Why big increase in brake pad wear?
#1
05-30-2015, 01:16 AM
Why big increase in brake pad wear?
I think something is wrong with my front brakes other than worn pads.
Had Jag @ dealer due to A/C suddenly not blowing cold (cool but not cold) Turned out to be Drier leak & will be fixed early next week when they get parts.
Tech said my front brake pads are down to only 1 mm! Service advisor & I went to shop & looked. I said I don’t have my maintenance folder but, seems this is much too soon for my pads to be this worn & maybe caliper hanging or some other issue? Tech said L&R are both same so unlikely to be caliper issue. I said I’d check my records & probably fix it next wk when have car in for A/C repair.
History:
1-2007: 31,000 mi. F brakes (1st time)
12-2011: 59,100 mi. F brakes (2nd time)
So, I get ~ 30K mi from Jaguar OEM pads. +/- a couple thousand miles depending on if pads replaced @ 3mm, 3.5 or 2.5 etc. No records show how much was left when pads replaced.
7-2014: 74,233 mi. R brakes (1st time)
Jag Dealer checks F pads & says 5 mm remain.
(At the time I thought I was on track to get 30K out of front pads once again)
5-29-205: 80,108 I have only 1 mm remaining on Front pads!
I expected another 10K miles b4 needed Front pads. I used up 4 mm in < 6K miles!
Dealer says pads = 10 mm when new & typically replace when 3 mm.
Something is wrong. Defective Jaguar brake pads? Calipers? Another part?
Had Jag @ dealer due to A/C suddenly not blowing cold (cool but not cold) Turned out to be Drier leak & will be fixed early next week when they get parts.
Tech said my front brake pads are down to only 1 mm! Service advisor & I went to shop & looked. I said I don’t have my maintenance folder but, seems this is much too soon for my pads to be this worn & maybe caliper hanging or some other issue? Tech said L&R are both same so unlikely to be caliper issue. I said I’d check my records & probably fix it next wk when have car in for A/C repair.
History:
1-2007: 31,000 mi. F brakes (1st time)
12-2011: 59,100 mi. F brakes (2nd time)
So, I get ~ 30K mi from Jaguar OEM pads. +/- a couple thousand miles depending on if pads replaced @ 3mm, 3.5 or 2.5 etc. No records show how much was left when pads replaced.
7-2014: 74,233 mi. R brakes (1st time)
Jag Dealer checks F pads & says 5 mm remain.
(At the time I thought I was on track to get 30K out of front pads once again)
5-29-205: 80,108 I have only 1 mm remaining on Front pads!
I expected another 10K miles b4 needed Front pads. I used up 4 mm in < 6K miles!
Dealer says pads = 10 mm when new & typically replace when 3 mm.
Something is wrong. Defective Jaguar brake pads? Calipers? Another part?
#2
05-30-2015, 09:51 AM
Alot of the brake pad gauges are extremely inconsistent between users. The lexus dealership close to me had a issue with brake pad life quotes: the tech's used different style and brand gauges and all had different results. Alot of times sliding calipers don't have even wear. What pad you look at or measure makes a difference. Ideally measurements would be taken from the thinnest pad. I assess pad wear based on the metal pad backing. If your pads are the same thickness or less as the metal backing plate replace them. If your brake pads are thicker then the backing plate they are ok. Pulling the wheel off yields this information within seconds...
Pad life is ultimately determined by how you drive. You can offset wear (or promote it) by selecting different types of brake pads. The jurid (factory) pads i put in my XJR lasted less then 20k miles. The short pad life was a result of my desire to slow down quickly and often. If i had 3mm or 1mm of pad left to the metal plate, replacement should have already taken place.
Pad life is ultimately determined by how you drive. You can offset wear (or promote it) by selecting different types of brake pads. The jurid (factory) pads i put in my XJR lasted less then 20k miles. The short pad life was a result of my desire to slow down quickly and often. If i had 3mm or 1mm of pad left to the metal plate, replacement should have already taken place.
#3
05-30-2015, 12:14 PM
If the wear is even between the two sides, it's very unlikely that there is a fault.
Driving style has a great effect on brake wear. I've had brake pads last 10k miles driving like a fool in the past, and they are half worn on my Passat TDi at 30k with a conservative driving style. The manual transmission helps, as I do some engine braking.
Fact is, you have a big, heavy, automatic car, probably driven spiritedly.
Time to stop overthinking this. If you want to reduce costs, learn to do the pads yourself, or change your driving style.
Driving style has a great effect on brake wear. I've had brake pads last 10k miles driving like a fool in the past, and they are half worn on my Passat TDi at 30k with a conservative driving style. The manual transmission helps, as I do some engine braking.
Fact is, you have a big, heavy, automatic car, probably driven spiritedly.
Time to stop overthinking this. If you want to reduce costs, learn to do the pads yourself, or change your driving style.
#4
05-30-2015, 01:50 PM
If you live in a city you will likely experience faster pad wear. I live in a rural area and my wife drives 65 miles ONE WAY to work. Almost all of that is highway miles so the first time I replaced the pads on her VW New Beetle TDI was at about 160,000 miles. I normally get about 60,000 miles on a set of pads for My Jaguars.
