Hi all

My parking brake doesn't work, but it used to, I think the ratcheting mechanism has seized, I can see it, but for the life of me can't see how it works/accutes... Any advice on where I need to push or pull or spray oil? Or does it have to come off? Many thanks.

 

I have the IRS cage out and as for the park brake, mine were completely shot. As near as I can tell, when you pull on the lever, that should ratchet the pads, if they are still there, snug against the discs. If they do not ratchet, it may be the "ratchet nut" inside the brake is worn and no longer ratchets. I would say the easiest way to deal with these would be to remove them from the main caliber, which is do-able, but not easy, with the IRS in the car. There are a lot of experienced folks on this site so you will likely get many more responses. Good luck!

 

The ratchet and working innards of the parking brake calipers are enclosed by the caliper itself and a tin covering. Pretty much impossible, IMHO, de-seize them without removing the calipers.

In an oversimplified nutshell the calipers are removing by disconnecting the cable, removing the two hold-down bolts (two per caliper, that is), and rolling the calipers aft and downward. Oh...you'll have to remove the 'tie plate' from the rear suspension cage. As I recall it's 21 bolts holding it in place but it'll seem like 121 by the time your done removing all of them

Reinstalling the calipers is where the real fun begins. If you're a teetotaler, well, you'll be ready to throw a straw in a bottle of scotch by the time your done

Well, I'm elaborating a bit....but just a bit!

Cheers
DD

 

Crumbs alive... Thanks for the responses, I'll sleep on it...

 

Lots of these seize because so many people just never use them, the 'Park' setting on the transmission provides a parking brake of sorts. As Doug says impossible to free-up unless you strip the thing down. If you are going to fix them, don't use the rachet nuts again, as the ratchet serrations will likely be worn out where the adjuster pawl wipes over them. The handbrake caliper pivot pins also seize up because nobody lubed them at the factory.


Have a look at this: -


SNG Barratt - The Ultimate Jaguar Parts Specialist

 

I can not think of a better reason to switch to outboard brakes...not that difficult if you use XJ40 axle shafts and hub carrier. Sure there are a few more small issues to address BUT its a sure fire way to put an end to the problems that come from this inboard brakes "just like the race cars " foolishness, heat, handbrake, exhaust pipe rattles, pad changes etc. Lots of other benefits come from doing the switch.

Outboard brakes on Jag IRS - with photos | The H.A.M.B.

 

True enough, true enough.

But, OTOH, it's not like this sort of work is required very often.

Do the parking brake calipers and you're 'good to go' for many, many years. Same with the main calipers and rear rotors...especially since most of these cars no longer accumulate many miles. The only thing that might require more frequent attention....the rear brake pads....are a breeze to change. Pull two pins per brake and drop in new pads.

Get up early on a Saturday, drop the cage, replace calipers, rotors, pads, and overhaul the p-brakes....and you'll be done before dinner and not have to think about it again for 10 years. Ok, maybe a first timer will spend part of Sunday as well . But, for some, it's a less painful approach than sourcing parts and sorting the details of an outboard brake conversion.

Cheers
DD

 

You may have it all finished before noon...if everything goes well.. it usually does not ...wishful thinking..

 

I said done before dinner, not before noon ! Not even I'm that fast

Or possibly into the next day for a first timer.

But, we all choose our poison.

The ".... few more small issues to address..." you casually mention might be a bit of wishful thinking as well. Sure, not technically difficult, but requiring extra labor hours to sort out.

It might be interesting to track (or even estimate) the total investment in *labor hours and dollars spent* to do the conversion versus leaving the car as-is, assuming 15 years of ownership, pleasure driving, and the need for two brake jobs. My guess it that the conversion really doesn't pencil out.

Now, if the car was in regular use (say, 12000 miles/year) over 15 years and in need of several brake jobs, the conversion might well pay off.

*Personally* I think the conversion is a cool idea and I'd go for it myself if I had a donor car on hand to get all the stuff I need. Or buy a complete outboard brake IRS. I even considered it for my current Series III project but since it's totally optional and I'm limiting the project to $8000 total, the money and effort is better spent elsewhere at this point.

Cheers
DD

 

Aha, thanks for the replies! maybe I'll do it... They used to work, passed COR, but don't work anymore, I'm doing the rear pads at the moment.

 

Doug you forgot about the times a caliper seizes and needs replacement or the diff seals need replacing or the emergency brake bronze forks become damaged and need attention or the exhaust pipes that have been welded together and require a sawzall to cut them off (and then re weld them ) or the rotors that are worn out or the hand brake pad that came loose from its mounting plate or the over the axle pipe clanks against the caliper every time the car goes over a bump... etc. all need the cage removed as the easiest way, but you still need a level surface to jack the car up high enough to roll the cage out.

Besides most people on this board are not "rich elites" or connected to a shop their brother owns etc. and maybe do not have access to a shop with a hoist and air compressor for the air wrench rather, they are waiting for a nice day (on their day off) to jack up the car (high) in their driveway and prepare for some miserable time under the *** end of the beast doing this wretched work - rust and all. So it is not as simple as you make it out to be - wishful thinking (never mind if this happens to the Jag owner living in the cold winter cities,...ready to do that kind of work outside in the driveway after clearing the snow.?

