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Power loss/some oil smoke when going up hill (intermittent)...
This happened back in April, hasn't happened since:
Wife and I were on a trip, and we had to climb a long, steep grade. Car couldn't do it without downshifting out of third gear. Also was having problems keeping its speed up. I happen to look out the rear-view mirror and there's bluish-white smoke going out back. The car had been running for about 4 hours at this point so it was good and warm (and the day was warm, too).
This hasn't happened since, which is the weird part. And I've driven it on much hotter days since that day in April.
Here's what DIDN'T happen: misfiring, rattling, sputtering, hesitation, chugging, etc.
In other words, other than the speed loss and smoke, you couldn't tell anything was wrong. The car has 142k on the clock, and the previous owner included records of a head rebuild at 132k. Here's a direct quote from his notes as to what else was done:
"As part of head rebuild, gaskets, cam valve adjustment for valves to .012 to .014, valve inlet seals, valves lapped, head cleaned and surfaced (.026 removed), throttle body and intake cleaned, hose clamps replaced ...{{lots of other stuff here about paint/cosmetics/etc.}} ... head gasket with thicker gasket, brass plugs in air pump head exhaust ports, assembly lube used on cams and cylinders, valves cleaned, piston tops cleaned. Cam chain retension, idle set, timing set."
This is the one of only two running issues this car has had since I've had it. The other is sometimes (especially when cold), stomping on the gas just doesn't seem to produce much "go." Like the gas pedal's position change made no difference.
I'm in between about a half-dozen possibilities here. One is a general tune-up needed (maybe focus on the cap/rotor). The second is something to do with valve seals or (please, no) rings. I have not done a compression check. But I also have not seen any evidence of a head gasket failure -- no fluid cross-contamination, overheating issues, etc.
My findings over many years, and as many XK 6 cyl engines.
Head rebuild, for whatever reason, has the result in raising the comp slightly to moderately, as in the valves now seal better than before. This has the effect of "sucking" oil up past the rings.
Not fitting stem seals to the exhaust side is kind of normal on the XK engine, but I have always fitted them to both sides, and some odd niggling in the grey matter has me remembering Jag did fit them on the S3 engines, for tighter emission requirements.
The cam covers are FULL of oil when running, and if the oil cap is removed, most times oil will run out, so no seals, will have a heap of oil getting sucked through that area, and under acceleration and lower revs, as in your hill, is the precise conditions for this to occur.
Our S2 Daimler 4.2 did this for years, and I simply kept an eye on the oil level. The smoke was only when it was working HARD, and did alter with different brands of oil used, and NO I am not getting into an oil chat, but the El Cheapo oil was the least smokey of them all, and down here, way back then Valvoline XLD was the El Cheapo.
The lack of grunt cold, is maybe a flaky, or out of adjustment, Air Flow Meter, as in someone has fiddled with the clock spring wheel inside the black cover.
Or, timing could be retarded a tad, so a few degrees advance, and try it.
This happened back in April, hasn't happened since:
Wife and I were on a trip, and we had to climb a long, steep grade. Car couldn't do it without downshifting out of third gear. Also was having problems keeping its speed up. I happen to look out the rear-view mirror and there's bluish-white smoke going out back. The car had been running for about 4 hours at this point so it was good and warm (and the day was warm, too).
This hasn't happened since, which is the weird part..
To clarify....
On occasions before and after this incident you were able to climb the same hill more easily?
[/I]This is the one of only two running issues this car has had since I've had it. The other is sometimes (especially when cold), stomping on the gas just doesn't seem to produce much "go." Like the gas pedal's position change made no difference.
In addition to Grant's thoughts, perhaps the coolant temp sensor is flaky. This could result in a dead spot on a cold engine
I'm in between about a half-dozen possibilities here. One is a general tune-up needed (maybe focus on the cap/rotor). The second is something to do with valve seals or (please, no) rings. I have not done a compression check. But I also have not seen any evidence of a head gasket failure -- no fluid cross-contamination, overheating issues, etc.
