I am fast approaching the time when i'm going to decide to do an almost complete rewiring of my car, bypassing/removing things that aren't needed, etc. I am in the process of taking the dash and center console apart so that I can follow wiring with a bit more ease. I'll have to rent or buy another car so that I can get around in the meantime.

"Christine" is now top on my "Butts That WILL Get Kicked Before I Die" list.

 

Motor, when it comes to relays having power in and power out, think of it this way: a relay has 2 power sources to it with 1) power from the battery and 2) power used to turn the relay on and off (think of a light switch). With this being said, the power from the battery is always there, but the power to turn the relay on and off is not. This is what tells the relay to be on or off. With that being said, the power for the switching of the relay is normally run through the ignition switch. This allows the large current loads to be automatically switched off when the car is turned off, thus minimizing the current going through the ignition switch, allowing for more of a safety margin since less current is going through it.

You can also think of a relay as a light switch in your house where the power going to the overhead light is the power from the battery. Until the switch is turned on, the light is off. In the case of a relay, instead of you using your finger to turn the switch on, you are using an electrical device to operate the switch. The power to "flip the switch" is the power that is coming from your ignition switch.

Hopefully this makes sense to you.

 

Yes, makes perfect sense (since I do a lot of electrical stuff in my house, and have been doing residential construction and remodeling for years).

So, that being said, if I have relays that have two wires that are hot (though the car is off), could that be an indication of a problem, and where the initial problem lies?

 

Motor, what I want you to do is to wire up the car so you can get it to crank (whether the ignition switch is install or you are touching wire together). Now, install a jumper wire from the positive battery post to the wire between the ballast resistor and the starter/ignition relay (the WU wire on the drawing). Now, attempt to start the car. Does it start? If yes, let me know and I will tell you how to get atleast a temporary fix into the car to get you back on the road. If the car will not fire, return the car to the point that all circuits have power (ie, ignition switch in RUN), now are you getting atleast 10 VDC (above 5 VDC is acceptable) on the wire running between the ballast resistor and the coil? If no, you have a bad ballast resistor or a wiring problem beween the ballast resistor and the coil. if you do have atleast 10 VDC there, measure on the other side of the coil. Do you have 10 VDC there (the same voltage as seen before, up to 0.5 VDC less is ok)? If no, bad ignition coil. If yes, with the multimeter still connected to the wire in the last check, crank over the engine. Does the voltage fall to roughly half of what it was? If no, looking like a bad ignition control module or a wiring problem between the ignition control module and the distributor. If yes, then you have a distributor problem more than likely as the spark is not getting from the coil to the plugs. Take a look at the rotor and cap and see what you can find.

Now, back to the original problem where all the power goes away once something gets started. With everything off, what is the voltage across the battery (touching the battery posts? Should be 12.6 VDC. If not, place the battery on a charger and restore to 12.6 VDC. Now, with the multimeter still connected across the battery, turn on your headlights (low beam only). Does the multimeter stay between 12.4-12.6 VDC? If no, you have a bad battery. IF you still have more than 12.4 VDC, move the red lead over to the "N" wire on the starter/ignition relay. Do you still have more than 12.4 VDC? If yes, let me know and we will take it from here. If no, move the red lead over to the battery post of the starter solenoid. Do you have more than 12.4 VDC here? If no, sounds like your positive battery wire is toast and needs replaced. If yes, let me know and we will continue troubleshooting the car from this point.

Not trying to give you too much at any one time. We will get this figured out. But, I have to agree, getting a new wiring harness might be a good idea. Painless sells a kit that can be easily adapted to your car for around $300. It won't cover everything, but it will get a majority of it. The hard part will be adapting the wiring harness for like the ignition amplifier and things like that. For that, you will need to get a bit of wire and create your own small harnesses to connect things up. The big thing with this is doing a majority of the wiring but leaving all the fuses out of the new box. Then, install a fuse, test out that circuit and make sure that is the only circuit that is doing anything. Install the next fuse and test that one. Trust me, it will make figuring out what you messed up in the wiring much easier to figure out, coming from a guy that has rewired boats and whatnot.

let me know what you find and we will get the kitty back up and running here soon.