I just replaced the VW TDI pads again last week at 340,000 miles.
Some people also drive with BOTH FEET. "One foot on the brake and one on the gas, hey" (Sammy Hagar).
Even resting your foot on the pedal will apply the brakes slightly (and annoy the crap out of the drivers behind you!!!! Brake lights ON, OFF, ON, OFF).
People that drive 'clutch cars' don't use the left foot for braking.
bob gauff
I just replaced the VW TDI pads again last week at 340,000 miles.
Some people also drive with BOTH FEET. "One foot on the brake and one on the gas, hey" (Sammy Hagar).
Even resting your foot on the pedal will apply the brakes slightly (and annoy the crap out of the drivers behind you!!!! Brake lights ON, OFF, ON, OFF).
People that drive 'clutch cars' don't use the left foot for braking.
bob gauff
#5
05-30-2015, 04:22 PM
Veteran Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Glasgow, Scotland UK
Posts: 47,302
Received 9,007 Likes
on
4,113 Posts
#6
05-30-2015, 07:18 PM
Thanks for the replies.
I have not changed how I drive in 15 years & 80K miles. My concern is I get Front brakes replaced & in 10K miles or sooner I’m down to 3 mm.
If this was the 1st time I was replacing the front brakes I would not have a concern & would assume that my driving style with Jag OEM brakes & the type of driving I do all means ~ 20K or less b4 I need brakes again.
The difference here & the reason for my post is the BIG CHANGE.
30K miles out of front brakes not once but twice. Now only 21K & really (since down to 1 mm) it probably was only ~16, 340 miles till I had reached 3mm!
So, I’m looking for a reason or problem that cause brakes to wear almost twice as fast.
S.A. says can do brake pressure test. I will verify that inner & outer pads are worn equally when I bring it in but I think they were. Since Front brakes were last done by Jaguar, I don’t think they substituted generic cheap pads.
Unless I can learn something here to have them check or test, I will just get them done Tuesday as scheduled when I have the A/C leak repaired & watch the wear carefully to see if getting only 16K miles is my new normal or if I go back to 30K.
I have not changed how I drive in 15 years & 80K miles. My concern is I get Front brakes replaced & in 10K miles or sooner I’m down to 3 mm.
If this was the 1st time I was replacing the front brakes I would not have a concern & would assume that my driving style with Jag OEM brakes & the type of driving I do all means ~ 20K or less b4 I need brakes again.
The difference here & the reason for my post is the BIG CHANGE.
30K miles out of front brakes not once but twice. Now only 21K & really (since down to 1 mm) it probably was only ~16, 340 miles till I had reached 3mm!
So, I’m looking for a reason or problem that cause brakes to wear almost twice as fast.
S.A. says can do brake pressure test. I will verify that inner & outer pads are worn equally when I bring it in but I think they were. Since Front brakes were last done by Jaguar, I don’t think they substituted generic cheap pads.
Unless I can learn something here to have them check or test, I will just get them done Tuesday as scheduled when I have the A/C leak repaired & watch the wear carefully to see if getting only 16K miles is my new normal or if I go back to 30K.
#7
05-30-2015, 10:16 PM
Are you relying on someone to tell you how much pad is remaining or did you put your face down near the calipers to look???
I had one customer with a 2002 XKR that took her car to the dealer and had 4 sets of brake pads in less than 50,000 miles. (she showed me the shoebox full of receipts and the 4 times brake pad replacement)
She told me that the dealer said they needed replacing AGAIN!!!
I looked at the pads and they were hardly worn at all!!!!
I told her to STOP going to that dealer. (it was the Jaguar dealer in Plano Texas that lost their franchise.......... I wonder why????)
Every time she brings her car to my shop she begs me to check the brakes. I always tell her that they are FINE and there is NO CHANGE in the 3,000 miles since the last time!!!!
She is SCARED TO DEATH of the pads failing.
My advise would be to judge for yourself if you think your car is being OVER REPAIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bob gauff
I had one customer with a 2002 XKR that took her car to the dealer and had 4 sets of brake pads in less than 50,000 miles. (she showed me the shoebox full of receipts and the 4 times brake pad replacement)
She told me that the dealer said they needed replacing AGAIN!!!
I looked at the pads and they were hardly worn at all!!!!
I told her to STOP going to that dealer. (it was the Jaguar dealer in Plano Texas that lost their franchise.......... I wonder why????)
Every time she brings her car to my shop she begs me to check the brakes. I always tell her that they are FINE and there is NO CHANGE in the 3,000 miles since the last time!!!!
She is SCARED TO DEATH of the pads failing.
My advise would be to judge for yourself if you think your car is being OVER REPAIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bob gauff
Trending Topics
#8
05-30-2015, 10:46 PM
As mentioned in 1st post, after mechanic called & told S.A. about the brakes, Service advisor (Who was a mechanic for many years & I know him well) & I went to shop & looked. I didn’t measure but they looked thinner than backing plate. If it was a scam, I think they would have just said your brakes need replacement.
Thanks, I’m glad that crooked dealer went out of business!
BTW:
Plano New & Used Jaguar Dealership Serving Plano, Dallas, Ft Worth & DFW - Jaguar Plano - Park Place
Did they later re-open under new management?
