1987 XJS Convertible - Good deal or not?
#1
10-19-2012, 11:35 PM
1987 XJS Convertible - Good deal or not?
Greetings folks,
I have an opportunity to buy a 1987 XJS H and E Convertible for $4,000. Haven't actually seen nor inspected the car yet, but planing on viewing this Sunday.
Here's some details of the car:
- 1987 XJS HE Convertible 12 cyl.
- 79,000 miles
- Based on the owner, all original except paint
- Newer tires with roughly 10k on them
- The car was apparently repainted and is now red. Paint is starting to web and crack and will most likely need to be taken down to metal, blocked, and repainted.
- Interior: Owner states that it's all original (even the stereo) but stitching on the seats are coming apart and will need new covers. Both fronts.
- Power top works, but there was apparently a rip about 2" that needed to be restitched
- All glass and chrome in good shape and intact
- Gauges: Since this car has 2 tanks, one of the gauges doesn't work. Owner states that it's possibly a sensor gone bad. Some TLC on instrument cluster needed.
- Fog lamps not working (possibly bad contact), Cruise control not working, AC not working.
- Owner states that motor is strong and he's been running 93 octane. The car is actually not with the owner but at a Jag/Porsche shop. Spoke to the shop owner and he stated that they test drove a week ago and the motor cut out about 15 minutes into the drive. This has been a bit concerned!
Although I've restored a few muscle cars, this will be my first Jag. From what i've read, the v12 is not cheap nor easy to diagnose and fix correctly.
Some questions for those of you that are more familiar and experienced:
1. I fully understand that Jag did NOT make a convertible in 1987 and that they sourced out to HE. Since the HE plant burnt down, there is no record of how many convertible's were made. WIKI states about 897. Is this correct? Also, how collectible do you think this car is?
2. Based on what was described above do you think this car is worth $4k?
3. Based on what was described about the car, what sort of numbers/nightmare am I looking at to have this car restored completely?
4. Any pitfalls I should be aware of?
5. Is there a VIN decoder available? Sorry, I just hoped onto this forum and haven't searched the threads yet.
6. How do I determine if it is an HE car?
Any advice/input greatly appreciated!
I have an opportunity to buy a 1987 XJS H and E Convertible for $4,000. Haven't actually seen nor inspected the car yet, but planing on viewing this Sunday.
Here's some details of the car:
- 1987 XJS HE Convertible 12 cyl.
- 79,000 miles
- Based on the owner, all original except paint
- Newer tires with roughly 10k on them
- The car was apparently repainted and is now red. Paint is starting to web and crack and will most likely need to be taken down to metal, blocked, and repainted.
- Interior: Owner states that it's all original (even the stereo) but stitching on the seats are coming apart and will need new covers. Both fronts.
- Power top works, but there was apparently a rip about 2" that needed to be restitched
- All glass and chrome in good shape and intact
- Gauges: Since this car has 2 tanks, one of the gauges doesn't work. Owner states that it's possibly a sensor gone bad. Some TLC on instrument cluster needed.
- Fog lamps not working (possibly bad contact), Cruise control not working, AC not working.
- Owner states that motor is strong and he's been running 93 octane. The car is actually not with the owner but at a Jag/Porsche shop. Spoke to the shop owner and he stated that they test drove a week ago and the motor cut out about 15 minutes into the drive. This has been a bit concerned!
Although I've restored a few muscle cars, this will be my first Jag. From what i've read, the v12 is not cheap nor easy to diagnose and fix correctly.
Some questions for those of you that are more familiar and experienced:
1. I fully understand that Jag did NOT make a convertible in 1987 and that they sourced out to HE. Since the HE plant burnt down, there is no record of how many convertible's were made. WIKI states about 897. Is this correct? Also, how collectible do you think this car is?
2. Based on what was described above do you think this car is worth $4k?
3. Based on what was described about the car, what sort of numbers/nightmare am I looking at to have this car restored completely?
4. Any pitfalls I should be aware of?
5. Is there a VIN decoder available? Sorry, I just hoped onto this forum and haven't searched the threads yet.
6. How do I determine if it is an HE car?
Any advice/input greatly appreciated!
#2
10-20-2012, 09:31 PM
1. My father was one of the engineers who designed the H&E. He personally feels the estimate of numbers made is closer to 2000. I have seen that number or 800-900 kicked around before and feel it probably represents numbers of '87s or '88s with the total being double that.