 

OK. I'll have to get a voltmeter tomorrow, and start checking things. Here's one issue, though: I have no idea where the ballast resistor and starter relay are. That's part of my problem in this whole thing. Did you get the emails and pictures? Is the starter relay a basic 4 pronged relay? I'll try to find it using the wire color codes, but I'm not sure if I'll be looking in the engine compartment or under the dash. Also, I don't know where the ballast resistor is. I traced the wire from the coil all the way to the point it enters into the car body to go under the dash, so I'm guessing (albeit possibly erroneously) that the ballast resistor is under the dash. That's ok, because I'm in the process of tearing down the dash anyway. I just don't know what I'm looking for. Does it look like a relay? Or is it cylindrical? Big? Small? I don't have a picture of it in my manual. I found a few online, but I doubt they look like that now. I may have to do the same thing...simply go by wire colors.

I AM determined to bring Christine back from the dead!!! lol

 

Motor, I keep on forgetting that we are dealing with a Chevy motor here. You most likely don't have a starter solenoid any more that is remotely mounted like I am thinking. If you look on the starter, you will see a big wire (coming from the battery) and then a small wire. Follow this small wire back. That will lead you to the starter/ignition relay I am talking about. If it runs to a wire that goes through the dash, then odds are the guy who installed the motor removed this relay and wired the starter directly to the ignition switch.

As for the ballast resistor, I am not sure if the Chevy HEI distributors need a ballast resistor or not. But, if you look, you have 2 wires coming out of the distributor. One will run over to the fire wall, that wire is for the tach. The other wire will run back towards the starter/ignition relay (if still installed as stated above). But, in the middle of this wire, you will see what appears to be a lump in the wiring (more than likely about 12mmx12mmx50mm, or 1/2"x1/2"x2"). That is your ballast resistor. If you don't see a lump, then the HEI system does not require a ballast resistor.

Hopefully this explains some stuff for you and helps you get things figured out.

 

Thermo,

Yea, I do have the Chevy 350...lol. The starter solenoid is mounted on the starter itself. If the small wire goes from the solenoid to the starter relay, then that is what is on the bulkhead right near the battery (see attached picture). If I don't need a starter relay for my 350 (this is where YOU say yes or no), then I will bypass that relay and go directly to the ignition switch.

As for the HEI distributor, I'll call my autoparts place (I generally deal with Napa, since the one I go to has a few guys in there who are ex-mechanics) and ask them if my HEI needs a ballast resistor. My older brother (who is WELL versed with Chevys, and has taught me almost everything I know about motors thus far in my life) says that it DOES need one (because of the surge and drop in voltage to the distributor from the starter). I do have two wires from the HEI coil for the tach and the +...but I also have another set of wires (3 of them) that I don't know what they are. I'll ask my brother on that one, or talk to my parts place.

The hot wire that comes from the coil (HEI) goes directly to the firewall, in a hole into the body (by way of the wheel well), and into the cockpit of the car. I lose the batch of wires it's grouped with because of the dash...and THAT'S the reason I said in a previous post that I'm going to end up just taking out the dash and center console so that I can find and test stuff easier.

I also have yet to get a multimeter (will be doing so sometime today). I will check the things you said in your prior post when I do.

As for Rich's email, trust me, Rich...everything I don't know right now can only help!! lol

 

Motor, I would place money now that if you get a new coil for the HEI distributor and then wire in the resistor in series with the coil, your car will fire right up. Without the resistor, the coil is pulling too much current and probably fried itself due to overheating. Once that happens, you will get no spark. I can't say that I have ever seen a ballasting resistor for the coil mounted anywhere other than just outside of the distributor. I would do a quick idiot check and check to see if you have 12 VDC at the wire running into the coil. If yes, then that almost confirms the bad coil (would just need to verify that the ground inside the distributor is working).