Jess
As for the smoke.....
There might not be cause for any great concern.
Does the engine burn oil excessively and or emit smoke under everyday driving? If not, and if a compression comes out reasonably well, I wouldn't worry too much. The rings might be a bit worn....but that's not a sign of impending doom.
I've owned lots of cars with high-ish miles that would smoke a bit if 'given the boot',....especially if they had been driven gently for quite some time. My old 1987 Series III XJ6 certainly did.
Not billowing clouds, mind you. But you could see wisps of smoke in the rear view mirror.
A bit from the past, partly relevant, some not so much.
1. Valves seal well, rings not so much. High vacuum, sucks oil into the chamber and blue oil smoke exits the tail pipes.
2. Lolly gagging around gathers gunk in the chambers. Load plus lots of
throttle loosens it and it comes out the tail pipes as smoke. OK to an extent.
3. Do not "lug" the engine, shift down a gear or more if req'd.
Just fed Billy some green treats and extended his tether. More 'fresh" grazing, for him and more atmosphere friendly mowing for me. Win/win. oh yeah !!!.
Since there's a lot of good information being passed around, I'm going to respond to all questions in one post...
1) The smoke episode basically occurred over the course of one weekend back in March. We took the car on about a 1,000-mile cruise with StarQuest Club (the Mitsubishi Starion/Chrysler Conquest club I'm also a member of). The worst of the smoking came 5 hours into the drive up from our house to where the meet was being held. We started going up a long, semi-steep grade. We were going about 65 mph at the bottom of the hill. By the time we got to the top, we could manage only 50 mph or so and smoke was coming out of both tailpipes. I eventually had to shift down to 2nd gear to stop it from bleeding off speed. The smoke was bluish-whitish-grayish and the volume of smoke was quite significant. We encountered no more hills on the way up, and it didn't smoke again. We arrived at the hotel about an hour later and parked the car. The next day, we went on the cruise (called the Mountain Lakes Drive, which gives you some idea of the terrain) and for the most part, we did fine. Only on a couple of the biggest hills did we get smoke and it was nowhere near as bad as the day before, nor did we have the kind of speed loss we encountered the day before. It did seem to smoke just about any time I got past 80 mph. There were no strange sounds, chugging or bucking during any of the smoking episodes. Just speed loss and smoke.
2) Car uses a bit more oil than I'd like, but it has some surface leaks so I'm not sure how much of the consumption is coming from that. The PO did some modifications under the hood (like chrome valve cover nuts that don't seal up properly, thus leading to some surface oil on the valve covers every time I open the hood), and the rear main seal appears to weep a bit.
3) The car does not smoke on idle, not one little bit. (I wish my XJS V12 could say the same )
4) I can't say that I was able to climb the same hill better at a later date, because we have never been back over that same hill again. Right now, I can climb hills around my house fine -- but I haven't been driving for 5 hours at highway speeds before trying it, either.
5) Basically, aside from this car just feeling underpowered in general (especially compared to my XJS V12 or my XF), it runs great. Idles smooth enough. Purrs at cruise. I've made two fairly nice-length commutes this week (about 100 miles each), no issues. But they were both on completely flat land.
6) On the cold engine issue -- that happens regularly. Happened today. I turned from one street in my neighborhood onto another street, and at about 10 mph, I punched the gas. I made it all the way to 12 mph. I had to let off the gas and sort of ease into it to get it to accelerate. This problem largely goes away once the engine warms past about 140F.
7) One thing I forgot to mention -- this car has a modified air intake system. Looks like cold-air intake to me, and I'm attaching a picture so you can sort of see what I mean. I'm guessing most of the emissions equipment has been deleted or otherwise modified.
In summary, this car just seems to lack giddy-up under any circumstance, but once you get her over 50 or so and the land stays flat, you can run her up to a high cruising speed with no issues and the throttle is fairly responsive. You can't pull out and pass a long line of cars easily, though. I've never owned a 4.2L Jag sedan before, though, so I couldn't tell whether this was normal or not. My 0-60 times are well over 10 seconds.
