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It has taken some time, but the reason for the engine being seized has been diagnosed now. I now have some decisions to make, and hopefully this forum can advise me.
Background: I have a red pre-HE XJS built in 1978. It has 24,000 miles on the clock (genuine). My father in-law bought it from new and when he passed away, I then took it over. It has been garaged all its life. Inside it looks like he just drove it in the garage and left the keys in. It has not left the garage since the early 1990s. Engine was working fine when he mothballed it. No obvious rust anywhere. I remember sitting in it when he drove it in 1985 and being pushed back in the seat with the seat with the acceleration.
Now the problems. He started doing various bits of work on it in the early 1990s, including removal and complete overhaul of rear transmission, cleaning and powder coating of all metalwork underneath. He also played with putting a body kit on (not completed) but I have found all the original bumpers he took off.
AFAIK, the one thing he did not do was start the engine periodically. So this year when I tried to start it, the engine was seized. Damn! After attempting the usual list of remedies, I sent the car to a local chap who repairs E-Types and XJS cars (there is not much he does not know about these).
He has removed and stripped the engine.
Diagnosis: Pistons seized to liners. Timing chain fine. Oil pump seized. Needs new crank/conrod bearings, brake fluid reservoir, exhaust manifolds possibly (can re weld), thermostat cover, engine gaskets, engine head set, steam cleaning of all parts, etc.
Front and rear shock absorber bumper fittings need to be fitted (sawn off when he tried to fit the body kit).
Bodywork needs a t cut and a small area resprayed on the passenger door. Obviously new tyres since the current ones are over 25 years old. The spare is actually the original spare.
Current state of car is as last photo set.
My choices to make…….
1. Sell car in current state with engine removed and disassembled.
2. Spend minimum amount of money to get car back on road, then sell for profit (may not be any).
3. Ignore the cost and just spend thousands on it and keep it for sentimental reasons. Possible. If I had the time and space to store it, I would love to drive it again.
Doug, thanks for your thoughts. The work so far has all been done by one chap. His charges are very reasonable and would be less than a typical garage. He has given me a figure of a few thousand pounds to do the job.
Trouble is, I just don't know what this car would be worth if sold with an MOT and sold as a basic runner.
If you can somehow find some money, the answer is definitely not 1., it must be 2. or 3.!!
As you probably know, pre-HEs are arguably the most collectable XJS right now in the UK with prices moving accordingly. (and of course, I have a vested interest with my own 79 red pre-HE!!)
I know it's all money and effort but you have the basis of a REALLY good early XJS there with seemingly very good bodywork and interior. Those original pics seemed to show that many of the external engine components were in really good condition and, with the engine, now out, you have a great opportunity to clean up and have a beautiful engine bay.
I'm not sure there's going to be a huge difference in the cost of getting the engine finished and car assembled to MoT pass level, compared to finishing the car really nicely. And fully finished cars always make significantly more money than "project" cars.
If you've got a good competent and reasonably-priced guy working on the car, and you've got a very sound body and that good interior, you'll definitely be on the right side of the money at the end. A few magazine articles published with all the photos that you'll undoubtedly take, and you'll have a very saleable vehicle!
Good luck with your decision. Drop me a line if you want to chat XJSs sometime.
Thanks for the advice Paul. My gut feeling is that it would be a shame NOT to rebuild the car. I was thinking about dropping a second hand replacement engine in, but that would mean no more matching numbers (and it would not have done 24,000 miles). There is no immediate time pressure to get it done, so I will do some more research and make a decision shortly.
Look's like I am on a journey, but the photos will all be useful milestones to show someone.
If you decide to sell:
I do not think the task of getting the engine running again is that huge a task, as it is already stripped. All parts are available, liners particularly if needed, so it is essentially an assembly job, now the engine is out of the car. Oil pumps frequently come up on ebay, and anyway yours might just need a strip and lube. Everything else you mention is very straightforward, but electrical ignition and injection items may be a challenge once the engine is mechanically OK. Equally all that side may be fine after a clean up.
That looks to me like a superb timewarp car, and I am sure you would recoup your investment up to the engine running stage. A good body, which you have, is FAR more important than mechanics. So I would for sure go to the engine running stage before contemplating selling. Then I would test the market engine-running, no MOT, and then have a think and a discussion with your guy about what the MOT stage would require.
Going from a running engine car to an MOT is a larger step than you might think, as you may need shocks, discs, calipers rebuilding, for sure tyres, etc etc. I would budget about 3000 quid to get from engine running to MOT.
Keeping the car
Now as to keeping the car, obviously great fun and a lovely thing to dream of; BUT, if you decide to keep it, in my view you MUST be able to look after the car and do all the required mechanical work yourself. You do not have to know how to do that now, that is what the forum is for. Loads of people on here have made that journey with tremendous success. You do need access to some covered workspace; but if you keep the car and cannot do work on it yourself, the costs will be prohibitive.