Found this from 2009:
Plano Jaguar dealership accused of warranty and incentive fraud - Southeast Texas RecordSoutheast Texas Record
#9
05-31-2015, 08:37 AM
#10
05-31-2015, 09:13 AM
I think something is wrong with my front brakes other than worn pads.
Had Jag @ dealer due to A/C suddenly not blowing cold (cool but not cold) Turned out to be Drier leak & will be fixed early next week when they get parts.
Tech said my front brake pads are down to only 1 mm! Service advisor & I went to shop & looked. I said I don’t have my maintenance folder but, seems this is much too soon for my pads to be this worn & maybe caliper hanging or some other issue? Tech said L&R are both same so unlikely to be caliper issue. I said I’d check my records & probably fix it next wk when have car in for A/C repair.
History:
1-2007: 31,000 mi. F brakes (1st time)
12-2011: 59,100 mi. F brakes (2nd time)
So, I get ~ 30K mi from Jaguar OEM pads. +/- a couple thousand miles depending on if pads replaced @ 3mm, 3.5 or 2.5 etc. No records show how much was left when pads replaced.
7-2014: 74,233 mi. R brakes (1st time)
Jag Dealer checks F pads & says 5 mm remain.
(At the time I thought I was on track to get 30K out of front pads once again)
5-29-205: 80,108 I have only 1 mm remaining on Front pads!
I expected another 10K miles b4 needed Front pads. I used up 4 mm in < 6K miles!
Dealer says pads = 10 mm when new & typically replace when 3 mm.
Something is wrong. Defective Jaguar brake pads? Calipers? Another part?
Had Jag @ dealer due to A/C suddenly not blowing cold (cool but not cold) Turned out to be Drier leak & will be fixed early next week when they get parts.
Tech said my front brake pads are down to only 1 mm! Service advisor & I went to shop & looked. I said I don’t have my maintenance folder but, seems this is much too soon for my pads to be this worn & maybe caliper hanging or some other issue? Tech said L&R are both same so unlikely to be caliper issue. I said I’d check my records & probably fix it next wk when have car in for A/C repair.
History:
1-2007: 31,000 mi. F brakes (1st time)
12-2011: 59,100 mi. F brakes (2nd time)
So, I get ~ 30K mi from Jaguar OEM pads. +/- a couple thousand miles depending on if pads replaced @ 3mm, 3.5 or 2.5 etc. No records show how much was left when pads replaced.
7-2014: 74,233 mi. R brakes (1st time)
Jag Dealer checks F pads & says 5 mm remain.
(At the time I thought I was on track to get 30K out of front pads once again)
5-29-205: 80,108 I have only 1 mm remaining on Front pads!
I expected another 10K miles b4 needed Front pads. I used up 4 mm in < 6K miles!
Dealer says pads = 10 mm when new & typically replace when 3 mm.
Something is wrong. Defective Jaguar brake pads? Calipers? Another part?
I say it oft, but most don't listen. Premature brake pad wear is contributed to caliper piston seals. A caliper seal replacement is the most overlooked, and most needful in any brake job done right. The purpose of this seal between the piston and caliper is to retract the piston, and sealing is the secondary purpose. The rubber is crushed and stretched every time you apply the brake pedal. There comes a point where it looses it's shape and no longer retracts the piston back rewards into the bore. Which means there is pressure against the pads to rotor at all times. Also, you should never collapse a piston back into it's bore without breaking the bleeder screw loose and allowing the contaminated fluid escape, especially if you have ABS. The contaminated fluid can cause ABS failure. Brake fluid is glycerin based and hygroscopic, (which means it takes on water) and should be replaced every two years by the maintenance schedule, and by reason of the vehicle being in the atmosphere, it takes on water. This is what causes rust in the caliper bore behind the piston. Never use brake fluid from a can that has been opened and the seal broken for some time. When you do a brake job properly, you rebuild the caliper, clean and lube the pins, replace the associated springs and retainers, replace any and all rubber parts as well as pads and rotor maintenance. It will include new fluid and a bleed. If you simply smash the piston back into the bore and slap pads in you have not done a brake job.
Last edited by Box; 05-31-2015 at 09:22 AM. Reason: typo
The following users liked this post:
xjay8 (06-02-2015)
#11
05-31-2015, 07:01 PM
Thanks David,
I Doubt Jaguar or most mechanics rebuild the calipers during most brake jobs. Wouldn’t that increase the cost by quite a bit? Years ago I had that done (to a company car) after repeated premature wear on just one side. Wouldn’t it be unusual for both L & R front brake pads to wear twice as fast due to hanging caliper on both sides? In any event, I will ask about caliper seal replacement when I go in Tuesday. (I’m guessing they would only replace the caliper seal as part of an expensive caliper rebuild.) I may have the brake fluid flushed & replaced since I don’t think they do that as part of routine Jag brake job (pads & rotors). Years ago, I was told by a mechanic that here in DRY Phoenix, AZ, brake fluid does not absorb water as it does virtually everywhere else so, changing the brake fluid every 2 years is a waste of money. I know the Jag manual says every 2 yrs. Regardless of mileage.
