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I know there are lots of threads about this already, figured one more couldn't hurt...
It's been hot here. NYC traffic, in that, I am not comfortable driving ol Cherry Pie. She hasn't over heated but gets hot. Yesterday was about 90degrees. Drove about 9 miles on the highway and the the needle just came to the low end on N on the dial... Got off highway to B2Bumper and the needle slowly crept up to just at, then above N.... Turned off car to run in a wine shop, came back and started the car. Needle WELL above N, equally between N and H... Started driving, bumper to bumper and the cooling system could not recover. Needle stayed above N,,, (12inch fan running full blast)
I can't take it any more.
I'm looking at this fan. I like the cost, and size, and that it's two speed, and that it draws 24amps, and MOSTLY that the fan motor is made by Bosch... Then, there is a prob style sensor for speeds. Then (and I'm wondering what folks think) this electrical connection and wiring set up kinda pre made? Or should I just make something up?
I'm a bit intimidated... I want to get the OE shroud out and see what it looks like. I'm thinking I will keep and use the smaller 1/3rd shroud and eventually get a stronger 12inch fan. Sooner than later actually. But completely remake (to the best of my ability) a new shroud out of sheet for the larger 2/3rd section and the 17inch fan... The fan claims it has a shroud surrounding the fan itself. I want to get the new fan as close as possible to the finz of the rad.
Should I pull the trigger and get the fan?
The pre-made wiring set up?
Have you done any cooling system work? An electric fan may help, but it’s not going to solve a clogged radiator or leaves between the condenser and radiator.
Have you done any cooling system work? An electric fan may help, but it’s not going to solve a clogged radiator or leaves between the condenser and radiator.
SPOT ON.
Efans, I have fitted many, are USELESS if the cooling system is not up to snuff.
Stats, 82C with bleed hole, AND the correct length.
Cleaned, inside and out radiator.
Front lip spoiler intact CORRECTLY.
Foam insulation fiasco in the trans tunnel is NOT blocking exit air flow.
Pressure cap on the header tank is in good condition and blowing off within spec.
Banjo bolt and air bleed pipes are NOT clogged, common as mud.
All mine ran the 85C OE temp switch in the water pump inlet to thermo control the RH fan, with the LH being A/C compressor powered only. Never had issues, ever.
These fancy controllers are too unreliable, and cannot survive the V12 engine bay temps for too long, been there, oops.
JJJ
I completely agree with the previous two posts. I would suggest that first you invest in a remote temp sensor and get accurate readings. Such as one of these:
On my car the difference in the water temp, measured at the radiator inlets, between below the N and halfway up to the H is 5 degrees C. So your "overheating" may not be as serious as you think. If your car has a good fan clutch and a good radiator, the factory system will be fine. So halfway to the N is not necessarily dangerous.
Why the water temp on start up after a hot run is high, is because all that stored heat in the block goes into the uncirculating water. In slow moving traffic the factory system does take time to reduce water temps, which is worrying for the driver but not in itself dangerous as long as they do not go up!
My hard won experience is that anything but SPAL is a waste of time and money, and I very strongly suggest you do not buy something cheaper. Setting them up properly is quite a bit of work; but cooling in traffic will be more effective once they are set up properly. Having said that the OEM setup will be fine if 100%, and is a LOT less work to get and keep right. My experience is that:
The fan needs to be as close to the rad as possible, NOT further away than an inch, if you use the OEM shroud decent bracketry fan-to-shroud must be made up and careful trial and error mounting and adjustment to get the required gap is needed
You need a 16/17 inch one drawing at least 25 amps for the main fan and an 11 or 12 SPAL to replace the OEM electric. Squeezing them in is not straightforward so measure carefully before buying, a slight overlap onto the side tanks does not matter. I siamesed the plastic outside shrouds on my two fans to squeeze them in, I do not use the OEM shroud, as the fans come with their own - as long as they are mounted near enough to the rad.
The fans must not be more than 4.25 inches deep at their deepest point (back of the motor hub to front of the fan).
