Electrical help needed BAD!!!
#1
12-05-2009, 09:04 AM
Electrical help needed BAD!!!
Sorry to cross-post, but it seems that no one ventures into the world of early-model XJs. Here's from my post in that section, in the hopes that someone can help!!!
Translator was the only one trying to help. I have yet to find and try the inertia switch reset.
I seriously need some help here, folks, because this is my only mode of transportation, and if it's dead in the water, I'm a stuck duck...lol. I also posted in the jag-lovers forums.
I've had an intermittent problem with my car's electrical system completely going out. Nothing would work: the car wouldn't turn over, the lights wouldn't come on, nothing would happen. It was like the whole system was grounding out or something.
What I've done since I've had the car was put in an aftermarket (Sony) stereo. The wired it up weird, so I rewired it (they had the thing wired so that when the car was off, the whole radio was off, and when I started the car, the radio would come on like it hadn't had power). They had the hot AND the ignition wires to the radio on the hot wire, so that when I turned the car on, I had to reprogram my stations again. Also, I replaced all the window switches. Many of you may remember the problem I had doing that. For some reason now, the windows only work when the passenger-side window switch has been tapped on. I also put the old ignition switch back into the car, since the one that was in it broke (the key would turn 360 degrees but not start the car, etc).
So, today, I'm driving down the road, minding my own business, when all of the sudden the car shuts off. First time it had done this. So, I tap here and fiddle there, like I always do when it doesn't start. After an hour of nothing happening, I gave up. Now, here's the weird thing. The clock in the car would work, until I turned the ignition to the ON position. Then nothing. The clock would stop working.
Now, if I cross the starter solenoid to the starter, the car turns over, but doesn't start (presumably because the car is constantly in OFF mode).
My questions are:
Where does the problem lie?
Is there a main relay that I don't know about?
What I've done since I've had the car was put in an aftermarket (Sony) stereo. The wired it up weird, so I rewired it (they had the thing wired so that when the car was off, the whole radio was off, and when I started the car, the radio would come on like it hadn't had power). They had the hot AND the ignition wires to the radio on the hot wire, so that when I turned the car on, I had to reprogram my stations again. Also, I replaced all the window switches. Many of you may remember the problem I had doing that. For some reason now, the windows only work when the passenger-side window switch has been tapped on. I also put the old ignition switch back into the car, since the one that was in it broke (the key would turn 360 degrees but not start the car, etc).
So, today, I'm driving down the road, minding my own business, when all of the sudden the car shuts off. First time it had done this. So, I tap here and fiddle there, like I always do when it doesn't start. After an hour of nothing happening, I gave up. Now, here's the weird thing. The clock in the car would work, until I turned the ignition to the ON position. Then nothing. The clock would stop working.
Now, if I cross the starter solenoid to the starter, the car turns over, but doesn't start (presumably because the car is constantly in OFF mode).
My questions are:
Where does the problem lie?
Is there a main relay that I don't know about?
I seriously need some help here, folks, because this is my only mode of transportation, and if it's dead in the water, I'm a stuck duck...lol. I also posted in the jag-lovers forums.
#2
12-05-2009, 10:56 AM
#3
12-05-2009, 12:35 PM
OK. So I went out and bought a 12v tester, and it seems that I have juice to stuff until I turn stuff on (lights, ignition, etc). Since the car now has a Chevy 350, and a different radiator system, the person who put that stuff in moved all the relays from where they were on the front of the car in the engine compartment, to the passenger-side wheel well inside the engine compartment. Not sure which relay is what now, so I don't know what should always have power to it, and what shouldn't.
Any ideas?
Any ideas?
#4
12-05-2009, 01:05 PM
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Motor, to me, it sounds like a high resistance connection somewhere. I would be venturing to guess that it is somewhere between where the alternator/battery tie together and the main fuse box. So, what I would tell you to do is to turn on say the headlights (something that causes the car to go into this failure mode) and start following the main power wire between the battery and the main fuse box. If it is exposed wiring (ie, lugged wire, plug, etc), stick your tester in there and see if you have power on both sides of the connection. From there, you should find a spot where you have power on one end of a wire and no power on the other (or very little). Between those two spots is your bad connection/wire.
Another temporary thing is to get some 8 gauge wire and run a new wire between the battery and the fuse box. That should bypass where your problem is.
If you can't find a bad connection this way, then you can do the same thing with your ground wires. But, in this case, start at the body and work your way to the battery. In this case, if you have voltage, then you know you are coming up on the problem and all the wiring between where you are and that point is good.
If you need more help, let me know. This is one of the issues when doing major mods to a vehicle. It can make fairly simple problems a headache.
One last thing that popped into my head. Where do the battery/ground wires run in relation to the exhaust headers? If they are within say 6" of each other, take a really good look at the wiring there. That would be another likely place you could have issues.