Bob,
I decided to pull a wheel (LF) & take photos of the brake pad. Once again I can clearly see the pad is thiner than the backing plate (Although I do not know if it is really @ 1 mm, It surely needs replacement.) Looking through the “window” to see the inner pads, I’m not sure wtf I’m looking at. I s/b looking edge on @ the rotor, pad & backing plate. I think the black grime/dirt is throwing me off.
Here are the photos:
I Doubt Jaguar or most mechanics rebuild the calipers during most brake jobs. Wouldn’t that increase the cost by quite a bit? Years ago I had that done (to a company car) after repeated premature wear on just one side. Wouldn’t it be unusual for both L & R front brake pads to wear twice as fast due to hanging caliper on both sides? In any event, I will ask about caliper seal replacement when I go in Tuesday. (I’m guessing they would only replace the caliper seal as part of an expensive caliper rebuild.) I may have the brake fluid flushed & replaced since I don’t think they do that as part of routine Jag brake job (pads & rotors). Years ago, I was told by a mechanic that here in DRY Phoenix, AZ, brake fluid does not absorb water as it does virtually everywhere else so, changing the brake fluid every 2 years is a waste of money. I know the Jag manual says every 2 yrs. Regardless of mileage.
Bob,
I decided to pull a wheel (LF) & take photos of the brake pad. Once again I can clearly see the pad is thiner than the backing plate (Although I do not know if it is really @ 1 mm, It surely needs replacement.) Looking through the “window” to see the inner pads, I’m not sure wtf I’m looking at. I s/b looking edge on @ the rotor, pad & backing plate. I think the black grime/dirt is throwing me off.
Here are the photos:
#12
06-01-2015, 05:58 AM
Thanks David,
I Doubt Jaguar or most mechanics rebuild the calipers during most brake jobs. Wouldn’t that increase the cost by quite a bit? Years ago I had that done (to a company car) after repeated premature wear on just one side. Wouldn’t it be unusual for both L & R front brake pads to wear twice as fast due to hanging caliper on both sides? In any event, I will ask about caliper seal replacement when I go in Tuesday. (I’m guessing they would only replace the caliper seal as part of an expensive caliper rebuild.) I may have the brake fluid flushed & replaced since I don’t think they do that as part of routine Jag brake job (pads & rotors). Years ago, I was told by a mechanic that here in DRY Phoenix, AZ, brake fluid does not absorb water as it does virtually everywhere else so, changing the brake fluid every 2 years is a waste of money. I know the Jag manual says every 2 yrs. Regardless of mileage.
I Doubt Jaguar or most mechanics rebuild the calipers during most brake jobs. Wouldn’t that increase the cost by quite a bit? Years ago I had that done (to a company car) after repeated premature wear on just one side. Wouldn’t it be unusual for both L & R front brake pads to wear twice as fast due to hanging caliper on both sides? In any event, I will ask about caliper seal replacement when I go in Tuesday. (I’m guessing they would only replace the caliper seal as part of an expensive caliper rebuild.) I may have the brake fluid flushed & replaced since I don’t think they do that as part of routine Jag brake job (pads & rotors). Years ago, I was told by a mechanic that here in DRY Phoenix, AZ, brake fluid does not absorb water as it does virtually everywhere else so, changing the brake fluid every 2 years is a waste of money. I know the Jag manual says every 2 yrs. Regardless of mileage.
I invite you to examine a seal from a rebuild pack and one taken out of a caliper with a few years service, and what you will find is that new one, is rather hard, sharp edged and not very resilient at all, and then the one taken out of the caliper, will be stretched, rubbery and much larger in diameter than the new one. It will feel like a rubber band. Why is that? Because of the tremendous pressures, heat and wear upon this one single critical moving part that retracts the piston. This should be part of every complete brake job.
I invite you to read the following... http://www.ucx.com/documents/squareseal.pdf
Last edited by Box; 06-01-2015 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Added URL
The following users liked this post:
xjay8 (06-02-2015)
#13
06-01-2015, 09:06 PM
Iconoclast
I would say that it is time for pad replacement.
You can go a little farther but there is no point in tempting fate.
bob gauff
I would say that it is time for pad replacement.
You can go a little farther but there is no point in tempting fate.
bob gauff
#14
06-02-2015, 02:26 AM
Veteran Member
Iconoclast
I would say that it is time for pad replacement.
You can go a little farther but there is no point in tempting fate.
bob gauff
I would say that it is time for pad replacement.
You can go a little farther but there is no point in tempting fate.
bob gauff
#15
06-02-2015, 11:06 PM
My concern is that rather than Front pads lasting 30K miles as they have done with this car & me as sole driver 2x b4, now last ~ 50% & not sure why.
Brakes are done although car still in shop awaiting A/C part (drier) I had them flush/replace brake fluid. Afterwards, they told me old brake fluid was somewhat clumpy so that maybe it contributed to premature front pad wear. (I’m not at all sure that could be the case but, brake fluid needed changing anyway.) (Looking at brake fluid in the reservoir, it had looked clean & translucent to me.) He assured me that Jaguar Service techs clean & lubricate calipers very thoroughly & than mine are fine, better than new (Whatever THAT means) I don’t want to rebuild/replace calipers ($$$$) unless I know they are the problem & it does not look as if that is so. I will ck pad thickness when I rotate tires probably 12-2015.
