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It could also be the Sump Tank is Full of Crud and needs Cleaning, including the 'Sock Filter' underneath the Cap of the Sump Tank
Before you even attempt to take the Lid off or even disconnect it, make sure you Clamp the Pipe from the Main Fuel Tank, as the Sump Tank is Gravity Fed and you could easily Flood the Whole of Boot/Trunk with Gas
The Sump Tank is under the Battery, so disconnect and remove the Battery, before you do anything else
This is where you find the Sump Tank, including the Lid that needs to be Carefully Tapped round with a Piece of Wood on the end of a Hammer (To prevent any Sparks)
There is also a Drain Plug underneath the Sump Tank, which is accessed from underneath the Car and so its best to drain it before you remove the Sump Tank itself
The only problem being that the Drain Tap almost never lines up with the Hole it goes through, so you may have to loosen the Bolts that Hold it down to move it around
The Tap just needs a Socket Wrench to undo it, as it really doesn't look like a Normal Tap
It could also be the Sump Tank is Full of Crud and needs Cleaning, including the 'Sock Filter' underneath the Cap of the Sump Tank
Before you even attempt to take the Lid off or even disconnect it, make sure you Clamp the Pipe from the Main Fuel Tank, as the Sump Tank is Gravity Fed and you could easily Flood the Whole of Boot/Trunk with Gas
The Sump Tank is under the Battery, so disconnect and remove the Battery, before you do anything else
This is where you find the Sump Tank, including the Lid that needs to be Carefully Tapped round with a Piece of Wood on the end of a Hammer (To prevent any Sparks)
There is also a Drain Plug underneath the Sump Tank, which is accessed from underneath the Car and so its best to drain it before you remove the Sump Tank itself
The only problem being that the Drain Tap almost never lines up with the Hole it goes through, so you may have to loosen the Bolts that Hold it down to move it around
The Tap just needs a Socket Wrench to undo it, as it really doesn't look like a Normal Tap
I was thinking the same thing on this sump tank. Something that seems odd is that I tapped the side of the sump tank with th the handle of my screw driver to see whether or not is sounded full. It actually sounded empty. I was just wondering because when I took that hose off of the fuel filter and got that burst of compressed air followed by a trickle of fuel, that the pump may be sucking air. I do have plenty of fuel line clamps so, I will attempt to drain the sump and replace that sock inside.
I have a theory. When I took the fuel pump off to replace it a couple of days ago, I noted that the negative female connector was VERY loose, and came off easy. I used my needle nose pliers to crimp it to "tighten" it on the new pump. I'm going o put the old pump back on and see if it works now. Maybe it was just shorting, and the new pump has reversed poles. IDK. Worth a try.
Since you're going that far, then you may as well take the Sump Tank out and Clean it and while I know its a PIA, if you leave it and don't do it now, it may come back to bite you sometime later
Because you don't want the Engine Cutting out on the Highway as happened to me, when the Alternator Belt Broke and knocked out the Crank Sensor
I have tested the fuel pump. It appears to be wired correctly and works. I replaced the fuel filter in the trunk (not sump). When I removed the fuel pump, I didn't tighten the fuel clamp completely and got a gush of fuel from the sump so, it appears to be working. However, no start. I pulled the relay again and noticed a wire missing for post 87 (middle) of the relay. I don't see any loose wires around that area so I am not sure what that goes to.
Have a Look at this Video on Page 141 of my 'Cherry Blossom Restoration Blog' (also page 140)
This is on my AJ16 4.OL Engine but the principle is exactly the same for the 5.3L V12
Where I disconnected the Fuel Supply to the Fuel Rail and then I pushed the pipe inside a slightly larger tube, where once having done so, I then hung it over the Side of the Fender/Wing (having first pulled the King Lead out of the Dizzy) to make sure She didn't try and Start
Now when I Crank her on the Key, there is loads of Fuel being Pumped out and this is exactly what you want to see!