Another temporary thing is to get some 8 gauge wire and run a new wire between the battery and the fuse box. That should bypass where your problem is.
If you can't find a bad connection this way, then you can do the same thing with your ground wires. But, in this case, start at the body and work your way to the battery. In this case, if you have voltage, then you know you are coming up on the problem and all the wiring between where you are and that point is good.
If you need more help, let me know. This is one of the issues when doing major mods to a vehicle. It can make fairly simple problems a headache.
One last thing that popped into my head. Where do the battery/ground wires run in relation to the exhaust headers? If they are within say 6" of each other, take a really good look at the wiring there. That would be another likely place you could have issues.
#5
12-05-2009, 03:27 PM
I was thinking about the temporary thing, but wasn't sure if I should do that (bypassing stuff). I need to figure out what's up with this stupid thing...lol.
How do I test ground wires with my tester? I don't guess that I would clip onto a ground, and then stick my tester on a ground?
I was going to try your suggestion of turning something on (faulting it out, essentially), and then start poking things. Whatever comes up without power, and the thing before it HAS power, there's a general location, etc., etc. I'm also thinking it's one of the relays, so I'll have to buy one and change a few out here and there.
I'll let you know what happens.
How do I test ground wires with my tester? I don't guess that I would clip onto a ground, and then stick my tester on a ground?
I was going to try your suggestion of turning something on (faulting it out, essentially), and then start poking things. Whatever comes up without power, and the thing before it HAS power, there's a general location, etc., etc. I'm also thinking it's one of the relays, so I'll have to buy one and change a few out here and there.
I'll let you know what happens.
#6
12-05-2009, 09:50 PM
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Motor, yes, you would be connecting one end to ground and then probing ground. BUt, in this case, you have to think of the light backwards. An on light is indicating a fault, an off light indicating a good. In this case, if you have a bad ground wire, where the ground wire is good between the load and the fault, it will be up at 12 VDC roughly. So, this will cause the light to light. You can also think of it like a pipe with water flowing through it. If you were to shut a valve in that pipe, all the pressure builds up behind the valve until it is opened. Using this analogy, the fault you have is the valve. The pressure you would see is the voltage. Insert the fault and all the pressure builds up.
#7
12-05-2009, 09:56 PM
So, you're saying if my tester is on, then it's a fault? There is power to almost everything in my engine compartment except two relays (presumably relays that were once above the radiator inside the engine compartment, but are now on the passenger side - right side - wheel well inside the engine compartment). I'm not sure which relay goes to what, since they may have been put out of order when moved.
Side note - my tester instructions tell me that if the light is red, it indicated positive polarity, and if my light is green, it indicates negative polarity. On everything I have tested thus far, it reads red (positive polarity). When I turn anything on, the light goes out (my way of thinking says it's draining the system somewhere). Is that faulty thinking? Or are you talking about only checking grounds?
Side note - my tester instructions tell me that if the light is red, it indicated positive polarity, and if my light is green, it indicates negative polarity. On everything I have tested thus far, it reads red (positive polarity). When I turn anything on, the light goes out (my way of thinking says it's draining the system somewhere). Is that faulty thinking? Or are you talking about only checking grounds?
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#8
12-06-2009, 09:12 AM
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Motor, when interpreting the light of your tester, you need to know if you are measuring a battery wire or a ground wire. If you are testing a battery wire, then if the light is on, that is saying you have good wire between the battery and that point, therefore your problem is downstream of this point. So, you need to keep moving further towards all the loads of the vehicle. If the light is out, that is saying that the problem is closer to the battery from the measured point.
When it comes to checking the grounds, if the light is on, your problem is between that point and the battery (opposite of the battery wire checks).
As for the red/green light bit, don't be worrying about that. All that is saying is your tester is connected up backwards (ie, tester's ground lead is on a power wire, the probe is connected to ground). THis is important for some of the positive grounded cars (if you don't know what I mean by that, don't worry about it, you don't have it).
You need to figure out what those relays are for. If you can get your hands on a set of diagrams, then you can look at the wire colors and match things up from there. Worst case, send me the wiring colors to each of the relays and I will see if I can figure it out. I have the diagrams for the XJ'S back to I think 96, possibly further. So, I might be able to help. That might explain everything.
When it comes to checking the grounds, if the light is on, your problem is between that point and the battery (opposite of the battery wire checks).
As for the red/green light bit, don't be worrying about that. All that is saying is your tester is connected up backwards (ie, tester's ground lead is on a power wire, the probe is connected to ground). THis is important for some of the positive grounded cars (if you don't know what I mean by that, don't worry about it, you don't have it).
