Coolant Problem
#1
11-03-2015, 09:55 AM
Coolant Problem
Ok, so ive recently took the head off my S3 4.2. Here's the thread if you're interested https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...gutted-150650/
All was going well until i checked the coolant level yesterday morning and it had dropped. I had to put about 1.5 litres in it.
As i see it, now that the head and gasket have been done, the leak can only be from the water pump, heater matrix or hoses. Correct ?
If its the water pump i assume this will either leaks or it doesnt and id be able to see it leaking ?
Heater matrix - this would leak into the footwell i assume ?
Anyone got any ideas ?
All was going well until i checked the coolant level yesterday morning and it had dropped. I had to put about 1.5 litres in it.
As i see it, now that the head and gasket have been done, the leak can only be from the water pump, heater matrix or hoses. Correct ?
If its the water pump i assume this will either leaks or it doesnt and id be able to see it leaking ?
Heater matrix - this would leak into the footwell i assume ?
Anyone got any ideas ?
#2
11-03-2015, 11:23 AM
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What was 'done' to the cylinder head? Resurfaced, or....?
With the head off were any engine block cracks observed between the cylinders?
If its the water pump i assume this will either leaks or it doesnt and id be able to see it leaking ?
No, sometimes they leak on a come-n-go basis....but you be able to easily see evidence of the leak....either in actual coolant or stains.
Heater matrix - this would leak into the footwell i assume ?
You'd think so, although the case can hold quite a bit of liquid. You'd certainly smell a heater matrix leak, though....and likely have windshield fogging
Before doing anything, go 'round and check all hose clamps ! Might as well begin with something simple and free before assuming anything complex and expensive
Cheers
DD
#3
11-03-2015, 11:32 AM
Cheers Doug,
The head was cleaned and pressure tested. The bloke checked it for being warped and said it was nice and straight so didnt need any skimming or machine work.
We had a good look at the block and that looked fine too. The head gasket itself had seen better days though but there were no obvious leaks / failures to be honest.
Mmm it doesnt smell in the cabin now you come to mention it so maybe its not the heater matrix ?
I'm off to the garage on my way home to do a quick test to double check that oil isnt mixing with coolant - they've got a neat little piece of kit that has some fancy blue liquid in that turns green if it detects hydrocarbons or something like that but i cant remember what its called.
I'll keep things posted on here and my fingers crossed !
The head was cleaned and pressure tested. The bloke checked it for being warped and said it was nice and straight so didnt need any skimming or machine work.
We had a good look at the block and that looked fine too. The head gasket itself had seen better days though but there were no obvious leaks / failures to be honest.
Mmm it doesnt smell in the cabin now you come to mention it so maybe its not the heater matrix ?
I'm off to the garage on my way home to do a quick test to double check that oil isnt mixing with coolant - they've got a neat little piece of kit that has some fancy blue liquid in that turns green if it detects hydrocarbons or something like that but i cant remember what its called.
I'll keep things posted on here and my fingers crossed !
#4
11-03-2015, 12:39 PM
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Here in the 'States they're called a "Block Test Kit".
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...006_0361073538
Cheers
DD
#5
11-03-2015, 01:32 PM
Yep, that's the piece of kit Doug
Ok, head leak test thing done and the blue liquid turned green so not good
To be fair when I took the head to the machine shop said it was fine but it had "seen some action" and wouldn't take another skim.
Soooo the hunt is on for a replacement head. I'm not as gutted as I thought I'd be to be honest - means I get to do it all again eh !
Ok, head leak test thing done and the blue liquid turned green so not good
To be fair when I took the head to the machine shop said it was fine but it had "seen some action" and wouldn't take another skim.
Soooo the hunt is on for a replacement head. I'm not as gutted as I thought I'd be to be honest - means I get to do it all again eh !
#6
11-05-2015, 05:16 AM
Sounds familiar! It might be the inlet manifold or the gasket between the inlet manifold and the head. The inlet manifold may leak internally and you have to find a replacement. When I took the head off my car I used a wooden hammer here and there and apparently the inlet manifold doesn't like that.
Pressure test the coolant system and look inside the cilinder's. Mine had water gushing in at cil 4,5.
Hope this helps..
Pressure test the coolant system and look inside the cilinder's. Mine had water gushing in at cil 4,5.
Hope this helps..
#7
11-05-2015, 06:53 AM
Good thinking batman.
I'm going to check each head bolt (one at a time) and make sure that the torque setting are correct and also that ive not got my head bolts mixed up as i (now) understand that there should be 4 of the longer studs that are longer than the rest and are just for the lifting eyes
I'll update after the weekend with what i hope will be good news....
