Distinguished members.

The Idaho trip went as smooth as possible. Three thousand miles in the Range Rover, without the hickup (but that's not the theme of this post).

Just got done with fixing the Garfield. Everything went the way I described in my previous posts. But I will outline the procedure for the unfortunate ones, that might be in the same situation as I was two weeks ago.

My chain snapped on the right bank (pass side USA) exhaust cam. I took the cam out. Took the tensioner out, and the cam was in my hand. Slipped the new chain (with master link) over the intake sprocket, placed the tensioner in its spot, laid the exhaust cam in the "sweet spot" (the one that doesn't have ANY tension from the valves), and bolted her down. On the front of the cam there is a hole that accepts 10mm alan wrench. Using the wrench, I aligned the flat on the exhaust cam, with the flat on the intake cam. I "cheated" a little. Had a neighbor (carpenter) lining it up with the "torpedo" level (he does that DAILY, and his eyes are used to even the slightest deviation from true level. He was telling me "more, a tad more" and such, and when he was sure they are both level, he slipped the chain over the exhaust cam sprocket, and connected the master link, while I maintained the pressure on the alan wrench.

Once this was done, I performed classic "ZIP Tie" tensioner replacement on the left bank (the instructions are available on this site). I was amazed how easy, and straight forward the ZIP tie method really is. I was cussing at myself for not doing this, WAY earlier (remember, I had second generation tensioners in my car, and I thought that I am in the clear!).

Bottom line,........two mechanics told me that my engine is TOAST after the chain snapped. They wanted 3K USD to do the top end (adamant that it HAS to be done). Many people on this site told me that the engine is gone, also. I could've gotten the replacement engine (used) and labor fpr 1800 USD. And the guy who wanted to sell me the engine (David Snyder, member of this forum), told me to check the compression just for the hell of it. After the chain snapped, I tried to start the engine at least SIX times! It ran for few minutes with the gas half way down, studdering, and coughing. The minute I would let off the gas, it would die. The compression test came back as 120PSI on ALL cylinders, and at that point, I was sure that the pistons DID NOT impact with the valves! Why not? I haven't the faintest idea! But they did not.

Garfield is purring like before, has the new metal tensioners, new chains, and all is good. Finished her at 5PM (and started at 11AM). The set back? Broke one bolt on the cam bearing, and had to go to the store to get the "easy out". Total cost of the repair? 300 USD for the "tensioner kit" (including the valve cover gaskets) off of Ebay.

That's about it. Don't believe what the "mechanics" are telling you. Believe in the members of this forum,....combined, we have WAY more knowledge than any mechanic.

And that's all folks!

 

Awesome! Thanks for taking the time. Wonder what the non-forum Jag owners have to go though,heaps of $$$'s?

 

Superb Danielsand, thanks for sharing.

So glad you got it resolved and for much cheapness too....all good!

Thanks for the kudos you give to this site for help obtained, appreciated

 

Good news Danielsand, don't be too hard on the others, I think you were very lucky, but it always pays to check and be sure.

 

That is wonderful (and fortunate). Nice to hear the RR worked out, as well.

 

Great write-up Danielsand. A very fortunate result.

Graham

 

Thanks guys. I am not trying to be hard on anyone, especially members of this forum that helped me so much to get "under the skin" of my cats.

The widely accepted "gospel" of the X308 is: "tensioner failure + subsequent multiple starts = ruined engine"

And that is NOT the info spread just on this forum. Actually,......if it wasn't for the member of this forum, I would've junked my engine with only 90K.

Of course I am happy that my car is running like nothing happened,......but.
"What happened?" This question will hount me for a while. Since so many people reported that their valves were bent after tensioner failure (or were they? maybe people accepted the "gospel"?), it's safe to assume that there is NOT enough clearance between the pistons in TDC, and the valves. IF that is the FACT,......what the hell happened to my car!? As I said before,......since I didn't recognize the "no idle" (starting with pedal half down, running ROUGH) condition, as the tensioner failure (receipt from PO showing "tensioner replacement"), I suspected number of things,......TPS, CPS, coils, fuel delivery, etc. IF I knew that it was the secondary timing chain, I WOULD'VE NOT attempted to start again! But I did.

After opening the cover, I found the chain bunched under the exhaust sprocket, and that cam was not movable AT ALL. Not with any kind of tool. The only way to free it, was to unbolt the bearings. I observed two of the valves being slightly open. And the engine ran with the LB exhaust cam frozen in place!! So why no impact?

There is NO WAY that the chain snapped (and froze the camshaft) precisely in the moment when all the valves were closed (or two of them partially open, but not fully). Odds for something like that to happen are astronomical. Am I the luckiest SOB on the planet?

Too many questions. Maybe I just have to accept this as a gift, but my mind ALWAYS needs answers (since I was about six years old, and took some crude tools to my grandfather's gold pocket watch, in order to see what makes it tick!).