If you are interested, here is a thread with some of my dad's anecdotes about designing the XJ-S H&E:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...ertible-75595/
In general, the XJ-S is not a 'collector's' car. That's not to say they aren't very nice, and can represent a heck of a car for their price. It certainly is a large improvement over the E-type as far as performance and being a driveable vehicle, and better than the Mercedes convertibles of its era as well. But buy it for what it is and don't expect to make any money off it.
From an aesthetics standpoint the H&E looks better than the factory convertibles, because it has a 'low stack' that folds into the body. But the factory cars don't have the fuel system complications and some of the one off work that can make certain repairs interesting (quarter windows, weather stripping, etc.). Take your pick.
2. No. You can find H&Es that are in much better shape for that price. Based on what you described, he should be giving it away. My wife would love you if you bought mine for that price. Respray will run you $2000-$5000. Leather repair at least $1000 most likely more from what you describe. Wood interior rework $500-$1000. And we haven't even touched the mechanicals.
3. Yes plenty. Especially given that you stated the motor cut out. Grab Kirby Palm's 'Experience in a Book' off the internet and read over the parts about what to look for in a used Jag. There's also a sticky on what to look for in used XJ-Ss in this forum.
4. See above. Also, the H&E has an unusually complicated fuel system due to Jaguar's requirement for a 'low stack' coupled with an unwillingness to fund an extensive redo to the fuel system. It usually can be sorted fairly easily, but the fuel gauge was unreliable to start with and is surely inoperative on most cars at this point. Sometimes you hear stories of H&Es that will literally bleed gas when the tanks are filled up, so I would fill it to the brim and ensure it isn't leaking fuel.
5. There are several out there, I believe jag-lovers has a good one.
6. Well if it's an '87 and a convertible, it most likely is an H&E (factory convertibles started in '89); although of course it could be a chop shop one off.
Originally there would have been an H&E badge behind each front wheel, and a sticker placed below the VIN badge on the driver's side lower A pillar saying the car was modified by Hess & Eisenhardt. Both of these could have been removed in a respray though and not replaced.
H&Es came with a nice supplement to the owner's manual printed in a similar font and color. This could have been lost over time though.
Biggest giveaway is only the H&Es have a 'low stack' top that folds into the body cavity. The area where the top folds into is where the fuel tank is on a base XJ-S; I doubt any chop shop one offs would have done such a significant redesign to allow a low stack (later factory models did not). Also has a nice leather 'bath tub' in the luggage area behind the driver's seat that holds the speakers and the top folds behind, as well as a very nice stainless luggage rail and a metal plate saying the cargo area is not for passengers. There should be four window rocker switches, one for each to include independent controls for each quarter window.
Hope that helps!
Cheers,
- Will
If you are interested, here is a thread with some of my dad's anecdotes about designing the XJ-S H&E:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...ertible-75595/
In general, the XJ-S is not a 'collector's' car. That's not to say they aren't very nice, and can represent a heck of a car for their price. It certainly is a large improvement over the E-type as far as performance and being a driveable vehicle, and better than the Mercedes convertibles of its era as well. But buy it for what it is and don't expect to make any money off it.
From an aesthetics standpoint the H&E looks better than the factory convertibles, because it has a 'low stack' that folds into the body. But the factory cars don't have the fuel system complications and some of the one off work that can make certain repairs interesting (quarter windows, weather stripping, etc.). Take your pick.
2. No. You can find H&Es that are in much better shape for that price. Based on what you described, he should be giving it away. My wife would love you if you bought mine for that price. Respray will run you $2000-$5000. Leather repair at least $1000 most likely more from what you describe. Wood interior rework $500-$1000. And we haven't even touched the mechanicals.
3. Yes plenty. Especially given that you stated the motor cut out. Grab Kirby Palm's 'Experience in a Book' off the internet and read over the parts about what to look for in a used Jag. There's also a sticky on what to look for in used XJ-Ss in this forum.
4. See above. Also, the H&E has an unusually complicated fuel system due to Jaguar's requirement for a 'low stack' coupled with an unwillingness to fund an extensive redo to the fuel system. It usually can be sorted fairly easily, but the fuel gauge was unreliable to start with and is surely inoperative on most cars at this point. Sometimes you hear stories of H&Es that will literally bleed gas when the tanks are filled up, so I would fill it to the brim and ensure it isn't leaking fuel.