If ive still got a problem then ive not cost myself anything and will end up taking the head off again
I'm going to check each head bolt (one at a time) and make sure that the torque setting are correct and also that ive not got my head bolts mixed up as i (now) understand that there should be 4 of the longer studs that are longer than the rest and are just for the lifting eyes
I'll update after the weekend with what i hope will be good news....
If ive still got a problem then ive not cost myself anything and will end up taking the head off again
Last edited by pnwrs2000; 11-05-2015 at 06:55 AM. Reason: Added last line
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#8
11-05-2015, 09:58 AM
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PNWRS:
Two clues, now. I had one before your last post. Each related.
1. Oft skimmed head. Head nuts bottom out and give a false torque number.
2. Misplaced studs. Same result, false torque numbers.
Result: inadequate head to block clamping.
Might save it yet. measure carefully. Exposed threads above seating surface.
Depth of threads in the Acorn nuts. Do the bottom before they seat?
Correct and retorque, one by one. use the proper sequence.
It just might work. In my opinion, well worth the effort.
And, oh yeah, leaking intake check that out, first, maybe...
No definitely first...
Carl
Two clues, now. I had one before your last post. Each related.
1. Oft skimmed head. Head nuts bottom out and give a false torque number.
2. Misplaced studs. Same result, false torque numbers.
Result: inadequate head to block clamping.
Might save it yet. measure carefully. Exposed threads above seating surface.
Depth of threads in the Acorn nuts. Do the bottom before they seat?
Correct and retorque, one by one. use the proper sequence.
It just might work. In my opinion, well worth the effort.
And, oh yeah, leaking intake check that out, first, maybe...
No definitely first...
Carl
#9
11-05-2015, 10:55 AM
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A million years ago I did a head gasket job and bought a set of chrome head nuts to dress up the engine appearance. Long story short, I had to use an extra washer under each of them because they were bottoming out....and not 'clamping'.
So, I agree, lack of 'clamping' is certainly something to look for. And a much less miserable than pulling the head again :-)
Cheers
DD
So, I agree, lack of 'clamping' is certainly something to look for. And a much less miserable than pulling the head again :-)
Cheers
DD
#10
11-05-2015, 02:19 PM
#11
11-07-2015, 05:13 PM
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Was the block the later slotted type, (long slots between each bore ?).It should be and if so, I would not expect cracks between the bores as these slots were designed to stop this syndrome.
That said, however, 1.5 litres is a lot of coolant to go missing. Is there any external evidence of leakage, as you haven't mentioned anything. Try checking for coolant in the engine oil or in the transmission fluid. If your engine oil is mayonnaise the coolant is clearly getting there somehow. On my car I saw a potential path for this in the timing chest area. The timing cover has a port for the coolant to pass from the pump into the block and the aluminium wall can corrode on a sacrificial basis where it is near the iron of the block.
If it is in the tranny fluid, then there is a leak in the transmission cooler that uses the engine coolant to cool the fluid in a heat exchanger. On my old Series 3, a 1980, this was below the radiator, but I'm not sure if it was moved into the radiator on later cars.
If there is no obvious leakage as outlined above, try looking at where coolant gets near the inlet manifold or pipes that go into it. It has not been unknown for vacuum operated heater valves to fail and for coolant to be sucked into the engine via the vacuum lines.
That said, however, 1.5 litres is a lot of coolant to go missing. Is there any external evidence of leakage, as you haven't mentioned anything. Try checking for coolant in the engine oil or in the transmission fluid. If your engine oil is mayonnaise the coolant is clearly getting there somehow. On my car I saw a potential path for this in the timing chest area. The timing cover has a port for the coolant to pass from the pump into the block and the aluminium wall can corrode on a sacrificial basis where it is near the iron of the block.
If it is in the tranny fluid, then there is a leak in the transmission cooler that uses the engine coolant to cool the fluid in a heat exchanger. On my old Series 3, a 1980, this was below the radiator, but I'm not sure if it was moved into the radiator on later cars.
If there is no obvious leakage as outlined above, try looking at where coolant gets near the inlet manifold or pipes that go into it. It has not been unknown for vacuum operated heater valves to fail and for coolant to be sucked into the engine via the vacuum lines.
#12
11-09-2015, 06:20 AM
Ok, did some checking yesterday inbetween pouring rain showers and while the engine was stone cold. Have answered some points below but fingers crossed its so far so good. I really hope this has fixed it
Right, have taken off each acorn nut one at a time, measured and re torqued. Looks like ive definatley got my studs mixed up so have had to use washers to correct the length.