Think it through from the perspective of other owners who might prefer to have the ability to jack up one side of the car remove the wheel and do the work Maybe then they can do it in a few hours ready for dinner ... but they will be thanking them selves for having the foresight to have made the investment into a more practical (for the average owner)rear braking system that saves time and effort.

Misinformation = lack of research.

No need to buy a complete car to get the complete cage..or an interest in Jaguar motors for special parts.. you just need the axle shafts and hub carriers with their rotors & calipers - from the diff out - (found on a XJ40) Vented rotors from X300 can be easily substituted for the solid ones the XJ40 has. The hub carrier fulcrum pin on the XJ40 is slightly smaller and will need small spacers to mate it to the lower arm and the hand brake cable to be connected to work properly. Otherwise bolts right up.

All parts are readily available in the junkyard ready to be refurbished and reused with new pads and U joints...then never worry again.

 

Rich elites has zero to do with it. Not sure why you are going there.

It's simply a matter of weighing expense and labor/effort against benefit.

Ease of future repairs is a valid consideration but let's keep it in perspective...and let's not pretend or mislead that the inboard brake set-up is SO awful that it requires constant attention. It simply doesn't. With new calipers, rotors, and pads the overwhelming majority of owners will get many many years of good service from the existing design. This has been proven many times.

IMHO the expense and effort of the conversion probably doesn't pencil out for a lot of people, given that these cars, in most cases, don't see that much driving any more. Yes, the outboard design makesa lot more sense but for some people sticking with the original set-up is a perfectly viable and acceptable way to go. The conversion might make sense for some people but not for others. I'm perfectly willing to accept that. How about you?

Seems to me that you are utterly disgusted that the inboard IRS even exists in life and have convinced yourself that it is an ugly festering sore that MUST be removed...and you won't be happy unless everyone dislikes it as much as you do.


Cheers
DD

 

Or, if it is too complex in either inboard or out board,
just whack the whole IRS out and hang a dependable easily serviced
Ford 9". Coils, the existing traction bar and add a sway bar.


Room for pipes, brake shoes and a working hand brake.
Oh, perhaps a Chev 12 bolt. Noty quite as easy to service
but the lug pattern is the same .


For everyday driving, just as good. Pressing, not so much.


Please detect the "strong tonque in cheek".


Carl .

 

How many of the same problems/complaints about outboard brakes have you taken note of ?

Has nothing to do with me it has more to do with you. Read about all the complaints regarding inboard brakes and related problems in this forum's archives, plenty.. converted (or factory) to outboard ...none

If people prefer laying under the car cursing the system that's OK with me but it will not be me doing that chore anymore. My concern is the misinformation you are putting out about how it does not "pencil" - it can not "pencil" because as I said in previous posts every ones situation is different. What are the individual's circumstances? What is their time worth ?what mechanical skills do they have? Where are they doing the work? But for those who want a permanent solution, have the tools and are mechanically inclined,..this is a low cost alternative. A mind is like a parachute it only works properly when open.

This is not an expensive exercise you just need to understand the problem at hand and how to solve it economically...research works..

 

Having owned an X300 Jag for many years, and many many other cars with outboard rear discs, I believe I am qualified to comment.

You may not believe this but the outboard discs/calipers often require service and replacement as well. Calipers leak or seize, pads wear out, rotors wear out. The "top hat" type parking brake shoes can wear out and/or come apart and the mechanisms can seize from lack of use. This often results in the disc being very difficult to remove.

Replacing the top hat parking brake shoes can be a little tricky as well...although obviously easier than the inboard set-up

But owning a car with outboard rear brake does actually require some labor to keep them in good order. Yes, less labor than inboard brakes, no doubt. But, here again, I drove my X300 for several years and 130k miles and replaced rear calipers and rotors once, and the rear pads twice. Whether I had to spend a total of 4 hours for the required work or 6 hours really isn't all that significant to me.

Now, my old Series III...my other long term Jag....I did the same work (with the cage in place) and spent a solid 8-9 hours doing so. That was in 1999 at about 75k miles. Last time spoke to the current owner, about 3 years ago, the car had 171k miles and the rear brakes were still working fine...although he did replace pads. At any rate, if I have to spend 8-9 hours on rear brakes every 10-15 years, it really isn't all that big of a deal to me. If I had to do it every couple years.....that would obviously be a different story.



People love to complain! But, in any case, the complaints are almost always from first timers who are a bit intimidated by the task at hand, understandably. But, as you very well know, many of the guys who have owned several Jags and been thru the drill realize it wasn't really all that bad and pretty much shrug it off. Look at how many Jag owners do NOT convert to the outboard brakes, even though they know it is a viable option. I think you'll find, in fact, that most owners stay with the original inboard set-up. Why? because they realize that, although a PITA the first time round, it really isn't all that horrible.