I would like to hear from the members that had the tensioner failure, AND they (themselves, not the mechanics!) performed the compression test. Dsnyder told me that he purchased an engine (dirt cheap!) from the guy that told him the engine was toast because of the tensioner failure. He bought it for other parts of the engine that were salvageable. Took it home, and tried the compression test just for the hell of it. Replaced the chains and tensioners, and the engine ran FOR YEARS afterwards without any problems (this is the story that saved my engine!). "TWO engines that stopped the cam from turning in the precisely right moment"? IMPOSSIBLE!

So what gives? I'd like to hear from the "certified Jaguar technicians" on this forum. as well.

And IF,.....(and I repeat "IF"), by some wild chance,.....there IS enough clearance between TDC and the open valves, the world needs to know this. Maybe we can save HUNDREDS of cats (and lots of money!), and their owners.

So please chime in.

 

When I was getting my rear shocks installed by the local independent, I mentioned your problem with the broken chain: he said they had done quite a few broken chains at least two had no internal damage --"stroke of luck, but it has happened!"

 

Great news. You should run out and buy a lotto ticket !

 

Congratulations!

Best news ever.

One reason that I tend to have a love/hate relationship with ALL AUTOMOTIVE forums is because of all of the second hand bullshit.

I never ceases to AMAZE me how many guys will read something, NEVER EVER see it first hand, and then preach is as gospel for years and years.

Then the poor saps going on to the forum for the first time (like me with my Jaguar) read all of the crap and start to believe it too.

It takes a while to figure out who on the forum knows what they are talking about and who is full of it. I am starting to learn the in's and out's but I'll tell you, in only 3 months I have owned my car, I have seen VERY bad advice, preached as gospel on at least two areas:

1) Dexcool coolant.

2) Powerflushing an older transmission.

I am not going to go into details, but I have first hand PERSONAL EXPERIENCE MULTIPLE TIMES with BOTH of these, and I KNOW the truth.

I see other guys who think they know everything and are preaching the new guys there BS gospel, and I feel sorry for them.

Then I get sick of automotive forums again, and I wonder why I am still here.

And THEN!

I read a post like this one, and I have faith that ALL is NOT lost.

Now if we can keep the "know it alls" to STFU on things that they never experienced FIRST HAND, the world would be a better place.

Having said that, I am at Disneyland today. Typing this in the business office of the Disneyland Hotel.

You all have a great day!

I am going to the happiest day on earth, and I will be smiling all day, cause I am here, and that Danielsand saved his engine!

Thank you sir for the FIRST HAND advice and for this post.

You made my morning.

Stewart

 

See,.....that's the problem for me. I don't believe in luck (that's why I never bought a Lotto ticket!). In my line of work, ....relaying on luck will get you killed (previous work, not any more, I should say). But those 20+ years in uniform shaped my thinking forever. Only three things I ever relied on,......determination, dedication, and discipline. This, combined with knowledge/education can get you out of the stickiest of the spots. Luck? I don't believe in it.

Some engines "go bad" after tensioner failure, and some don't? Many are saying that if the chain jumps two teeth, the "game is over". Two teeth!? How about all of them, and the cam getting frozen in place, while the engine is running?

Oh hell,.....I don't have enough knowledge to figure this one out. I would like to find a set of factory blueprints for AJ26, and see for myself. There must be something else at play here, besides "luck". Is it possible (for example) that VVT has some influence here (it might, on the intake cam to which it's connected, but not on the exhaust side, once the chain is off). I don't know. It's a puzzle for sure.

 

Dan I'm happy for you - you've been very lucky

The general advice still stands on the timing chain failure and wrecked engines, but sometimes people get 'lucky' like 'you'.....

'Tech's' (and I count myself as one) have generally gone through a 'test' process to determine the extant of damage before unbuttoning the engine.
If I read multiple misfires on the OBD, then I'm pretty sure the car has just informed me of the fact there's head damage.....
Second 'test', in as I've always advised on here, a simple compression test - if you've read thoroughly enough some of my posts going back say 4 or 5 years you'll have seen this advice......I love to hear feedback on faults, I'm not in it for money, praise or ego, I'm in to offer advice because I'm a 'Jaguar Man' - always have been always will be.

Most guys I know don't take things as gospel until they see for themselves, and to do that they carry out the relevant tests for the fault in hand. The threads you post on here are forever, and responsibility for the information within. It's who and how those inquiries are answered. From now on I'll be reconsidering what information I post on here in light on how people can misconstrue/misunderstand/take as law/confuse. Hope you don't mind your 'use' of inverted commas

 

Sean,......I hope you didn't take ANY of my comments personally. Since I joined this forum (a little over a year ago), I had to "weed through" posts that implied the knowledge, and the posts that confirmed the knowledge. I consider YOU, as the most knowledgeable person (when it comes to Jaguar) on this forum.

Your posts helped me a lot! You have "hands on" experience on the subject, and you don't repeat stuff you've heard from somebody. I can only appreciate this. I thank you (personally) for participating in these discussions, and for offering sound advices to everyone.

I will now get my "Garfield" out of the barn, wash it to the "T", and take it for a spin ("to dry the brakes" - good excuse!). I will chalk this experience as a "stroke of luck", and the sign that "someone up there likes me after all"!