When i took the first nut off a small amount of coolant came up through the stud. Not sure if this is what im guessing to be the coolant sat in the block (or combustion chamber possibly ?) that is then escaping through the easiest path ? The rest were fine and didnt leak coolant though....
If this hasnt worked though and the leak is via the intake somewhere, how would i check to see where / what is leaking ?
Wow that's alot of knowledge !
Right,
1, The block does have the slots so that's ok
2, In heindsight 1.5 litres may have been a bit over egged ! I'd guessed at that as i used a hosepipe in my haste to put some water in before going to work. All last week before i tried the above it used approx. 0.4 litres
3, There are no external leaks
4, Oil is still oily and coolant is still nice and greeny - there is no mayonaise or gloop in the breather at the front or on the filler cap lid, dipstick etc
5, I wasnt aware the tranny oil cooler had a water supply from the engine. I'll have a root around but there's no mayonaise on the tranny dipstick
6, Im not 100% sure on how the heater valves work TBH. I'll have another poke around and see if there is anything obvious
I may or may not be fully fixed yet but ive got to say to all that have responded, your help, knowledge and guidance is bloody brilliant !!!
PNWRS:
Two clues, now. I had one before your last post. Each related.
1. Oft skimmed head. Head nuts bottom out and give a false torque number.
2. Misplaced studs. Same result, false torque numbers.
Result: inadequate head to block clamping.
Might save it yet. measure carefully. Exposed threads above seating surface.
Depth of threads in the Acorn nuts. Do the bottom before they seat?
Correct and retorque, one by one. use the proper sequence.
It just might work. In my opinion, well worth the effort.
And, oh yeah, leaking intake check that out, first, maybe...
No definitely first...
Carl
Two clues, now. I had one before your last post. Each related.
1. Oft skimmed head. Head nuts bottom out and give a false torque number.
2. Misplaced studs. Same result, false torque numbers.
Result: inadequate head to block clamping.
Might save it yet. measure carefully. Exposed threads above seating surface.
Depth of threads in the Acorn nuts. Do the bottom before they seat?
Correct and retorque, one by one. use the proper sequence.
It just might work. In my opinion, well worth the effort.
And, oh yeah, leaking intake check that out, first, maybe...
No definitely first...
Carl
Right, have taken off each acorn nut one at a time, measured and re torqued. Looks like ive definatley got my studs mixed up so have had to use washers to correct the length.
When i took the first nut off a small amount of coolant came up through the stud. Not sure if this is what im guessing to be the coolant sat in the block (or combustion chamber possibly ?) that is then escaping through the easiest path ? The rest were fine and didnt leak coolant though....
If this hasnt worked though and the leak is via the intake somewhere, how would i check to see where / what is leaking ?
Was the block the later slotted type, (long slots between each bore ?).It should be and if so, I would not expect cracks between the bores as these slots were designed to stop this syndrome.
That said, however, 1.5 litres is a lot of coolant to go missing. Is there any external evidence of leakage, as you haven't mentioned anything. Try checking for coolant in the engine oil or in the transmission fluid. If your engine oil is mayonnaise the coolant is clearly getting there somehow. On my car I saw a potential path for this in the timing chest area. The timing cover has a port for the coolant to pass from the pump into the block and the aluminium wall can corrode on a sacrificial basis where it is near the iron of the block.
If it is in the tranny fluid, then there is a leak in the transmission cooler that uses the engine coolant to cool the fluid in a heat exchanger. On my old Series 3, a 1980, this was below the radiator, but I'm not sure if it was moved into the radiator on later cars.
If there is no obvious leakage as outlined above, try looking at where coolant gets near the inlet manifold or pipes that go into it. It has not been unknown for vacuum operated heater valves to fail and for coolant to be sucked into the engine via the vacuum lines.
That said, however, 1.5 litres is a lot of coolant to go missing. Is there any external evidence of leakage, as you haven't mentioned anything. Try checking for coolant in the engine oil or in the transmission fluid. If your engine oil is mayonnaise the coolant is clearly getting there somehow. On my car I saw a potential path for this in the timing chest area. The timing cover has a port for the coolant to pass from the pump into the block and the aluminium wall can corrode on a sacrificial basis where it is near the iron of the block.
If it is in the tranny fluid, then there is a leak in the transmission cooler that uses the engine coolant to cool the fluid in a heat exchanger. On my old Series 3, a 1980, this was below the radiator, but I'm not sure if it was moved into the radiator on later cars.
If there is no obvious leakage as outlined above, try looking at where coolant gets near the inlet manifold or pipes that go into it. It has not been unknown for vacuum operated heater valves to fail and for coolant to be sucked into the engine via the vacuum lines.