Good luck, that looks to me to be an absolute gem.
A 1978 pre HE survivor in that condition in the UK would be a rare thing indeed.
If it were mine I'd be keeping it and if you have a reasonably priced Jag specialist fixing it is a no brainer. Another option if you could find one would be to buy a rusty but running XJ12 engine donor.
BTW my 1978 XJ-S is exactly the same red and the body is pretty much the same condition wise. The incomplete V12 was beyond me so it got sold off and will be replaced with something more common.
If it were me, I'd source a low mileage HE engine and 700R4 transmission and convert it.
The problem with that is that in the UK, the correct original engine and running gear is essential to make the car valuable. As the OP said, without the numbers matching body and chassis, the classic market in the UK does not want to know.
Rust-free Pre-HE? Low mileage? One family ownership?
No brainer... figure out how to keep it and restore to original. Start learning how to do some of the work yourself (we're here to help) and you'll find it even harder to let it go.
Definitely restore. The worst bit is done getting the engine out and stripping it down. In my opinion the fun part is getting it sorted and putting back together. If this was mine I would definitely do all the work I could do myself. Nothing is particularly hard as long as you are methodical and can follow the workshop manual. I rebuilt my Triumph Stag V8 and found it very rewarding.
Rob.
Wow, many thanks for all your words of wisdom so far. Just returned from work so going through them all.
The theme therefore is keep the car and rebuild it to a drive-able state. I guess that's the answer I probably wanted anyway.
I am seeing my mechanic chap on Sunday - we are going to a Jaguar car spares day so we can have a chat then!
Regarding space to keep it when it is done - well that may be an issue. However, Greg, we have plans on moving to France in maybe 12 -18 months time. All I really want are outbuildings for cars and my workshop - the house is secondary.
The space is required for the other Jaguars (XK8 - same family ownership from new since 1996 and low mileage, E-type and Mk2 currently in storage both needing a little work, XKR is a luxury). I won't worry about how to get them all over there, paperwork and RHD issues just yet.
So I will get in to the details with my mechanic on Sunday and go from there.
I have dug out some of the original paperwork and documents. Photos below. The Repair Operation Manual is from 1975. I love the overlay transparencies of the engine, showing all the different layers.
Personally I'd go with keep, Greg's comment re originality and matching numbers matters here in the UK. That said take a look at that panel near the damper - it looks like it is bulging in the image above, if so it shouldn't be like that - if it is that needs fixing before the engine goes back in. Had I known the path that I was setting off down I wouldn't have, but I'm glad I did - partly - but it has bitten deep into the finances - and I do everything myself. I think you need to be honest with yourself what this car means to you because it is a commitment but you are in the position of owning the car, all you need to put in is the money to fix, with the matching numbers on the car it's hard to see how you will lose your shirt on it.
There's nothing you can't learn to do, it can be stressful and frustrating, but also rewarding.
Greg's comment re originality and matching numbers matters here in the UK.
They matter everywhere, not just the UK.
As the XJS moves from 'cheap used fun' to collectable classic it will only become more important. Which will happen much faster in the UK and the rest of Europe, since the overwhelming majority of the production went to the States. I wish we had the ability like you do in the UK to see how many of a particular model are still on the road, I'd love to know how many XJS's are being taken off the road annually here, or are sitting un-used and unseen in garages around the country.
[QUOTE=BenKenobi That said take a look at that panel near the damper - it looks like it is bulging in the image above, if so it shouldn't be like that - if it is that needs fixing before the engine goes back in.
Well spotted and that will need investigating before you put the engine back as said. I had to cut out and repair both sides on my car. It’s a known problem area
In our shop we frequently encounter situations where the cost of repairs will exceed the RETAIL value of the car. We recognize that in many cases the car has sentimental value to the owner. We no longer try to discourage the owner from repairing the car. If it has sentimental value repair it. The XJS is a remarkable car and should give you many years of great service and pleasure. The emotional value cannot be measured in money. It's value i n its current condition is minimal. Keep it.
Obviously only you can answer your question. Remember its only money and you don't live forever. Doubt you can find another 1997 Jag with low milage
stated at any price. The sentimental attachment has some value.
If you decide to keep the car just go for it. Try to minimize your cost. You may be better off exchanging the engine for a rebuild rather than overhauling the original engine.
If you decide not to spend the money I would just sell "AS IS" and not take the loss by just getting it running.
Good luck. Remember opportunity goes knock not knock knock!
10-17-2021, 01:16 PM
1978 XJS: sell as is (or do engine rebuild)