If that isn't happening, there is ZERO Chance that She will Start and so it would be pointless exploring other Avenues until that has been Sorted
No Point in having a Spark without any Fuel to Ignite
Fuel Pump Relay
Main Relay
Fuel Filter (Maybe Blocked or Put on the Wrong Way Round) that can sometimes happen but everyone's a lot more 'Street Wise' Now
Blocked Filter in the Sump Tank (Worth a Clean even if you don't replace it)
Sump Tank Full of Crud, you would be Surprised how much gets in there
Internal Leaking Diaphragm in the Fuel Pressure Regulator
Try some of that and then let us know what happens
For Test Purposes ONLY if you Connect the Orange Wire of the Fuel Pump Relay to Ground then the Pump Should Run Continuously
Have a Look at this Video on Page 141 of my 'Cherry Blossom Restoration Blog' (also page 140)
This is on my AJ16 4.OL Engine but the principle is exactly the same for the 5.3L V12
Where I disconnected the Fuel Supply to the Fuel Rail and then I pushed the pipe inside a slightly larger tube, where once having done so, I then hung it over the Side of the Fender/Wing (having first pulled the King Lead out of the Dizzy) to make sure She didn't try and Start
Now when I Crank her on the Key, there is loads of Fuel being Pumped out and this is exactly what you want to see!
If that isn't happening, there is ZERO Chance that She will Start and so it would be pointless exploring other Avenues until that has been Sorted
No Point in having a Spark without any Fuel to Ignite
Fuel Pump Relay
Main Relay
Fuel Filter (Maybe Blocked or Put on the Wrong Way Round) that can sometimes happen but everyone's a lot more 'Street Wise' Now
Blocked Filter in the Sump Tank (Worth a Clean even if you don't replace it)
Sump Tank Full of Crud, you would be Surprised how much gets in there
Internal Leaking Diaphragm in the Fuel Pressure Regulator
Try some of that and then let us know what happens
For Test Purposes ONLY if you Connect the Orange Wire of the Fuel Pump Relay to Ground then the Pump Should Run Continuously
That will be my next move. As of now, I have replaced the Fuel Pump Relay and the Main relay from my other 1989, that I just drove so I know they are good.
I tested the fuel pump this morning - GOOD
Fuel filter replaced this morning, arrow going the correct way.
Fuel filter replaced this morning, arrow going the correct way.
Did save the old one?
Empty the contents of the old filter into a clear, clean container and/or actually cut the filter open. What you see, or don't see, can be very revealing
Empty the contents of the old filter into a clear, clean container and/or actually cut the filter open. What you see, or don't see, can be very revealing
I DO have power to one pin in each of the connectors for both coils when key is turned to position 2. No spark from the HT lead from either coil when cranking.
Last edited by Childeric12; 08-26-2024 at 07:10 PM.
(1) Even if you have No Spark, you really, really, need to do the Pipe over the Fender/Wing 'Thing' in other words nail the procedure down one Step at a Time, or you will be for ever retracing your steps
(2) No Spark! Could be something wrong inside the 'Dizzy' Burnt Contacts or signs of Arching
Any Signs of Arching could be pointing to a 'Marelli Fire' especially if you have 'Cats' as you almost certainly do
So if you ever lose Power when driving and the Car seems to be running on Only one Bank of Cylinders then, it's best you Stop Driving before She Catches Fire!
No exaggeration here, as there will be a Gallon of Fuel collecting in the Muffler of the Bank that has Stopped Working, where just one Spark and it could be Game Over!
Usually caused by Bad Maintenance, where someone of maybe even a 'Shop' couldn't be bothered to renew the Spark Plugs under the Aircon Motor
(2) No Spark in your current Situation could and most probably is down to the 'Crank Sensor' underneath the Fan Pulley having the wrong gap, as this is the one that (broadly speaking) Controls the ECU and lets it know when to Fire the Injectors
First Job give it a Clean with Electrical Contact Cleaner (or Carb Cleaner)
Inspect it for damage and even more importantly Check the Gap! any wider than 0.042 and you will be wasting your time! the Injectors won't Fire! and so the Gap needs to be less than 0.042 not really helped by the Bracket that Holds it not wanting to Adjust!