As for the need for the starter solenoid, cut that puppy out and simplify the wiring. Just make sure that you are running a wire from the starting lead on the ignition switch straight to the starter. Then you can move the wire running to the ignition switch for the coil to a more direct route to the firewall. That should clean up some of your mess there wiring wise. With that being said, it would be a good idea to put an inline fuse between the ignition switch and the terminal on the starter. That way, should you have a problem, the fuse blows before you turn a wire into a big heating element. It only needs to be a 10 amp fuse (can probably get away with a 5 amp fuse though). But, for the moment, get the kitty purring again.

Looking more at the wiring diagram, a big "weak link" I see in the car is the main post where all the wires meet up right off of the battery. Not sure exactly how it is inside of the car, but you get any sort of high resistance on that post with all the terminals on it and it will raise all sorts of cane with the car. Granted, the only way to truely fix it is to disconnect that connection and then clean each post till you have nothing but shiny metal then put a little dab of dielectric grease across each connector (both sides) and then restack the leads like you found them. If in doubt as to the stacking order, put all of the large wires at the bottom and work your way down in physical wire size till the small wires are all at the top. That should minimize future problems too as all the high current stuff will be together, minimizing the amount of connections it has to flow through.

 

So, pardon my ignorance, but would this have anything to do with my initial problem of my whole electrical system having just enough current to run my clock, but when I turn ANYTHING on, it kills the whole system?

OK. I can honestly say that I don't "THINK" the ballasting resistor is mounted right by the distributor, since there's only a wire that goes straight from the coil (HEI) to the firewall above the RH wheelwell, and then into the cockpit. I will check the VDC.

That's part of my whole problem, is that I have no idea what that looks like. The starter and solenoid are one piece. See this link: http://partimages.genpt.com/largeimages/784239.jpg

That'll work to get her running again, I agree.

Well, it's basically a bolt stuck in the bulkhead right beside the battery and below a relay (that I don't know which relay it is, exactly, yet) with ALL those wires running to it (hot from the starter solenoid), and the wires running every which direction.

I will try that, too, before I monkey around with the coil wiring, etc.

 

MOtor, I mis spoke. You can cut out the starter/ignition relay, not the starter solenoid itself. Sorry about that typo. If you can just move the wire running from the starter to running straight thru the firewall and to the ignition switch, that should be all that you need to do. Sounds like the HEI coil has already been bypassed.

The ballasting resistor from my experience is always mounted near the distributor. I am not sure why they would mount it elsewhere. Take a look under the dash. I wish I could put my hands on the car and help you out with this as it would make things so much easier.

Sounds like you know what the main junction that I see as the weak link is. Take some time with that and see what happens. Hopefully that will solve your gremlin.

 

So, I'm standing out there, staring into the abyss that are the wires to that main junction, and dreading taking them all off, cleaning each and every one of them, as well as scrubbing the bolt that they attach to, and it dawns on me:

If that's the MAIN junction for the ENTIRE electrical system, why don't I clean them all, reattach them all, see if the problem still exists. If it DOES, take off one wire at a time, screw the nut back down, and try to use the process of elimination (by way of removing power to certain systems one at a time, similar to what my older brother told me to do, by removing one fuse at a time to try that same process...which didn't work, by the way).

So, that's what I'll do. Clean each connection at that junction, try ALL the wires to see if the problem still exists, then take one wire at a time off to try to narrow what system is giving me the headache.

I'm so smart I should be in detention...lol.

 

Motor, yes, that should work. Granted, I would use a half splitting technique so you have to do fewer itterations of screwing the nut on and off. Put on half the wires (basically those needed to run the car) and the start the car. Is the problem still there? If no, you can add half of the wires that are left and then repeat. If you do get the problem, you can take off half the wires and see if the problem still exists. You keep on splitting the wiring in question in half until you are down to no more wires that can be installed. If you know that some wires are good, you may want to mark them with say some masking tape so you don't have to pull them off once you start this process.

 

Good call. Thanks Chris!

 

Keeping fingers crossed, and sending positive thoughts. lol

 

Thanks Rich...lol. I need ALL the help I can get.