@ Box, thanks for the interesting article & your comments. While it may well be a good idea to replace or at least rebuild brake calipers every time you change the pads, the source you cite is a company that sells calipers so, not exactly unbiased
Maybe some others that read this thread but have not commented can weigh in on replacing or rebuilding calipers rather than just cleaning & lubricating them every time pads are changed. I suspect that those few who may do this, do the brake job themselves rather than pay mechanics to do it for them as I do. I assume if there are tangible signs of a problem with the calipers such as one side wearing faster or inner vs. outer wear not even, or when examining calipers seeing other issue then a rebuild or replacement is done. But, if everything seems fine except the pads wear much faster than b4 (& are the same OEM Jaguar pads) then how many would just replace or rebuild calipers?
Brakes are done although car still in shop awaiting A/C part (drier) I had them flush/replace brake fluid. Afterwards, they told me old brake fluid was somewhat clumpy so that maybe it contributed to premature front pad wear. (I’m not at all sure that could be the case but, brake fluid needed changing anyway.) (Looking at brake fluid in the reservoir, it had looked clean & translucent to me.) He assured me that Jaguar Service techs clean & lubricate calipers very thoroughly & than mine are fine, better than new (Whatever THAT means) I don’t want to rebuild/replace calipers ($$$$) unless I know they are the problem & it does not look as if that is so. I will ck pad thickness when I rotate tires probably 12-2015.
@ Box, thanks for the interesting article & your comments. While it may well be a good idea to replace or at least rebuild brake calipers every time you change the pads, the source you cite is a company that sells calipers so, not exactly unbiased
Maybe some others that read this thread but have not commented can weigh in on replacing or rebuilding calipers rather than just cleaning & lubricating them every time pads are changed. I suspect that those few who may do this, do the brake job themselves rather than pay mechanics to do it for them as I do. I assume if there are tangible signs of a problem with the calipers such as one side wearing faster or inner vs. outer wear not even, or when examining calipers seeing other issue then a rebuild or replacement is done. But, if everything seems fine except the pads wear much faster than b4 (& are the same OEM Jaguar pads) then how many would just replace or rebuild calipers?
#16
06-03-2015, 05:17 AM
My concern is that rather than Front pads lasting 30K miles as they have done with this car & me as sole driver 2x b4, now last ~ 50% & not sure why.
Brakes are done although car still in shop awaiting A/C part (drier) I had them flush/replace brake fluid. Afterwards, they told me old brake fluid was somewhat clumpy so that maybe it contributed to premature front pad wear. (I’m not at all sure that could be the case but, brake fluid needed changing anyway.) (Looking at brake fluid in the reservoir, it had looked clean & translucent to me.) He assured me that Jaguar Service techs clean & lubricate calipers very thoroughly & than mine are fine, better than new (Whatever THAT means) I don’t want to rebuild/replace calipers ($$$$) unless I know they are the problem & it does not look as if that is so. I will ck pad thickness when I rotate tires probably 12-2015.
@ Box, thanks for the interesting article & your comments. While it may well be a good idea to replace or at least rebuild brake calipers every time you change the pads, the source you cite is a company that sells calipers so, not exactly unbiased
Maybe some others that read this thread but have not commented can weigh in on replacing or rebuilding calipers rather than just cleaning & lubricating them every time pads are changed. I suspect that those few who may do this, do the brake job themselves rather than pay mechanics to do it for them as I do. I assume if there are tangible signs of a problem with the calipers such as one side wearing faster or inner vs. outer wear not even, or when examining calipers seeing other issue then a rebuild or replacement is done. But, if everything seems fine except the pads wear much faster than b4 (& are the same OEM Jaguar pads) then how many would just replace or rebuild calipers?
Brakes are done although car still in shop awaiting A/C part (drier) I had them flush/replace brake fluid. Afterwards, they told me old brake fluid was somewhat clumpy so that maybe it contributed to premature front pad wear. (I’m not at all sure that could be the case but, brake fluid needed changing anyway.) (Looking at brake fluid in the reservoir, it had looked clean & translucent to me.) He assured me that Jaguar Service techs clean & lubricate calipers very thoroughly & than mine are fine, better than new (Whatever THAT means) I don’t want to rebuild/replace calipers ($$$$) unless I know they are the problem & it does not look as if that is so. I will ck pad thickness when I rotate tires probably 12-2015.
@ Box, thanks for the interesting article & your comments. While it may well be a good idea to replace or at least rebuild brake calipers every time you change the pads, the source you cite is a company that sells calipers so, not exactly unbiased
Maybe some others that read this thread but have not commented can weigh in on replacing or rebuilding calipers rather than just cleaning & lubricating them every time pads are changed. I suspect that those few who may do this, do the brake job themselves rather than pay mechanics to do it for them as I do. I assume if there are tangible signs of a problem with the calipers such as one side wearing faster or inner vs. outer wear not even, or when examining calipers seeing other issue then a rebuild or replacement is done. But, if everything seems fine except the pads wear much faster than b4 (& are the same OEM Jaguar pads) then how many would just replace or rebuild calipers?