You need to figure out what those relays are for. If you can get your hands on a set of diagrams, then you can look at the wire colors and match things up from there. Worst case, send me the wiring colors to each of the relays and I will see if I can figure it out. I have the diagrams for the XJ'S back to I think 96, possibly further. So, I might be able to help. That might explain everything.
#9
12-06-2009, 05:40 PM
OK. I gotcha on the light on/off thing.
I do have a wiring diagram, and have figured out that one of the relays is for the lights...lol.
I'll try to figure the rest out as you said. Also, do ALL of the relays have power to them ALL of the time? If they ARE supposed to, then two of the relays are missing power from somewhere. If they're not, then I'm really screwed up at this point.
I do have a wiring diagram, and have figured out that one of the relays is for the lights...lol.
I'll try to figure the rest out as you said. Also, do ALL of the relays have power to them ALL of the time? If they ARE supposed to, then two of the relays are missing power from somewhere. If they're not, then I'm really screwed up at this point.
#10
12-06-2009, 06:40 PM
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Motor, most relays should have power supplied to the #30 pin at all time. This is the power coming from the battery. The control signal (that supplied to either pin #85 or #86) will then be supplied from something coming from the ignition switch. This allows for the heavy current draw systems to turn off when the ignition switch is not in the RUN position yet keep all the current away from the ignition switch itself. But, you will need to look at the diagrams and trace back where the power is coming from. That will be your definitive answer. If you have more of the traditional Jaguar relays in there that are labelled 1, 2, etc, then you will need to look into that a little more. I would tell you the answer now, but right now I am in the middle of reformatting my harddrive and my JTIS is therefore out of commission.
Worst case, if you can scan the diagrams in, I can help you out that way.
Worst case, if you can scan the diagrams in, I can help you out that way.
#11
12-06-2009, 10:52 PM
Thanks greatly, Thermoman!!! I'll have to take pictures (lol) of the wiring diags, since my printer/scanner cable is broken (don't ask). If I may, I'll email them to you so that it will keep the hi-res of the photos. I'll also take some pictures of the 6 relays I'm looking at in the engine compartment, and label the wire colors for them. I'll have to do all that tomorrow though, since it's so freakin cold outside.
I think the relays are all Jag since they all say Lucas.
Is the JTIS year/model specific, or does it cover all years?
And thanks to Translator, as well, for the initial try, though you're not as well versed with my model car.
I think the relays are all Jag since they all say Lucas.
Is the JTIS year/model specific, or does it cover all years?
And thanks to Translator, as well, for the initial try, though you're not as well versed with my model car.
Last edited by m0t0rm0uth; 12-06-2009 at 10:56 PM.
#12
12-06-2009, 11:22 PM
Braving the 15 degree weather, I hard wired the brown wires that go to the ignition switch to the battery. I then used the white/yellow wire to try to hot-wire the car. It turns over and over, but no fire. I know the gas is pumping into the intake because I can smell it, but it's not firing, which tells me that the coil isn't working. Am I one step closer to figuring this crap out, or am I chasing a ghost?
In conjunction with that, does the cold start relay have anything to do with this equation? Because, I really don't have any clue what it does.
In conjunction with that, does the cold start relay have anything to do with this equation? Because, I really don't have any clue what it does.
#13
12-07-2009, 04:29 AM
Translator PMed me with some things to try, which I will be doing in the AM. Another thing I failed to mention is that I don't currently have the ignition switch in the car...I'm simply working with the wires themselves. In that, I've crossed the brown leads and have them hard-wired to the battery (not all the time), and then try hot-wiring it using the white/yellow wire. Thus, there are 3 other wires simply dangling about (the brown/purple wire has no use, I guess, since it was never connected in the first place when I got the car). Should I have the white/pink wire connected to something, since it, apparently, goes to the ignition protection relay? And the white, since it looks to be going (indirectly, via a line splice) to the ballast resistor (whatever that is)?
Have I gotten in over my head, and should just take the stinking thing somewhere and shell out some cash to have THEM figure it out? lol
Have I gotten in over my head, and should just take the stinking thing somewhere and shell out some cash to have THEM figure it out? lol
#14
12-07-2009, 10:50 AM
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OK, so you now are in a position to temporarily crank the car, but still no start.
You've got fuel.
Now is the time to fit a temp hot wire from the batt+ to the coil+ and re-crank. If the coil is good you'll get a satisfying rumble.
From what I can see the white/pink goes to the Gear position switch, and the WHT is between Starter Relay and Starter.
There is a good chunk of info in the XJS Manual I sent you (around page 45).
Also see this http://www.jagbits.com/nostart.html
At the end of the day you need replace the ignition switch.
Does your model of car have the center fuse box? (I don't know),
Cheers,
Rich
You've got fuel.
Now is the time to fit a temp hot wire from the batt+ to the coil+ and re-crank. If the coil is good you'll get a satisfying rumble.