On the other hand, she's super-reliable, and aside from that one weekend with the mystery smoke, she's the same car today that I bought a couple of years ago. Always cranks on the first shot. Always ready to go. Always idles smooth. Always cruises smooth. But she sure didn't like abrupt throttle changes or high-stress loads. And I've got to figure out that cold-performance issue.
to me, it sounds like coolant being burned in the combustion. Ideally, when it happens you might want to try and smell the exhaust to see if it smells like coolant.
My '65 S type was billowing lots of whiteish smoke through both tailpipes whenever I turned on the heater, and it stopped when I turned it off.
I replaced the heater valve and the problem stopped forever.
I notice in the picture the Alternator was relocated to the top and the Coil too. Great idea.
The OE had the snout of the intake poked down the side of teh radiator, and into the colder air out there.
These Pods, suck engine bay HOT air.
Remember, Hot air intake = economy, Cold air intake = Grunt. Manufacturers have played with that balance forever, then Bosch came along with an Intake Air Temp Sensor, so the computers took over the fueling, BUT, they can only trim the system so far.
My HE has the cold air "pick up" right out the front on each side, behind the indicator lamps, and that simple exercise DID make a difference to that beast, particularly on the highway.
These snaps are not good, but show the engine bay trunking on the Red Beast.
5) Basically, aside from this car just feeling underpowered in general (especially compared to my XJS V12 or my XF), it runs great. Idles smooth enough. Purrs at cruise. I've made two fairly nice-length commutes this week (about 100 miles each), no issues. But they were both on completely flat land.
Power-wise things might be as good as they'll get.
The car weighs about 4100 pounds empty, has only 170 horsepower, and a 2.88 differential. There just isn't a lot of giddy-up. Road tests of the day put 0-60 at about 11 seconds.
As for the smoke, well, I guess the best best to begin is a compression test and, possibly, a cylinder leak down test.
As for oil consumption and smoke, to give some reference or perspective, my old Series III used a quart of oil every 2500 miles, roughly. It only smoked if I had been driving gently (lolly gagging, as Carl mentioned!) for some period, like a couple weeks....and then really gave her the boot. I'd get some smoke as described earlier but then be smoke-free afterwards. Presumably some oil would accumulate and then tromping on the throttle cleared the combustion chambers.
Cold running problem. As a jumping-off point I'd check the coolant temp sensor with an ohm meter, if you have one. I can get the specs for you. Or, just replace it. Only about $25 and ten minutes to replace so, as guesses go, not painful. But I'd also check the base ignition timing just on general principles. If nothing improves we can keep digging
to me, it sounds like coolant being burned in the combustion. Ideally, when it happens you might want to try and smell the exhaust to see if it smells like coolant.
My '65 S type was billowing lots of whiteish smoke through both tailpipes whenever I turned on the heater, and it stopped when I turned it off.
I replaced the heater valve and the problem stopped forever.
I notice in the picture the Alternator was relocated to the top and the Coil too. Great idea.
Jose,
I can say with some degree of certainty that it wasn't coolant. I never smelled that telltale antifreeze smell, for one. Moreover, that's one area of a car I'm somewhat a lay expert on, thanks to my Starion/Conquest experience. The G54B engine Mitsubishi used eats head gaskets right and left (as in, you're lucky to get 30k out of even a factory setup, much less if you turn the stock turbo boost up at all), so I'm always looking for visual signs (cross-contamination of oil/water, overheating at highway speeds, white smoke out the back, etc.) and this car has none of that.
I *have* smelled unburnt fuel on occasion, and this car is only 10k miles into new injectors and injector hoses. This is especially a problem when cold, but occasionally comes up at the end of a long trip.
The OE had the snout of the intake poked down the side of teh radiator, and into the colder air out there.
These Pods, suck engine bay HOT air.