5. There are several out there, I believe jag-lovers has a good one.
6. Well if it's an '87 and a convertible, it most likely is an H&E (factory convertibles started in '89); although of course it could be a chop shop one off.
Originally there would have been an H&E badge behind each front wheel, and a sticker placed below the VIN badge on the driver's side lower A pillar saying the car was modified by Hess & Eisenhardt. Both of these could have been removed in a respray though and not replaced.
H&Es came with a nice supplement to the owner's manual printed in a similar font and color. This could have been lost over time though.
Biggest giveaway is only the H&Es have a 'low stack' top that folds into the body cavity. The area where the top folds into is where the fuel tank is on a base XJ-S; I doubt any chop shop one offs would have done such a significant redesign to allow a low stack (later factory models did not). Also has a nice leather 'bath tub' in the luggage area behind the driver's seat that holds the speakers and the top folds behind, as well as a very nice stainless luggage rail and a metal plate saying the cargo area is not for passengers. There should be four window rocker switches, one for each to include independent controls for each quarter window.
Hope that helps!
Cheers,
- Will
Last edited by macboots; 10-20-2012 at 09:46 PM.
The following users liked this post:
ykjag (10-21-2012)
#3
10-21-2012, 02:35 PM
Will. Thanks very much for the detailed response and thanks for sharing your fathers insight with HE - great read!
Jaguars are virgin territory for me as I am predominantly into american muscle. The HE convertible peaked by interest because A) they were so inexpensive, and B) the limited production run of the car.
Just looking for a new toy/light project, but based on your input, I'll most likely pass on the Jag that I was considering. Again Thank you for that insight!
Jaguars are virgin territory for me as I am predominantly into american muscle. The HE convertible peaked by interest because A) they were so inexpensive, and B) the limited production run of the car.
Just looking for a new toy/light project, but based on your input, I'll most likely pass on the Jag that I was considering. Again Thank you for that insight!
1. My father was one of the engineers who designed the H&E. He personally feels the estimate of numbers made is closer to 2000. I have seen that number or 800-900 kicked around before and feel it probably represents numbers of '87s or '88s with the total being double that.
If you are interested, here is a thread with some of my dad's anecdotes about designing the XJ-S H&E:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...ertible-75595/
In general, the XJ-S is not a 'collector's' car. That's not to say they aren't very nice, and can represent a heck of a car for their price. It certainly is a large improvement over the E-type as far as performance and being a driveable vehicle, and better than the Mercedes convertibles of its era as well. But buy it for what it is and don't expect to make any money off it.
From an aesthetics standpoint the H&E looks better than the factory convertibles, because it has a 'low stack' that folds into the body. But the factory cars don't have the fuel system complications and some of the one off work that can make certain repairs interesting (quarter windows, weather stripping, etc.). Take your pick.
2. No. You can find H&Es that are in much better shape for that price. Based on what you described, he should be giving it away. My wife would love you if you bought mine for that price. Respray will run you $2000-$5000. Leather repair at least $1000 most likely more from what you describe. Wood interior rework $500-$1000. And we haven't even touched the mechanicals.
3. Yes plenty. Especially given that you stated the motor cut out. Grab Kirby Palm's 'Experience in a Book' off the internet and read over the parts about what to look for in a used Jag. There's also a sticky on what to look for in used XJ-Ss in this forum.
4. See above. Also, the H&E has an unusually complicated fuel system due to Jaguar's requirement for a 'low stack' coupled with an unwillingness to fund an extensive redo to the fuel system. It usually can be sorted fairly easily, but the fuel gauge was unreliable to start with and is surely inoperative on most cars at this point. Sometimes you hear stories of H&Es that will literally bleed gas when the tanks are filled up, so I would fill it to the brim and ensure it isn't leaking fuel.
5. There are several out there, I believe jag-lovers has a good one.
6. Well if it's an '87 and a convertible, it most likely is an H&E (factory convertibles started in '89); although of course it could be a chop shop one off.
Originally there would have been an H&E badge behind each front wheel, and a sticker placed below the VIN badge on the driver's side lower A pillar saying the car was modified by Hess & Eisenhardt. Both of these could have been removed in a respray though and not replaced.