Its quite possible but unlikely to be the Rear Crank Sensor, as the Front one is much more exposed to Flying Debris etc
It could also be a Bad Coil (or connected up wrong)
The Red one is the Lower one and Controls 'A' Bank
The Yellow one is the Upper one and Controls 'B' Bank
Get these the Wrong Way round and She Won't Start!
(3) Could be the White Shielding Wire where it splits near the Inlet Manifold (its just a piece of Coax nothing Special)
This goes to Pin 24 in the ECU and is only Earthed at the ECU End (NOT BOTH ENDS!)
(1) Even if you have No Spark, you really, really, need to do the Pipe over the Fender/Wing 'Thing' in other words nail the procedure down one Step at a Time, or you will be for ever retracing your steps
(2) No Spark! Could be something wrong inside the 'Dizzy' Burnt Contacts or signs of Arching
Any Signs of Arching could be pointing to a 'Marelli Fire' especially if you have 'Cats' as you almost certainly do
So if you ever lose Power when driving and the Car seems to be running on Only one Bank of Cylinders then, it's best you Stop Driving before She Catches Fire!
No exaggeration here, as there will be a Gallon of Fuel collecting in the Muffler of the Bank that has Stopped Working, where just one Spark and it could be Game Over!
Usually caused by Bad Maintenance, where someone of maybe even a 'Shop' couldn't be bothered to renew the Spark Plugs under the Aircon Motor
(2) No Spark in your current Situation could and most probably is down to the 'Crank Sensor' underneath the Fan Pulley having the wrong gap, as this is the one that (broadly speaking) Controls the ECU and lets it know when to Fire the Injectors
First Job give it a Clean with Electrical Contact Cleaner (or Carb Cleaner)
Inspect it for damage and even more importantly Check the Gap! any wider than 0.042 and you will be wasting your time! the Injectors won't Fire! and so the Gap needs to be less than 0.042 not really helped by the Bracket that Holds it not wanting to Adjust!
Its quite possible but unlikely to be the Rear Crank Sensor, as the Front one is much more exposed to Flying Debris etc
It could also be a Bad Coil (or connected up wrong)
The Red one is the Lower one and Controls 'A' Bank
The Yellow one is the Upper one and Controls 'B' Bank
Get these the Wrong Way round and She Won't Start!
(3) Could be the White Shielding Wire where it splits near the Inlet Manifold (its just a piece of Coax nothing Special)
This goes to Pin 24 in the ECU and is only Earthed at the ECU End (NOT BOTH ENDS!)
Yes, I am all too aware of the Marelli failure. Fortunately, it has never happened to me!! (Fingers crossed, and regular preventative maintenance) Hopefully, it never will! The dizzy cap is new, so are each of the HT leads and spark plugs. I did all that myself, including the illusive front two. The previous owner was an elderly man and he had been trying to track down an engine miss. He was a retired aircraft mechanic, but was too old, or just didn't want to do the work himself. So the first thing I did was to replace those items (except the coils). Interestingly enough, the spark plugs on the A bank were not even finger tight! A rodent had discovered that under the A/C compressor is apparently like the South of France in rodent world, and decided to build a little house there. It must have peed in that area quite a bit, because spark plug 2A was rusty and frozen in place. I had to put a pipe on the end of a 3/4 inch drive wrench to get that plug to break free. I thought I would have to helicoil it afterwards, but it didn't take the threads with it. After that, she ran as smooth as silk. The coils are wired correctly, however there is no spark coming from their HT leads. So, either both coils are shot, or they aren't getting the signal they need. My money right now, is on the crank sensor. Only problem is the car is currently parked in my driveway backed up a slope. I am not sure how I will safely get under there to check it. I will keep everyone posted as to what I find. Hopefully, I can just clean it with carb cleaner. I appreciate everyone's help on this!!