 

Ha ha ha ha, he said "positive" thoughts. I bet it will be positive. Sorry if you are not laughing, electrical humor that is pretty lame.

 

**whispering to Thermo** I wonder if Rich caught his own pun? Or if he did it on purpose?

 

Well fielded Thermo

Motor if all else fails, have a think about this.

DARK CONSPIRACY INVOLVING ELECTRICAL POWER COMPANIES SURFACES
Rewritten by the Quantum Mechanic
(Author Unknown)
Updated 8/7/88 W0PN


For years the electrical utility companies have led the public to believe they were in business to supply electricity to the consumer, a service for which they charge a substantial rate. The recent accidental acquisition of secret records from a well known power company has led to a massive research campaign which positively explodes several myths and exposes the massive hoax which has been perpetrated upon the public by the power companies.



The most common hoax promoted the false concept that light bulbs emitted light; in actuality, these 'light' bulbs actually absorb DARK which is then transported back to the power generation stations via wire networks. A more descriptive name has now been coined; the new scientific name for the device is DARKSUCKER.


This newsletter introduces a brief synopsis of the darksucker theory, which proves the existence of dark and establishes the fact that dark has great mass, and further, that dark particle (the anti-photon) is the fastest known particle in the universe. Apparently, even the celebrated Dr. Albert Einstein did not suspect the truth.. that just as COLD is the absence of HEAT, LIGHT is actually the ABSENCE of DARK... scientists have now proven that light does not really exist!



The basis of the darksucker theory is that electric light bulbs suck dark. Take for example, the darksuckers in the room where you are right now. There is much less dark right next to the darksuckers than there is elsewhere, demonstrating their limited range. The larger the darksucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark. Darksuckers in a parking lot or on a football field have a much greater capacity than the ones in used in the home, for example.



It may come as a surprise to learn that darksuckers also operate on a celestial scale; witness the Sun. Our Sun makes use of dense dark, sucking it in from all the planets and intervening dark space. Naturally, the Sun is better able to suck dark from the planets which are situated closer to it, thus explaining why those planets appear brighter than do those which are far distant from the Sun.



Occasionally, the Sun actually oversucks; under those conditions, dark spots appear on the surface of the Sun. Scientists have long studied these 'sunspots' and are only recently beginning to realize that the dark spots represent leaks of high pressure dark because the Sun has oversucked dark to such an extent that some dark actually leaks back into space. This leakage of high pressure dark frequently causes problems with radio communications here on Earth due to collisions between the dark particles as they stream out into space at high velocity via the black 'holes' in the surface of the Sun.


As with all manmade devices, darksuckers have a finite lifetime caused by the fact that they are not 100% efficient at transmitting collected dark back to the power company via the wires from your home, causing dark to build up slowly within the device. Once they are full of accumulated dark, they can no longer suck. This condition can be observed by looking for the black spot on a full darksucker when it has reached maximum capacity of untransmitted dark... you have surely noticed that dark completely surrounds a full darksucker because it no longer has the capacity to suck any dark at all.



A candle is a primitive darksucker. A new candle has a white wick. You will notice that after the first use the wick turns black, representing all the dark which has been sucked into it. If you hold a pencil next to the wick of an operating candle, the tip will turn black because it got in the way of the dark flowing into the candle. It is of no use to plug a candle into an electrical outlet; it can only collect dark.. it has no transmission capabilities. Unfortunately, these primitive darksuckers have a very limited range and are hazardous to operate because of the intense heat produced.



There are also portable darksuckers called flashlights. The bulbs in these devices collect dark which is passed to a dark storage unit called a battery. When the dark storage unit is full, it must be either emptied (a process called 'recharging') or replaced before the portable darksucker can continue to operate. If you break open a battery, you will find dense black dark inside, evidence that it is actually a compact dark storage unit.


Stay cheerful,
Rich

 

Where you come up with some of the stuff you come up with is beyond me. Thanks for the belly laugh this early in the morning, Rich!! lol