaguar -- Personally I liked it -- needed to be religiously rotated. When they stopped making it I tried quite a few different brands -- never found one I liked as much. I went with a set of Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 on one and was surprised at how smooth the tire was -- I believe discontinued.
I never liked Michelin tires on the x308 and older Jaguars -- too hard for me. A few have gone with Bridgestone summers and have been happy ... I'm thinking this is what I will do next summer vs going with the modern P-Zero's. If I do I will give a review.
I ran a set of XK8 17" on my x300 VDP with the Jaguar PZero's back in 1997 and they worked out very well - but that was with the softer sidewalls
The dealers often used P6000 for replacements -- never liked them.
For winters I have been using the the Dunlop SP winter sports the past few years on three different cars (17" on the x308)... I like them over the Blizzaks that I had previously always used.
I never liked Michelin tires on the x308 and older Jaguars -- too hard for me. A few have gone with Bridgestone summers and have been happy ... I'm thinking this is what I will do next summer vs going with the modern P-Zero's. If I do I will give a review.
I ran a set of XK8 17" on my x300 VDP with the Jaguar PZero's back in 1997 and they worked out very well - but that was with the softer sidewalls
The dealers often used P6000 for replacements -- never liked them.
For winters I have been using the the Dunlop SP winter sports the past few years on three different cars (17" on the x308)... I like them over the Blizzaks that I had previously always used.
#9
03-08-2013, 05:53 PM
I now fully believe in the two sets philosophy. A set of dedicated summer tires and a set of dedicated winter tires. While initial investment is high, they actually all last significantly longer than running a set of all seasons twice, because you are running tires optimized for each season.
For summer, I have had excellent results with the Kumho Ecsta LE Sport. They offer an excellent blend of wet traction, dry traction, longevity, comfort, and low NVH. They are one of the cheapest "maximum" performance summer tires on the market, and yet offer similar performance to MUCH more expensive tires, and still last 30-40k miles easily. If there is anything I don't like about them, it is that they are not a particularly attractive tire. The sidewall is kind of ugly, and they aren't as square-shouldered as others, so they don't look very aggressive. But this is a small complaint for an otherwise amazing tire at an extremely low price point.
The other tire I have run with good results is the Hankook Ventus V12 Evo K112. This is an extremely similar tire to the LE Sport. Price is almost identical, as is dry and wet grip performance (both excellent). The difference is in the sidewall. The Hankook has much softer sidewall construction. This makes it ride somewhat more comfortably, but transitional response and feel is worse in comparison. These are without a doubt the best riding UHP tire on the market. They ride VERY smoothly, and extremely quietly. They are a much better looking tire than the LE Sport as well, with a nice smooth sidewall and square shoulders than make them look quite aggressive.
Either are wonderful choices for those on a budget, as I feel they offer 95% of the performance of FAR more expensive tires while lasting 50% longer and costing half as much. Either is very hard to beat for value.
For winter, I LOVE my Blizzak LM60's. They were very expensive, but have proven absolutely amazing in winter conditions. They let me drive my XJR, by all standard definitions a terrible car in the snow (I'd give quite a lot for a damned limited slip), through 6" of slushy mess. I used a similar setup on my 06 Mustang GT last year, and the difference was amazing. It would barely move with the BFG all seasons that came with the car, but became a nearly unstoppable snow rally machine with the Blizzaks on. I really can't stress enough how much better dedicated winter tires work than all-seasons. If you don't mind changing wheels/tires twice a year and can store the extra set during the off season, they are amazing.
These are just some observations after I have tried the vast majority of the tires on the market. Others I have enjoyed: The Bridgestone Potenza RE760 Sport (excellent grip and transitional response, VERY quiet, awesome wear, but quite expensive), the Nitto NT555 (cheap, very good dry grip, long lasting, but sub-par wet grip and getting to be an old design), the Michelin PS2 (amazing tire, but ridiculously expensive to replace), the Yokohama S.Drive (very nice tire, but quite expensive and very old at this point), and the BFG G-Force KDW2 (EXCELLENT dry grip, VERY long lasting, look great, very inexpensive, but extremely noisy. That cool flame tread pattern comes with a cost).
For summer, I have had excellent results with the Kumho Ecsta LE Sport. They offer an excellent blend of wet traction, dry traction, longevity, comfort, and low NVH. They are one of the cheapest "maximum" performance summer tires on the market, and yet offer similar performance to MUCH more expensive tires, and still last 30-40k miles easily. If there is anything I don't like about them, it is that they are not a particularly attractive tire. The sidewall is kind of ugly, and they aren't as square-shouldered as others, so they don't look very aggressive. But this is a small complaint for an otherwise amazing tire at an extremely low price point.
The other tire I have run with good results is the Hankook Ventus V12 Evo K112. This is an extremely similar tire to the LE Sport. Price is almost identical, as is dry and wet grip performance (both excellent). The difference is in the sidewall. The Hankook has much softer sidewall construction. This makes it ride somewhat more comfortably, but transitional response and feel is worse in comparison. These are without a doubt the best riding UHP tire on the market. They ride VERY smoothly, and extremely quietly. They are a much better looking tire than the LE Sport as well, with a nice smooth sidewall and square shoulders than make them look quite aggressive.
Either are wonderful choices for those on a budget, as I feel they offer 95% of the performance of FAR more expensive tires while lasting 50% longer and costing half as much. Either is very hard to beat for value.
For winter, I LOVE my Blizzak LM60's. They were very expensive, but have proven absolutely amazing in winter conditions. They let me drive my XJR, by all standard definitions a terrible car in the snow (I'd give quite a lot for a damned limited slip), through 6" of slushy mess. I used a similar setup on my 06 Mustang GT last year, and the difference was amazing. It would barely move with the BFG all seasons that came with the car, but became a nearly unstoppable snow rally machine with the Blizzaks on. I really can't stress enough how much better dedicated winter tires work than all-seasons. If you don't mind changing wheels/tires twice a year and can store the extra set during the off season, they are amazing.
These are just some observations after I have tried the vast majority of the tires on the market. Others I have enjoyed: The Bridgestone Potenza RE760 Sport (excellent grip and transitional response, VERY quiet, awesome wear, but quite expensive), the Nitto NT555 (cheap, very good dry grip, long lasting, but sub-par wet grip and getting to be an old design), the Michelin PS2 (amazing tire, but ridiculously expensive to replace), the Yokohama S.Drive (very nice tire, but quite expensive and very old at this point), and the BFG G-Force KDW2 (EXCELLENT dry grip, VERY long lasting, look great, very inexpensive, but extremely noisy. That cool flame tread pattern comes with a cost).
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