If that isn't working properly, it won't send a message to the ECU as to when to fire the Injectors (Cheap enough to replace)
To Test it use 'The Paper Clip Trick'
Basically you just Bridge the Terminals on the Plug to the Water Temperature Sensor with ('A Paperclip!) or a piece of Wire to Fool the ECU in to thinking that the Engine has reached Operating Temperature (So it doesn't for instance Over Fuel the Engine)
If that isn't working properly, it won't send a message to the ECU as to when to fire the Injectors (Cheap enough to replace)
To Test it use 'The Paper Clip Trick'
Basically you just Bridge the Terminals on the Plug to the Water Temperature Sensor with ('A Paperclip!) or a piece of Wire to Fool the ECU in to thinking that the Engine has reached Operating Temperature (So it doesn't for instance Over Fuel the Engine)
Could it be that the Slope is part of the Problem!
It does sound like a very Steep Slope, that could lead to Fuel Starvation and all sorts of other problems
Maybe getting it level is all your need to do
If it were me I'd find a way to get her back in the Garage if your garage is big enough
Alex
It really isn't a steep slope. It is just pointed down so the rear is a little higher. I could wedge the rear wheels and jack up the front and put ramps under the tires to get under the car (and I may do that). I'm just trying to think of ways to safely get under to clean that sensor or replace it. Again, the car only has 36,000 miles and has always been a garage queen. She sat for at least 14 years in an aircraft hanger. I tis amazing to see all the stuff under the hood, and in various places like tags left by the original builders, etc.... All that said, I am going to try cleaning that sensor first and see if that gets me anywhere.
Try Cleaning the Resistor Pack on Page 11 of my 'Cherry Blossom' Restoration Thread as this can play Havoc with the opening of the Injectors
Though if that doesn't work and you get underneath, 'Just for Fun' measure the Gap on the Crank Sensor although I do have a Horrible Feeling that it could be the Injectors but lets hope not
Try Cleaning the Resistor Pack on Page 11 of my 'Cherry Blossom' Restoration Thread as this can play Havoc with the opening of the Injectors
Though if that doesn't work and you get underneath, 'Just for Fun' measure the Gap on the Crank Sensor although I do have a Horrible Feeling that it could be the Injectors but lets hope not
I'm really REALLY close!! I got an inspection camera and mirror and looked at the Crank Sensor - covered in oil. She had previously been leaking oil from the front before I put her in storage. I had sealed all the oil leaks and tried to clean off the oil as best I could, but it still had some in hard to reach places. I hit the sensor, as best I could, with degreaser/carb cleaner, without getting the car in the air. I went and cranked her over, and she tried to start!! It's the closest I have been in two days! If I could just get her to run enough that I could move her up the driveway and into the garage, I could do a thorough cleaning of that sensor and/or replace it. The battery is getting weak, so it is charging at the moment and I will let the undercarriage dry a bit, then I will try it again.
Last edited by Childeric12; 08-27-2024 at 11:09 AM.
As you've surmised, if you've got no sparks at the Coil, it's an electrical spark problem and nothing to do with Fuel Pump, Filter, Injectors etc etc. (Unless you simultaneously introduced 2 problems, which is unlikely.)
The only you might have now is wet plugs from the attempted starts.
Let's hope that your CPS cleaning resolves the electrical problem. (I would check the spark at the coil before finally trying to start it again) In the meantime, if you're bored, you could pull as many plugs, look at the state of them, and clean them if they've been fouling up from the cranking. You might also want to spin the engine over with the plugs removed to clear the combustion areas.
Think about tying a 'Toothbrush' (Not Yours obv's) to the end of a Long Pole and then you can keep doping it with Carb Cleaner and then use a Compressor to Blow off any 'Crud' and dry it all off
If you get her running then I would leave the Gap alone, namely because its a PIA to Adjust 'So if She's running then She's running, so probably best to leave well alone'
08-26-2024, 05:49 AM