H&Es came with a nice supplement to the owner's manual printed in a similar font and color. This could have been lost over time though.
Biggest giveaway is only the H&Es have a 'low stack' top that folds into the body cavity. The area where the top folds into is where the fuel tank is on a base XJ-S; I doubt any chop shop one offs would have done such a significant redesign to allow a low stack (later factory models did not). Also has a nice leather 'bath tub' in the luggage area behind the driver's seat that holds the speakers and the top folds behind, as well as a very nice stainless luggage rail and a metal plate saying the cargo area is not for passengers. There should be four window rocker switches, one for each to include independent controls for each quarter window.
Hope that helps!
Cheers,
- Will
If you are interested, here is a thread with some of my dad's anecdotes about designing the XJ-S H&E:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...ertible-75595/
In general, the XJ-S is not a 'collector's' car. That's not to say they aren't very nice, and can represent a heck of a car for their price. It certainly is a large improvement over the E-type as far as performance and being a driveable vehicle, and better than the Mercedes convertibles of its era as well. But buy it for what it is and don't expect to make any money off it.
From an aesthetics standpoint the H&E looks better than the factory convertibles, because it has a 'low stack' that folds into the body. But the factory cars don't have the fuel system complications and some of the one off work that can make certain repairs interesting (quarter windows, weather stripping, etc.). Take your pick.
2. No. You can find H&Es that are in much better shape for that price. Based on what you described, he should be giving it away. My wife would love you if you bought mine for that price. Respray will run you $2000-$5000. Leather repair at least $1000 most likely more from what you describe. Wood interior rework $500-$1000. And we haven't even touched the mechanicals.
3. Yes plenty. Especially given that you stated the motor cut out. Grab Kirby Palm's 'Experience in a Book' off the internet and read over the parts about what to look for in a used Jag. There's also a sticky on what to look for in used XJ-Ss in this forum.
4. See above. Also, the H&E has an unusually complicated fuel system due to Jaguar's requirement for a 'low stack' coupled with an unwillingness to fund an extensive redo to the fuel system. It usually can be sorted fairly easily, but the fuel gauge was unreliable to start with and is surely inoperative on most cars at this point. Sometimes you hear stories of H&Es that will literally bleed gas when the tanks are filled up, so I would fill it to the brim and ensure it isn't leaking fuel.
5. There are several out there, I believe jag-lovers has a good one.
6. Well if it's an '87 and a convertible, it most likely is an H&E (factory convertibles started in '89); although of course it could be a chop shop one off.
Originally there would have been an H&E badge behind each front wheel, and a sticker placed below the VIN badge on the driver's side lower A pillar saying the car was modified by Hess & Eisenhardt. Both of these could have been removed in a respray though and not replaced.
H&Es came with a nice supplement to the owner's manual printed in a similar font and color. This could have been lost over time though.
Biggest giveaway is only the H&Es have a 'low stack' top that folds into the body cavity. The area where the top folds into is where the fuel tank is on a base XJ-S; I doubt any chop shop one offs would have done such a significant redesign to allow a low stack (later factory models did not). Also has a nice leather 'bath tub' in the luggage area behind the driver's seat that holds the speakers and the top folds behind, as well as a very nice stainless luggage rail and a metal plate saying the cargo area is not for passengers. There should be four window rocker switches, one for each to include independent controls for each quarter window.
Hope that helps!
Cheers,
- Will
#4
10-21-2012, 08:25 PM
Wow, that's hubris for you.
This car ticks off every single one of the "don't buy" issues - bad paint, bad leather, electrical issues, engine issues, it even needs a new top. AND the seller is asking mid-to-top dollar for it.
You can find a coupe with literally NONE of these issues for that money. If you're dead set on a convertible, look to spend $5K for one with good paint, good interior, good running, good electrics. If you haven't found one at that price with everything in good order, you will. Keep looking.
Run away.
This car ticks off every single one of the "don't buy" issues - bad paint, bad leather, electrical issues, engine issues, it even needs a new top. AND the seller is asking mid-to-top dollar for it.
You can find a coupe with literally NONE of these issues for that money. If you're dead set on a convertible, look to spend $5K for one with good paint, good interior, good running, good electrics. If you haven't found one at that price with everything in good order, you will. Keep looking.
Run away.
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ykjag (10-23-2012)
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