Last edited by Box; 06-03-2015 at 10:55 AM.
#17
06-03-2015, 05:55 PM
David,
I was not accusing YOU of trying to sell me anything. I appreciate your comments & the info you provided & thanked you for it. You’re right, UCX (sells calipers) did not do this study but, just listed the results & cited 7-1997 Brake & Front End Magazine. I don’t know who did the study. However, sometimes people/companies selectively report studies & other info that benefits them. Study states 62% shorter pad life when pads only replaced vs, replacing pads + calipers. Then the rest of the article (which answers the “WHY?”) is , I assume written by UCX.
You may well be right although I question the 62% shorter life. Will virtually every car experience more than double the pad life if calipers are replaced? If so, since the vast majority of people do NOT do this & most mechanics do not recommend this, I would expect most people to have drastically shorter pad life on the 2nd brake job vs. The 1st. Since the 1st starts with new calipers, new everything since car is new.
Why don’t we hear about people getting 50K b4 need pads & then they merely replace pads & turn rotors & then in 25K miles need pads once again?
Or get 30k & next time only 15k or worse 20k & then 10k?
In no way is Jaguar Service either fast or cheap.
Lets hear from other mechanics. Do you always recommend replacing calipers every time pads worn down even if worn evenly & no evidence of any caliper issue? Or do you just clean & lubricate calipers a part of std., pad only brake job?
What is the cost/benefit analysis? Maybe that holds the key to why it is rarely recommended. Probably very dependent on which car, more for Jaguars, BMWs, Porsches, etc.
Rip-Off #1: Buying calipers when you don’t need them
Auto Repair Rip Offs: Avoid Brake Service Costs | The Family Handyman
"Most brake calipers do not need to be rebuilt or replaced the first time the brakes are relined. But after 75,000 miles, or seven to 10 years of service, the calipers may be reaching the end of the road. As the rubber seals age and harden, the risk of sticking and leaking goes up.
Caliper replacement is required if a caliper is leaking brake fluid, if a piston is sticking, or the caliper is worn or damaged."
FAQ: Why do I need new brake calipers? - Safe BrakingSafe Braking
“I would only recommend changing a caliper when there is some other problem involved not as general maintenance. Only if you have a brake pull or the pistons in a caliper is seized and or leaking. “
Source(s):
ASE master tech
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...3152032AAZyFhK
I searched quite a bit & other than you & the link you provided I cannot find anything else recommending replacing calipers with every pad change.
For my Jag, I got 30K from factory new brakes, I also got 30K from 1st front brake job; pads & rotor. Only with my current 3rd brake job did I get much less pad life. I pick up car today. Tech claims he cleaned & lubed calipers & they are better than new. We’ll see.
I was not accusing YOU of trying to sell me anything. I appreciate your comments & the info you provided & thanked you for it. You’re right, UCX (sells calipers) did not do this study but, just listed the results & cited 7-1997 Brake & Front End Magazine. I don’t know who did the study. However, sometimes people/companies selectively report studies & other info that benefits them. Study states 62% shorter pad life when pads only replaced vs, replacing pads + calipers. Then the rest of the article (which answers the “WHY?”) is , I assume written by UCX.
You may well be right although I question the 62% shorter life. Will virtually every car experience more than double the pad life if calipers are replaced? If so, since the vast majority of people do NOT do this & most mechanics do not recommend this, I would expect most people to have drastically shorter pad life on the 2nd brake job vs. The 1st. Since the 1st starts with new calipers, new everything since car is new.
Why don’t we hear about people getting 50K b4 need pads & then they merely replace pads & turn rotors & then in 25K miles need pads once again?
Or get 30k & next time only 15k or worse 20k & then 10k?
In no way is Jaguar Service either fast or cheap.
Lets hear from other mechanics. Do you always recommend replacing calipers every time pads worn down even if worn evenly & no evidence of any caliper issue? Or do you just clean & lubricate calipers a part of std., pad only brake job?
What is the cost/benefit analysis? Maybe that holds the key to why it is rarely recommended. Probably very dependent on which car, more for Jaguars, BMWs, Porsches, etc.
Rip-Off #1: Buying calipers when you don’t need them
Auto Repair Rip Offs: Avoid Brake Service Costs | The Family Handyman
"Most brake calipers do not need to be rebuilt or replaced the first time the brakes are relined. But after 75,000 miles, or seven to 10 years of service, the calipers may be reaching the end of the road. As the rubber seals age and harden, the risk of sticking and leaking goes up.
Caliper replacement is required if a caliper is leaking brake fluid, if a piston is sticking, or the caliper is worn or damaged."
FAQ: Why do I need new brake calipers? - Safe BrakingSafe Braking
“I would only recommend changing a caliper when there is some other problem involved not as general maintenance. Only if you have a brake pull or the pistons in a caliper is seized and or leaking. “
Source(s):
ASE master tech
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...3152032AAZyFhK
I searched quite a bit & other than you & the link you provided I cannot find anything else recommending replacing calipers with every pad change.