Right. Except complaints about the malfunctioning and/or seized top-hat parking brake.


What mis-information?

Here is what I **actually ** said:

"IMHO the expense and effort of the conversion probably doesn't pencil out for a lot of people, given that these cars, in most cases, don't see that much driving any more. Yes, the outboard design makesa lot more sense but for some people sticking with the original set-up is a perfectly viable and acceptable way to go. The conversion might make sense for some people but not for others"


I've merely said that that the conversion might be good for some, and not good for others. Is THAT what you call mis-information? Really? c'mon! Be reasonable




And I have said that the conversion might be a good idea for some people and not for others. So, we agree !





I certainly agree. My mind of fully open in these respects, for example: 1) the conversion may be a good idea for some people, as I stated outright earlier 2) Having worked on quite a few I understand that the inboard brake system is more labor intensive while at the same time understanding that the sky doesn't fall and the world doesn't end and, like anything, after the first time it isn't all that bad. 3) The conversion certainly makes future repairs easier. If THAT is a really big, really significant issue for the owner then, by all means, he should go thru the effort and expense to make the conversion 4) Some people are not all that concerned about how much effort will be required to do the next brake job.



I agree. But the conversion itself DOES require labor to expended and money to be spent and details to be worked out---all of which must be considered when balancing the scales and making the decision.


Oh, please. I have a full understanding of both inboard and outboard brakes. I've worked on plenty of both.

Assuming DIY labor...which I think is a given in this case since we're all hobbyists here.... the most economic way is to simply (and quite obviously) stay with the inboard brake set-up. Pads $50. Rotors $50 each. Calipers $75.00 each. The same as outboard brakes. No conversion parts to buy. Not a lot of research need to draw that conclusion !

If we're talking about paying retail labor rates at a repair shop then the entire landscape of the conversation changes.

 

If a person has the tools, ability, climate, and flat enough driveway to do the outboard brake conversion then he has the tools, ability, climate, and flat enough driveway to service/repair inboard brakes...wouldn't you say?




This might not be as powerful an argument as you hope. In most cases these Jags are hobby cars nowadays. The issue of having a brake job done before dinner probably isn't a big concern for most owners. But, yeah, if used as a daily driver and/or is an only car, it can be an issue, I agree.


Yes, I know, obviously. And I never said that it was required. However, my experience with various conversion projects over the decades is that having the donor car can be quite helpful when it comes to sorting out the details. The '....few more small issues...' which you glossed over



But for those not wanting to go thru that and who are not inordinately fixated about how much time they'll be spending on their next brake job 10-12-15 years down the road, there's nothing sinful about staying with inboard brakes.



Cheers
DD

 

Each to his own, different strokes for different folks, right?

Being a mostly broke student that enjoys working on his car, the inboards are staying, but that's just me

Getting rear pads in this country is proving a little tricky, one is right down th the metal...

 

Of course.

Alyn has made a very good case for those who want less labor to do a future brake job ....especially if it is done in the snow, one wheel at a time, on an uneven driveway, and when it must be done before dinner



No, not just you! You are by no means alone. Most people stay with the inboard brakes. Doing so isn't the worst thing that can happen, I assure you. But be prepared for some work!



Cheers
DD

 

Spirited discussions, love 'em!!! Kudos to the three of you.


My inboards are staying. Some time ago, both calipers developed leaks.
I admitted the obvious. Not up to dropping the cage or even
rassling the calipers out in situ. Working "down under" somewhat
feasible, The down and unders and out and ups, not so much!!!
Plenty of tools and space enough though!!! In the garage or in the drive, either one.


I farmed the job out. So, that part of the car, and maybe all of it
will out live me.


Conversions are fine with me. Done it with this and other critters over the years.


Hobby car vs daily driver. Oh, yes, a definite part of the equation.


A couple of decades ago, I tackled a weird brake job on my 69 Toyota
FJ40. Pulled the front hubs. to access the brakes. a weird arrangement. Something akin to very early MOPARs. Two cylinders, tend to stick with corrosion. Fording streams a fav cause....
The PO on this nice car was a fisherman!!!!


WOW, wheel bearing s fell out of the cage, just a tad of grease left.
No place for parts on this car on a Sunday PM!!! I'll need it to go to BART in the AM!!! Put the rollers back in the cage and put on a lot of long fiber grease to hold them in place, sorta. Put it back together.
Not far to the station, no freeway. OK there and back for a few days til parts arrived and the weekend came. Fixed it right then.


Another time, messing with the carb on my ABC lumped 56 ***** 4x4 pickup. would not idle down. again, Sunday PM!!! Car needed in AM for BART trip!!! Almost dark I found it. the throttle butterflies were loose. Teeny bolts gone!!! Some one failed to pin them. Fortune!!!
I found some... In my odd lot boxes. Only the primaries involved. fixed. Peened well this time....


I said, but did not heed, "gotta stop this last minute stuff".


Carl

 

Last minute stuff, you're not alone Carl, sunday PM is when parts are always needed haha!

Brake pads arrive today, looking forward to it!

Cheers.