I'm changing out the original front wheel bearings on my '86 XJ6 and suspect that I may have the wrong grease seal. My parts book calls the seal S6327. I couldn't find a cross reference for it but after looking at on line suppliers I came up with the number C18843. With this number my in town bearing shop gave me SKF 18565. This seal has the correct OD, it is slightly thinner at 0.313 inch compared to the original at 0.375 but I don't think that matters. The problem seems to be with the seal ID. The SKF data states the shaft size as 1.875 and the axel shoulder where it rides is measured at 1.925 inch. I could force it on but it seems to me that it would be too tight. Now that I have the original seal out the numbers on it are NTK 1265 / 250 / 193 / 37 which if I read it right would mean 2.5 inch OD, 1.93 inch ID and 0.37 inch thick and fits snug but not tight. If any one has done this job lately what seal did you use?

Barcho
'86 XJ6

 

Hi Barcho,
My parts book says #C45711 which might be the earlier number for the same thing or Jaguar may have made some kind of upgrade. I don't have my notes with me right now so I'm not sure which brand & # I used ( think it was Timken ), but I know I got mine from Rockauto along with Timken bearings ( actually made in USA, yay ! ). Check to make sure the inside bottom of the axles are not grooved by the inside bearing spinning round it. My '85 with only 38k had enough wear I decided to replace the stub axles while doing the ball joints and other bushings ( boots / rubber bits petrified from being parked 20 years ). I'm including two pictures to show what to look for, just remember the worst wear area is on the inside bottom. You can actually feel the groove, catch it with your finger nail if it is bad. One picture shows the old and new axles from the top - the black area is where it fits into the stub axle carrier, the plain area where the seal track goes is next, then you can see the burnished area from the bearing spinning, then a another plain area before my " T " for top. The other picture shows a closeup of the bottom inside with the worst wear.

top of both spindles

Bottom with grove



How much wear is too much ? Don't know, I decided not to risk it and since I already had it apart, why not go with new. I peened my new ones just slightly with a punch where the bearing race goes as well as using a little Loctite bearing retainer just to make sure.

I'll post tomorrow with the part numbers I used.

Happy New Year everyone !
Cheers !
Brian

 

When I rebuilt Nix's front suspension, I found grooved spindles like this, and mentioned off hand one day that I was thinking about affixing the inner races to the shaft so they Couldn't turn. therefore doing away with this problem.

A machinist with several decades' experience told me that these bearings are *Supposed* to spin on the shaft, although very, very slowly, in order to prevent brinelling. He advised a very light application of grease between bearing race and shaft upon re-assembly.
(';')

 

Hi again,
I could not find all my notes from the front suspension redo ( hope they aren't inside the redone IRS I just installed ) but found enough to jog my memory.
Everything Timken from RockAuto: Seals = 473454 (made in Taiwan), Inner bearings Set 13 (made in USA) ( aka A13 ), Outer bearings Set 12 (made in USA) ( aka A12 ).

My axle spindles were worn .001"+ on one side and .002"+ on the other, so enough that I decided to change them.

I test fit everything dry first to check how much play all the critical areas had. Both new bearings fit well on the new shafts but you could spin the inner races if you tried so I secured them as follows.
I lightly peened the axle with a spring / automatic center punch where the OUTER bearing mounted just enough to make it a snug hand press fit. I alternated punches on the top & bottom, left & right of the shaft so the bearing would stay "centered" with the axle ( over thinking things as usual but that's me ! )

I used just a little Loctite 641 Retaining Compound ( NO primer or activator ) on the INSIDE bearing to axle spindle area.
I de-greased and taped the inside of the bearing & axle mount area before packing with grease, then removed the tape and a final clean with swabs before assembling. The packed bearing has to be installed, the oil seal, then grease packed around the seal to bearing gap so I was very careful to keep the inside mounting areas of the bearing grease free. I put the Loctite sparingly on the shaft with a small brush then mounted and torqued the hub like Kirby recommended.

Hi Elinor, I think I remember seeing a post where you mentioned the machinist's opinion that the bearing races should spin, Kirby Palm also mentions this idea in his XJ-S book quoted below. I'm NOT a machinist or engineer but I can only see that being helpful for low speed bearings under heavy load or bearings that are not in constant motion, just pivot back and forth a few degrees etc. I'm with Kirby on this one, I'd rather have the bearings wear quicker & require earlier replacement than having to replace the axle spindles every 30k given what is involved in that job. I'm also including a section on the Jaguar XJ6 ROM Section 1 "General Fitting Instructions" where they say to use Loctite to secure the bearing if there is any evidence of spin / movement.

I would be interested in anything that explains or supports the spinning races idea. Always something new to be learned !

Happy New Year !
Cheers everyone !