For my Jag, I got 30K from factory new brakes, I also got 30K from 1st front brake job; pads & rotor. Only with my current 3rd brake job did I get much less pad life. I pick up car today. Tech claims he cleaned & lubed calipers & they are better than new. We’ll see.
#18
06-04-2015, 05:16 AM
David,
I was not accusing YOU of trying to sell me anything. I appreciate your comments & the info you provided & thanked you for it. You’re right, UCX (sells calipers) did not do this study but, just listed the results & cited 7-1997 Brake & Front End Magazine. I don’t know who did the study. However, sometimes people/companies selectively report studies & other info that benefits them. Study states 62% shorter pad life when pads only replaced vs, replacing pads + calipers. Then the rest of the article (which answers the “WHY?”) is , I assume written by UCX.
You may well be right although I question the 62% shorter life. Will virtually every car experience more than double the pad life if calipers are replaced? If so, since the vast majority of people do NOT do this & most mechanics do not recommend this, I would expect most people to have drastically shorter pad life on the 2nd brake job vs. The 1st. Since the 1st starts with new calipers, new everything since car is new.
Why don’t we hear about people getting 50K b4 need pads & then they merely replace pads & turn rotors & then in 25K miles need pads once again?
Or get 30k & next time only 15k or worse 20k & then 10k?
In no way is Jaguar Service either fast or cheap.
Lets hear from other mechanics. Do you always recommend replacing calipers every time pads worn down even if worn evenly & no evidence of any caliper issue? Or do you just clean & lubricate calipers a part of std., pad only brake job?
What is the cost/benefit analysis? Maybe that holds the key to why it is rarely recommended. Probably very dependent on which car, more for Jaguars, BMWs, Porsches, etc.
Rip-Off #1: Buying calipers when you don’t need them
Auto Repair Rip Offs: Avoid Brake Service Costs | The Family Handyman
"Most brake calipers do not need to be rebuilt or replaced the first time the brakes are relined. But after 75,000 miles, or seven to 10 years of service, the calipers may be reaching the end of the road. As the rubber seals age and harden, the risk of sticking and leaking goes up.
Caliper replacement is required if a caliper is leaking brake fluid, if a piston is sticking, or the caliper is worn or damaged."
FAQ: Why do I need new brake calipers? - Safe BrakingSafe Braking
“I would only recommend changing a caliper when there is some other problem involved not as general maintenance. Only if you have a brake pull or the pistons in a caliper is seized and or leaking. “
Source(s):
ASE master tech
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...3152032AAZyFhK
I searched quite a bit & other than you & the link you provided I cannot find anything else recommending replacing calipers with every pad change.
For my Jag, I got 30K from factory new brakes, I also got 30K from 1st front brake job; pads & rotor. Only with my current 3rd brake job did I get much less pad life. I pick up car today. Tech claims he cleaned & lubed calipers & they are better than new. We’ll see.
I was not accusing YOU of trying to sell me anything. I appreciate your comments & the info you provided & thanked you for it. You’re right, UCX (sells calipers) did not do this study but, just listed the results & cited 7-1997 Brake & Front End Magazine. I don’t know who did the study. However, sometimes people/companies selectively report studies & other info that benefits them. Study states 62% shorter pad life when pads only replaced vs, replacing pads + calipers. Then the rest of the article (which answers the “WHY?”) is , I assume written by UCX.
You may well be right although I question the 62% shorter life. Will virtually every car experience more than double the pad life if calipers are replaced? If so, since the vast majority of people do NOT do this & most mechanics do not recommend this, I would expect most people to have drastically shorter pad life on the 2nd brake job vs. The 1st. Since the 1st starts with new calipers, new everything since car is new.
Why don’t we hear about people getting 50K b4 need pads & then they merely replace pads & turn rotors & then in 25K miles need pads once again?
Or get 30k & next time only 15k or worse 20k & then 10k?
In no way is Jaguar Service either fast or cheap.
Lets hear from other mechanics. Do you always recommend replacing calipers every time pads worn down even if worn evenly & no evidence of any caliper issue? Or do you just clean & lubricate calipers a part of std., pad only brake job?
What is the cost/benefit analysis? Maybe that holds the key to why it is rarely recommended. Probably very dependent on which car, more for Jaguars, BMWs, Porsches, etc.
Rip-Off #1: Buying calipers when you don’t need them
Auto Repair Rip Offs: Avoid Brake Service Costs | The Family Handyman
"Most brake calipers do not need to be rebuilt or replaced the first time the brakes are relined. But after 75,000 miles, or seven to 10 years of service, the calipers may be reaching the end of the road. As the rubber seals age and harden, the risk of sticking and leaking goes up.
Caliper replacement is required if a caliper is leaking brake fluid, if a piston is sticking, or the caliper is worn or damaged."
FAQ: Why do I need new brake calipers? - Safe BrakingSafe Braking
“I would only recommend changing a caliper when there is some other problem involved not as general maintenance. Only if you have a brake pull or the pistons in a caliper is seized and or leaking. “
Source(s):
ASE master tech
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...3152032AAZyFhK
I searched quite a bit & other than you & the link you provided I cannot find anything else recommending replacing calipers with every pad change.