Remember, Hot air intake = economy, Cold air intake = Grunt. Manufacturers have played with that balance forever, then Bosch came along with an Intake Air Temp Sensor, so the computers took over the fueling, BUT, they can only trim the system so far.
My HE has the cold air "pick up" right out the front on each side, behind the indicator lamps, and that simple exercise DID make a difference to that beast, particularly on the highway.
These snaps are not good, but show the engine bay trunking on the Red Beast.
Honestly I'm not either and would not have made that modification had I been in charge of things. I've looked into what to do in its place, but there's been significant modification of the car already, so going back factory would be a chore if not outright impossible. I almost need to fit a bag around that air filter and then run a hose down to cold air.
As for the smoke, well, I guess the best best to begin is a compression test and, possibly, a cylinder leak down test.
As for oil consumption and smoke, to give some reference or perspective, my old Series III used a quart of oil every 2500 miles, roughly. It only smoked if I had been driving gently (lolly gagging, as Carl mentioned!) for some period, like a couple weeks....and then really gave her the boot. I'd get some smoke as described earlier but then be smoke-free afterwards. Presumably some oil would accumulate and then tromping on the throttle cleared the combustion chambers.
Cold running problem. As a jumping-off point I'd check the coolant temp sensor with an ohm meter, if you have one. I can get the specs for you. Or, just replace it. Only about $25 and ten minutes to replace so, as guesses go, not painful. But I'd also check the base ignition timing just on general principles. If nothing improves we can keep digging
Cheers
DD
Doug,
I've got to send her in as soon as I can get the XF out of the shop (regular brake pad service, nothing major) in order to get a manual valve put in the heater line so I can manually cut off hot water to the cabin. My Delanair system is being run by denizens of the planet Zoltan, I guess. When I put her in, I'll get that sensor replaced and have them do a general tune-up/inspection.
Not very good although a more precise measurement might be helpful. A two second difference/variance in 0-60 is huge
Under full throttle when does the transmission shift? I've driven some with out-of-adjustment transmission that shift way too early....under-utilizing what little power there is.
At full throttle the 1-2 shift should be at about 45-50 mph and the 2-3 shift at about 70 mph.
Back to ignition timing: if improperly set it'll cost you some power. Spec for yours is 17ºBTDC, vac hose disconnected and plugged. You can experiment a bit here; most people do.
Clogged catalytic converters are somewhat common on these cars
So it smoked again today. Here were the criteria that made it smoke:
* Engine at full running temp (95+ on the gauge. Less than 95, no smoke)
* Engine at 2,000 RPM or higher, getting much worse at 2,500 RPM or higher
* Pulling a load (i.e., under acceleration, or going uphill)
There was no loss of power. I think I've got an explanation for that problem, which is separate from this problem.
Anyway, I get it home and take it to my shop. We're talking through possibilities, and I open the hood and notice the dipstick has been pushed out, and there's oil all over everything. ESPECIALLY on and around the catalytic converter on the driver's side.
So our thought is when the motor is hot and under load, it's pushing oil out from around the dipstick, the oil is hitting the exhaust, and what I see as smoke out the back of the tailpipes isn't actually coming from the tailpipes, but from burning oil off the surface of the cats. I did notice that when I stopped at a red light, there were briefly some wisps of smoke coming out right under the doors.
This is typically caused by a bad PCV valve, but does a SIII XJ6 have one? On JagBits, there is no PCV valve listed, only an "engine breather" and affiliated parts. There is no PCV valve listed on RockAuto, at AutoZone or anywhere else.
At the front of the cylinder head is a round casting, 4 nuts, pipe attached to rubber boot. This is the breather cover.
Remove the breather cover. You'll then see the breather screen....probably gunked up. Clean the screen , rubber boot, and the pipe that goes down to the base of the throttle body
Order two new breather cover gaskets first ! One goes from the cover to the screen; the other from screen to cylinder head
10-11-2017, 01:10 AM
Power loss/some oil smoke when going up hill (intermittent)...
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