Brian


From the Jaguar XJ6 ROM manual Section 1 General Fitting



From Kirby Palms "Experience in a Book: Help for the Jaguar XJ-S Owner"

FRONT AXLE WEAR:
The inner races of the inner front wheel bearings tend to turn on the axles. As a result, they eventually wear a groove in the axle, on the bottom where the load is. This allows the wheel to wobble even when the bearings are adjusted properly, and your Jag starts driving like a Pontiac.

To check for problems, remove the front hubs and check the stub axles for a wear groove. Run your fingernail along the bottom of the axle from the upright outward. If your fingernail catches at all, the axle should be replaced.

According to Richard Griffiths, the inner race is supposed to rotate on the axle. This distributes the wear evenly around the inner race rather than concentrating it on the bottom. “With proper lubrication, heat treat and tolerances etc., the effect of a "walking" inner race on the axle is a beautiful mirror-like burnished surface, not galling and wear as some have noted.”

Well, there’s little an owner can do about heat treat or tolerances, and on the XJ-S inner race rotation is clearly a problem -- and bearing wear is not a problem. So it makes sense to ensure that the inner races will not turn by using Loctite 640 or some similar high-strength bearing retaining substance. This may shorten the life of the bearing by some negligible amount according to some engineer’s theories, but in the real world it will positively eliminate the wear on the stub axle. Use it on the inner race of the outer bearing, too, since it has been known to have the same problem. Adjust the front wheel bearings as described below.

FRONT WHEEL BEARING ADJUSTMENT:
Section 60.25.13 of the ROM, Step #4, indicates that the front hub bearings should be adjusted to attain end float measurement of 0.002”-0.005” (0,05mm-0,15mm). However, Technical Service Bulletin 57-15 revised the end float spec to 0.001”-0.003”.

If you don’t happen to have the type of dial indicator needed to measure end float, this author recommends the following procedure: Tighten the retaining nut to perhaps 20 ft-lb while turning the hub to make sure everything is seated properly. Loosen the nut then spin it back on until it seats, normally a very distinct point; continue to tighten about 1/10 of a turn while turning the hub. Fit the lock and install the cotter pin.

This may seem tight, and in fact may be tighter than the official Jaguar procedure (measuring end play) would result in. Any bearing expert will tell you that proper operation of a roller bearing requires some preload. When tight, the weight of the car is distributed among the rollers. When loose, the slop allows the load to be taken by only one or two rollers at a time, and the unloaded rollers may slide rather than roll.

Another method that has been suggested is to tighten the nut to 25 ft-lb while rotating the hub and then back the nut off one flat.

If you’re using Loctite on the inner races as suggested above, you might opt to apply the Loctite to the inboard race, assemble, tighten the nut to 25 ft-lb while rotating the hub and leave it there long enough for the Loctite to set. Then pull the nut and outboard inner race back out, apply Loctite there, and then do your final assembly and adjustment.

Note that having the bearings adjusted too loosely -- as well as having a grooved front axle, as described above -- would be detrimental to seal life. And the seals on the ABS-equipped cars may be marginal already, as mentioned above.

 

My experience and practice coincides with Mr Palm's. Tapered Roller bearings are not meant to run loose or even neutral. They should always have a slight-to-appropriate preload on them (i.e. pinion bearings will have much more preload than a wheel bearing). The inner race and the spindle are both hardened steel and neither is designed to spin in contact with each other, either low speed or high speed. I suspect that if the wheel bearings were installed this way, you would see Jaguar's "spun bearings" drop to zero.

Dave

 

Yup! Always something to learn.
Mine with new hardened spindles will either last another 40 years, in which case I have no worries, or they'll either won't, in which case the car will probably have disintegrated into a pile of rust and I still have no worries.
(';')

 

Thanks for the helpful replies. I'm leaning to the advise of using Locktite to compensate for the shaft wear. There doesn't appear to be sufficient wear to warrent replacement at this time. My concern with the locktite is getting the inner race off later when eventually the brake disk will need to be replaced. I have some locktite 660 which according to their info should be ideal for this issue. In practice, the difficulty will be keeping the grease off the mating surfaces as pointed out in detail in above post. I'll post my results / impressions after I get it back together.
Thanks again;
Barcho
'86 XJ6

 

Well, I got the right seals from Timken (their number 473454) which has a different lip profile than the SKF ones that I was suspect of. They were a bit baulky to coax into the hub but slid over the seal surface on the shaft easily. The the wheel bearings are in, the inner race secured with locktite to compensate for wear on the bottom of the stub axle and the castle nut snugged up finger tight with a socket over the nut turned by hand. I was happy to find no movement at all in the 6 o'clock / 12 o'clock position while pulling and pushing on the tire. I won't be able to road test it untill April when winter subsides in my part of the world. I do however agree with others who posted that the correct fix is to replace the stub axles when worn, but I may have postponed that job by another 20 or 30 thousand kilometers.

Barcho