For my Jag, I got 30K from factory new brakes, I also got 30K from 1st front brake job; pads & rotor. Only with my current 3rd brake job did I get much less pad life. I pick up car today. Tech claims he cleaned & lubed calipers & they are better than new. We’ll see.
I'm not new to the industry, and was in the Parts and Service Division of a major auto manufacturer for well over a decade, been in the industry since the 70's and trained technicians for Ford, Toyota, Subaru, Chrysler, GM and numerous independent owners.
I can lead a horse to water, but sadly, can't make it drink. What amazes me, really, is you ask what is causing your problem, I tell you, and then you want to argue the issue. All I can say at this point is good luck..
Last edited by Box; 06-04-2015 at 05:59 PM.
#19
06-08-2015, 02:11 AM
Hi David,
I think we are basically repeating ourselves.
However, the study YOU cited & linked states “Caliper Replacement” (I.E. Complete brake job.)
It does NOT talk abut rebuilding the calipers or replacing the seal. However, you have discussed replacing the seal. So, you can re-read all my previous comments re replacing the calipers as also meaning rebuilding the calipers.
Most mechanics do NOT recommend this unless they see a specific problem. Jaguar does NOT recommend this. No mechanic has ever recommended this to me for many decades of driving many cars. (Except once when calipers were hanging & one side wore much faster than the other.)
Yes, I asked the forum a question about why my pads wore 2x as fast.
No, you did NOT tell me what is causing my problem. You guessed. Perhaps an educated guess but, Jaguar service disagrees with you. In no way, shape or form have you proven you are correct & that every single brake job should include replacing the seal/rebuilding the calipers. Repeating your “horse to water” analogy does not make you correct.
Too bad no other Forum members are commenting on whether or not they rebuild their calipers or replace their caliper seals every single time they replace pads.
I think we are basically repeating ourselves.
However, the study YOU cited & linked states “Caliper Replacement” (I.E. Complete brake job.)
It does NOT talk abut rebuilding the calipers or replacing the seal. However, you have discussed replacing the seal. So, you can re-read all my previous comments re replacing the calipers as also meaning rebuilding the calipers.
Most mechanics do NOT recommend this unless they see a specific problem. Jaguar does NOT recommend this. No mechanic has ever recommended this to me for many decades of driving many cars. (Except once when calipers were hanging & one side wore much faster than the other.)
Yes, I asked the forum a question about why my pads wore 2x as fast.
No, you did NOT tell me what is causing my problem. You guessed. Perhaps an educated guess but, Jaguar service disagrees with you. In no way, shape or form have you proven you are correct & that every single brake job should include replacing the seal/rebuilding the calipers. Repeating your “horse to water” analogy does not make you correct.
Too bad no other Forum members are commenting on whether or not they rebuild their calipers or replace their caliper seals every single time they replace pads.
#20
06-08-2015, 06:56 AM
Hi David,
I think we are basically repeating ourselves.
However, the study YOU cited & linked states “Caliper Replacement” (I.E. Complete brake job.)
It does NOT talk abut rebuilding the calipers or replacing the seal. However, you have discussed replacing the seal. So, you can re-read all my previous comments re replacing the calipers as also meaning rebuilding the calipers.
Most mechanics do NOT recommend this unless they see a specific problem. Jaguar does NOT recommend this. No mechanic has ever recommended this to me for many decades of driving many cars. (Except once when calipers were hanging & one side wore much faster than the other.)
Yes, I asked the forum a question about why my pads wore 2x as fast.
No, you did NOT tell me what is causing my problem. You guessed. Perhaps an educated guess but, Jaguar service disagrees with you. In no way, shape or form have you proven you are correct & that every single brake job should include replacing the seal/rebuilding the calipers. Repeating your “horse to water” analogy does not make you correct.
Too bad no other Forum members are commenting on whether or not they rebuild their calipers or replace their caliper seals every single time they replace pads.
I think we are basically repeating ourselves.
However, the study YOU cited & linked states “Caliper Replacement” (I.E. Complete brake job.)
It does NOT talk abut rebuilding the calipers or replacing the seal. However, you have discussed replacing the seal. So, you can re-read all my previous comments re replacing the calipers as also meaning rebuilding the calipers.
Most mechanics do NOT recommend this unless they see a specific problem. Jaguar does NOT recommend this. No mechanic has ever recommended this to me for many decades of driving many cars. (Except once when calipers were hanging & one side wore much faster than the other.)
Yes, I asked the forum a question about why my pads wore 2x as fast.
No, you did NOT tell me what is causing my problem. You guessed. Perhaps an educated guess but, Jaguar service disagrees with you. In no way, shape or form have you proven you are correct & that every single brake job should include replacing the seal/rebuilding the calipers. Repeating your “horse to water” analogy does not make you correct.
Too bad no other Forum members are commenting on whether or not they rebuild their calipers or replace their caliper seals every single time they replace pads.
Read in what you want, but my comment to you from the first was, and I quote, "A caliper seal replacement is the most overlooked, and most needful in any brake job done right. The purpose of this seal between the piston and caliper is to retract the piston, and sealing is the secondary purpose."
In about 2 years you'll remember this thread. Have a great day.
Last edited by Box; 06-08-2015 at 07:15 AM.