Wow that's alot of knowledge !
Right,
1, The block does have the slots so that's ok
2, In heindsight 1.5 litres may have been a bit over egged ! I'd guessed at that as i used a hosepipe in my haste to put some water in before going to work. All last week before i tried the above it used approx. 0.4 litres
3, There are no external leaks
4, Oil is still oily and coolant is still nice and greeny - there is no mayonaise or gloop in the breather at the front or on the filler cap lid, dipstick etc
5, I wasnt aware the tranny oil cooler had a water supply from the engine. I'll have a root around but there's no mayonaise on the tranny dipstick
6, Im not 100% sure on how the heater valves work TBH. I'll have another poke around and see if there is anything obvious
I may or may not be fully fixed yet but ive got to say to all that have responded, your help, knowledge and guidance is bloody brilliant !!!
#13
11-14-2015, 08:58 AM
Veteran Member
On these long stud engines, the studs are wet as they pass through the coolant jacket to the tapped holes that are in the bottom of the engine and accessed via the coolant jacket. Each of the large core plugs on each side of the block is where they are located. There are different lengths of stud, there being four slightly longer so that the engine lifting brackets can be fitted and leave sufficient thread for the head nuts to engage. If you took the long studs out, were you aware that the tapped holes fill up with coolant and can prevent the studs from bottoming in the tapped holes ? Also crud and rust products can fill these tapped holes with the same result. If the long studs are removed, normally one has to clear out the tapped holes. I did this using a specially made-up tap that went in via the stud hole. It was about 14" in length. I also removed the core plugs, and flushed the bloclk out, and also vacuumed out the stud holes too.
As you found out, there is nothing to stop coolant coming out of the top of the headstud passages when a nut is removed, the studs are totally wet. Jaguar advice was to always add a bottle of Barrs Leaks when replacing coolant. Today you're probably better off with K-seal. I've just used this on the wife's New Beetle that had a slight leak where the heater pipe comes out of the block and it has been totally successful.
If there are no external leaks, no mayonnaise in the oil or tranny fluid, no over-pressurisation of the coolant and car is running well, it sounds like coolant is getting in via the inlet manifold. I suggest you test for pressurisation by taking the expansion tank pressure cap off when the engine is cold. There should be no release of pressure. If there is a release of pressure, then combustion gases are getting into the coolant jacket somehow. This is normally the head gasket has failed.
As you found out, there is nothing to stop coolant coming out of the top of the headstud passages when a nut is removed, the studs are totally wet. Jaguar advice was to always add a bottle of Barrs Leaks when replacing coolant. Today you're probably better off with K-seal. I've just used this on the wife's New Beetle that had a slight leak where the heater pipe comes out of the block and it has been totally successful.
If there are no external leaks, no mayonnaise in the oil or tranny fluid, no over-pressurisation of the coolant and car is running well, it sounds like coolant is getting in via the inlet manifold. I suggest you test for pressurisation by taking the expansion tank pressure cap off when the engine is cold. There should be no release of pressure. If there is a release of pressure, then combustion gases are getting into the coolant jacket somehow. This is normally the head gasket has failed.
Last edited by Fraser Mitchell; 11-14-2015 at 09:01 AM.
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pnwrs2000 (11-17-2015)
#14
11-14-2015, 11:16 AM
When my inlet manifold was leaking there might have been leaks in my headgasket too. Found some spots. Definately go check that out. I thought it couldn't be my headgasket too but the garage confirmed it.
Go to the garage and get a CO2 tester (I think?) Take coolant cap off and test for gasses.
Start the engine with coolant cap off. If it's spewing, it's bad.
For the intake: Pressurize the system and look in the cilinders, or take off the carbs and look there.
Go to the garage and get a CO2 tester (I think?) Take coolant cap off and test for gasses.
Start the engine with coolant cap off. If it's spewing, it's bad.
For the intake: Pressurize the system and look in the cilinders, or take off the carbs and look there.
#15
11-17-2015, 04:00 AM
On these long stud engines, the studs are wet as they pass through the coolant jacket to the tapped holes that are in the bottom of the engine and accessed via the coolant jacket. Each of the large core plugs on each side of the block is where they are located. There are different lengths of stud, there being four slightly longer so that the engine lifting brackets can be fitted and leave sufficient thread for the head nuts to engage. If you took the long studs out, were you aware that the tapped holes fill up with coolant and can prevent the studs from bottoming in the tapped holes ? Also crud and rust products can fill these tapped holes with the same result. If the long studs are removed, normally one has to clear out the tapped holes. I did this using a specially made-up tap that went in via the stud hole. It was about 14" in length. I also removed the core plugs, and flushed the bloclk out, and also vacuumed out the stud holes too.