After that, I will pour a health shot of single malt, light up a Monte Christo, and enjoy looking at my big cat, sparkling in the California sunshine. Life is good.

 

great to hear this.....as i have learned....i do not even go to my mechanic anymore without diagnosis and feedback info from this forum. So far and although I trust my mechanic, I have a 100% overlap between what I get from the forum and what my mechanic says is the problem.

Went through the same process on my maxi scooter...had compression test done as well...changed tensioner....realigned on the E and I,and got her running.
By the way I also lost a bolt on the cam cover....Aren't those easy outs great?

 

I'm sorry I didn't mean the lotto ticket thing as any kind of insult. I only try to contribute when I have had personal experience with something or I think I can help. You did get the chains with the master links and it worked and I am glad for that. Your cat is happy and that's what's important.

 

Because the loose cam came to rest at the sweet spot where none of the valves are depressed once there was no rotational force applied to the cam. If the cam is not tied to the chain, but is not in the sweet spot, the cam buckets will tend to push the cam into the sweet spot. Path of least resistance.

The realignment of the cam as an adjunct to the ziptie method is a nice touch.

 

+1 on Plums explanation. So it sounds like the chain breaking may result in no damage vs. the chain jumping teeth but not breaking

 

Hey,....what's this "touchy-feely" thing now from some of you? I DID NOT get offended, nor I intended to insult ANYONE with my posts. The first thing that crossed MY mind after all was said and done was: "Maybe I should start playing Lotto!"

But as I said,....I never do. And I did not take your comment in any negative way. I always say: "If I wouldn't have bad luck, I wouldn't have ANY luck at all."

But that's not true either. I've been VERY lucky. Three wars, six cars and three motorcycles totaled (never had a cast on me!), three failed marriages (on a great one now), 58 years old (looking and feeling like 45),.......so yes, I AM a lucky guy. Guess I've heard my late father too many times: "Lotto is a fools tax".

Don't be offended pls, and I thank you for your comment.

 

Perfectly logical explanation Plums. I've observed the cam "insisting" to return to the "sweet spot" on it's own. One actually has to force it in ANY other position (hence the cam locking tools for timing!). But,.......the cam was NOT loose! It was frozen in the position other than the "sweet spot", by the remnants of the chain that were bunched under the sprocket, along with the top "shue" off of the tensioner. Two middle cylinders had their exhaust valves slightly opened.
The cam was SO frozen in place, that the 10mm alan on the breaker bar, was not able to move it.

So it must be luck. Few degrees more, and those two valves would've been fully open..... game over!

Other people said that this was seen before. Not just my engine.

As SeanB said on the forum, and Dsnyder on the phone: CHECK THE COMPRESSION! Compression gauge is CHEAP. Get one for your tool kit right now. I purchased mine in 1989, used it ONCE on my bike at the time. Moved six or seven times since then (few times back and forth accross the Atlantic!), and found the gauge in the box when I needed it most. It saved me a TON of money.

Don't assume. Verify, investigate, plan, and execute.

I took a big cat out yesterday. Drives like a cushy, comfortable, SOB that it is. No issues whatsoever. I loved the Range Rover (nicknamed "The Fat Brit" - no offence to anyone in Britain!) in the mountains of the Continental Divide, but this VDP, IS my true love.

Editing to add: "Realignement of the cams....." This was my theory, and I did not read about it anywhere before. But if you (all of you who did open one or two DOHC engines before - you've seen one - you've seen them all) think about it, ....it's logical. One secondary chain breaks, the timing is WAY OFF. But only on that bank! The other bank is still in time, held by the primary chain. Someone said that VVTs will affect the alignement, but......VVTs are attached to the intake cams, not to the exhaust. Since intake cams are on the top of the banks, there is consideraby more space between the head wall, and the sprockets (VERY small clearance on the bottom of the exhaust cam sprocket). Looks like the chain can not get bunched up under the intake cam sprocket. I don't know if this is by design, or chance, but that's the way it is. IF the chain imobilizes the intake cam, VVTs WILL prevent corect timing without the proper tools. Exhaust cams are controled ONLY by the secondary chains, and nothing else. In this case scenario, primary chain holds both VVTs, and THREE cams in perfect (previous) timing. Realigning the fourth cam is a child's play.

I've read SEVERAL negative comments on this (and other) forum against ziptie method. All I can say is,....whoever came up with that is a genius. VERY logical, very straight forward, and even a "cave man" can do it.

 

Sean,

If everyone who posted technical advice on this forum were as competant as you, we could just print the forum content as an absolutely correct technical service manual, and print it.

I for one appreciate all of your posts and help.

Didn't want you to think that my rant referred to you in any way, shape or form.

In fact, there are MANY EXCELLENT guys here giving EXCELLENT advice. It's just the few odd ***** who screw it up for us NOOBS.

It's frustrating seeing people regurgitate things that they have "read somewhere" and tell the new guys that it is FACT.


And now, back on track.

Congrats again danielsand!

Stewart