From what I can see the white/pink goes to the Gear position switch, and the WHT is between Starter Relay and Starter.
There is a good chunk of info in the XJS Manual I sent you (around page 45).
Also see this http://www.jagbits.com/nostart.html
At the end of the day you need replace the ignition switch.
Does your model of car have the center fuse box? (I don't know),
Cheers,
Rich
#15
12-07-2009, 11:24 AM
From the bottom -
Yes it has a central fuse box. I tried pulling one fuse at a time to see if the problem would go away, thus narrowing down or isolating the problem. No dice. Nothing changed.
Yes, I still need to replace the ignition switch. $80 for the electrical part of it. Maybe someone can get it cheaper elsewhere.
I've read and reread that jagbits article, but to no avail.
I've been looking through the XJS manual you sent me, too. I keep referring to it.
In my wiring diagram, the white/pink wire goes to the ignition protection relay. I'll email you pictures of it when I email Thermo.
I've been wanting to put a temp hotwire to the coil, but out of fear of blowing myself up, or even worse, my Jag, I've hesitated doing it.
I'll keep plugging away, and go ahead and hook up a temp hot wire to the coil to see if she fires. Thanks Rich!
Yes it has a central fuse box. I tried pulling one fuse at a time to see if the problem would go away, thus narrowing down or isolating the problem. No dice. Nothing changed.
Yes, I still need to replace the ignition switch. $80 for the electrical part of it. Maybe someone can get it cheaper elsewhere.
I've read and reread that jagbits article, but to no avail.
I've been looking through the XJS manual you sent me, too. I keep referring to it.
In my wiring diagram, the white/pink wire goes to the ignition protection relay. I'll email you pictures of it when I email Thermo.
I've been wanting to put a temp hotwire to the coil, but out of fear of blowing myself up, or even worse, my Jag, I've hesitated doing it.
I'll keep plugging away, and go ahead and hook up a temp hot wire to the coil to see if she fires. Thanks Rich!
#16
12-07-2009, 11:48 AM
I have verified that I have NO JUICE running to the coil on the electronic distributor. One step closer, I hope.
Now, according to my wiring diagram, there are numerous things between the coil and the battery, two of which are the ballast resistor and the starter solenoid/ballast coil relay. I have to trace the wires to find which of those is what and where they are, but hopefully I can do that today.
The car also starts up when I hard wire the coil to the battery.
Now, according to my wiring diagram, there are numerous things between the coil and the battery, two of which are the ballast resistor and the starter solenoid/ballast coil relay. I have to trace the wires to find which of those is what and where they are, but hopefully I can do that today.
The car also starts up when I hard wire the coil to the battery.
Last edited by m0t0rm0uth; 12-07-2009 at 12:06 PM.
#17
12-07-2009, 03:01 PM
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Motor, you can e-mail them to me at thermomonkey@yahoo.com. I now have my computer back up and running and I have from 95 to present with the diagrams for the XJ's. So, as long as the body styles are the same between yours and the 95, all should be good.
#18
12-07-2009, 03:13 PM
No, thermo...they're not even remotely close. Mine is a 76 XJ12, which is a series 2 body style. I'll email you the wiring diagram (as well as to Rich).
I'll also reassemble my ignition switch and put it back in, and see what happens.
**EDIT** I reassembled my ignition switch, and because a small piece that holds the whole thing together got broken off at some point, I'm having to use epoxy to glue it back together. I've update when the glue has dried and I put the ignition switch back in.
I'll also reassemble my ignition switch and put it back in, and see what happens.
**EDIT** I reassembled my ignition switch, and because a small piece that holds the whole thing together got broken off at some point, I'm having to use epoxy to glue it back together. I've update when the glue has dried and I put the ignition switch back in.
Last edited by m0t0rm0uth; 12-07-2009 at 04:58 PM.
#19
12-07-2009, 08:49 PM
Pictures emailed.
Also, here is a picture of a relay above the fuse box. Now, it's my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, that ALL relays with power to them without turning on the ignition should ALSO have power going OUT of them. This relay has juice going in (brown wire) but no juice coming out. I have no idea what this relay is for, either. Main relay?
Also, here is a picture of a relay above the fuse box. Now, it's my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, that ALL relays with power to them without turning on the ignition should ALSO have power going OUT of them. This relay has juice going in (brown wire) but no juice coming out. I have no idea what this relay is for, either. Main relay?
Last edited by m0t0rm0uth; 12-07-2009 at 09:23 PM.
#20
12-08-2009, 05:18 AM
Veteran Member
Er, not exactly MOtor. Thermo can explain better than me, but for a simple idea have a read of this. OK so you are not installing a PC just yet, but it gives an explanation with pics.
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/faq-...w-wire-up.html
Cheers,
Richard
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/faq-...w-wire-up.html
Cheers,
Richard