As you found out, there is nothing to stop coolant coming out of the top of the headstud passages when a nut is removed, the studs are totally wet. Jaguar advice was to always add a bottle of Barrs Leaks when replacing coolant. Today you're probably better off with K-seal. I've just used this on the wife's New Beetle that had a slight leak where the heater pipe comes out of the block and it has been totally successful.
If there are no external leaks, no mayonnaise in the oil or tranny fluid, no over-pressurisation of the coolant and car is running well, it sounds like coolant is getting in via the inlet manifold. I suggest you test for pressurisation by taking the expansion tank pressure cap off when the engine is cold. There should be no release of pressure. If there is a release of pressure, then combustion gases are getting into the coolant jacket somehow. This is normally the head gasket has failed.
As you found out, there is nothing to stop coolant coming out of the top of the headstud passages when a nut is removed, the studs are totally wet. Jaguar advice was to always add a bottle of Barrs Leaks when replacing coolant. Today you're probably better off with K-seal. I've just used this on the wife's New Beetle that had a slight leak where the heater pipe comes out of the block and it has been totally successful.
If there are no external leaks, no mayonnaise in the oil or tranny fluid, no over-pressurisation of the coolant and car is running well, it sounds like coolant is getting in via the inlet manifold. I suggest you test for pressurisation by taking the expansion tank pressure cap off when the engine is cold. There should be no release of pressure. If there is a release of pressure, then combustion gases are getting into the coolant jacket somehow. This is normally the head gasket has failed.
When the engine is cold and i take the cap off there is a bit of pressure there. 1 bottle (8oz) of K Seal later and so far so good.......
All i can think is that as my head is on its last skim (so its overall depth is quite a bit less than if it was a new head) and i got a couple of studs in the wrong holes then even with the extra washers there is still a small leak somewhere ?
Fingers, toes and everything else is crossed !
Thanks again for your and everybody's help - its very much appreciated !
#16
11-17-2015, 04:11 PM
Veteran Member
I hope it keeps running OK !
My mechanic says K-seal is amazing stuff, as he had a customer in with a cracked block due to frost damage, and didn't have the money for permanent repairs. So a can of Kseal was put in and managed to seal the cracks and the car ran for another 18 months before it was sold on and was perfectly OK with no leaks when sold !!
Needless to say we are in "banger" territory here !
My mechanic says K-seal is amazing stuff, as he had a customer in with a cracked block due to frost damage, and didn't have the money for permanent repairs. So a can of Kseal was put in and managed to seal the cracks and the car ran for another 18 months before it was sold on and was perfectly OK with no leaks when sold !!
Needless to say we are in "banger" territory here !
#17
11-19-2015, 05:05 AM
Ok Fraser, have been doing some more checking etc following on from your post.
When the engine is cold and i take the cap off there is a bit of pressure there. 1 bottle (8oz) of K Seal later and so far so good.......
All i can think is that as my head is on its last skim (so its overall depth is quite a bit less than if it was a new head) and i got a couple of studs in the wrong holes then even with the extra washers there is still a small leak somewhere ?
Fingers, toes and everything else is crossed !
Thanks again for your and everybody's help - its very much appreciated !
When the engine is cold and i take the cap off there is a bit of pressure there. 1 bottle (8oz) of K Seal later and so far so good.......
All i can think is that as my head is on its last skim (so its overall depth is quite a bit less than if it was a new head) and i got a couple of studs in the wrong holes then even with the extra washers there is still a small leak somewhere ?
Fingers, toes and everything else is crossed !
Thanks again for your and everybody's help - its very much appreciated !
#18
11-19-2015, 06:01 AM
Back to square one
Yesterday when I started the car up from cold to drive home from work it had a misfire for about 2 seconds and then cleared so after checking and despite a bottle of K Seal, im still using water
Assuming the head gasket is actually fine and that my leak might be coming from the inlet side, I cant get my head around how it could / where it could be leaking, how to test it and then how to fix it.
I think I might not be seeing the wood for the trees so to speak.
All very annoying !
Yesterday when I started the car up from cold to drive home from work it had a misfire for about 2 seconds and then cleared so after checking and despite a bottle of K Seal, im still using water
Assuming the head gasket is actually fine and that my leak might be coming from the inlet side, I cant get my head around how it could / where it could be leaking, how to test it and then how to fix it.
I think I might not be seeing the wood for the trees so to speak.
All very annoying !