You need dedicated wiring and heavy duty relays (70 amps I use) to switch the fan, plus a manual switch in the cabin
In normal automatic mode only the Grant Francis fan control system works properly - forget the aftermarket controllers they cannot live with the V12 heat
You need to rig up a fast idle air inlet to come on with the fan, as 25 amps at tickover will kill the battery pretty quickly without it
You must fit a 115 mp alternator if your car still has the 75 amp one.
You need to rig up a cabin "fan on" warning light.
So seeing if your OEM setup is dead right before jumping to a main electric is worth doing first!
Fan must be close to the radiator, this requires reliable adjustable bracketry Two separate relays, one for the cabin switched circuit, one for the automatic switching circuit. Dedicated fuse box for the warning light, cabin switching circuit etc Dedicated fuse box for the high current circuit switched to the fans by the 70 amp relays
Last edited by Greg in France; 08-01-2022 at 08:54 AM.
Stats are new (right ones pinz on top) water pump was replaced when I first got to the car some years ago, coolant is new (40/60% water) and have had multiple complete flush-ez (car had sat for 12yrs)... Fan is new,,, clutch has never been replaced... Clutch firms up completely when hot. The atmospheric tank is working. The reservoir has been replaced with a clean new old one and flows well. Rad removed and completely cleaned when I got her. Temp sensor has also been replaced and new wiring run.
The car has never overheated. On a cool day system works beautifully. Needle will stay below the N as long as the car is moving. On highway,,, perfect...
I will NOT (cannot) drive this car in this town (NYC) on a hot day anymore or in highway traffic on a beach day (always miles of stop and go traffic)... That kind of worry kills the joy.... It's the bumper to bumper traffic that is a killer. Saturday it took me 45min to move 1/2 ah mile. The car was toooooo hot.
I thought folks used aftermarket electric fans,,, no?
Y'all know I have 4 cars that are all a work in progress, so forgive my not remembering... I believe I've updated the alt to a 120/115... I know that basically with everything on, voltages stay normal. No lower than 13.4-5... cCharging system is good BUT if need be I will up the amps with a new alternator...
Greg, your instruction on the depth of the fan caught my eye. I'm going to have a closer look at that spec if I go forward.
Yes, when you are driving, the fans are irrelevant. You're pushing more air above 20mph than the fans ever could.
Stop and go traffic, on the other hand, requires the fans, and they need to be up to snuff.
In your case, you noticed a rise after parking. In that case, there is no air (you are parked) and the engine is a giant heat source. Best is a fan that runs for 5 or 10 minutes after you shut things down. Timer/Relay helps here.
One of the things I used to do in Texas was crack the hood open when parked. This gave a place for the hot air to escape, and limited the heat soak.
I had the yellow fan and cooling system was ok, but what the heck. Have the 120 alternator, so I installed the Derale 16016 (16"). Fits just right in the existing fan shroud. Wiring was pretty simple. Ran a line to one of the always hot studs at the firewall and put an inline 30 amp fuse per the instructions. Its a push or pull, so you gotta make sure the wiring is set for pull. I ended up using temp sensors from American Volt, instead of the 180 one provided im the kit, but I forget the temp range - will check when I'm at the Jag.
I'm currently cleaning up the wiring to move the fuse into an empty slot I have in one of the boxes on the B fender well.
Eye candy...
^^^DO NOT install like this!!! Lower radiator hose, please ^^^Lower radiator hose install
^^^DO NOT install like this!!! Lower radiator hose, please
I had the yellow fan and cooling system was ok, but what the heck. Have the 120 alternator, so I installed the Derale 16016 (16"). Fits just right in the existing fan shroud. Wiring was pretty simple. Ran a line to one of the always hot studs at the firewall and put an inline 30 amp fuse per the instructions. Its a push or pull, so you gotta make sure the wiring is set for pull. I ended up using temp sensors from American Volt, instead of the 180 one provided im the kit, but I forget the temp range - will check when I'm at the Jag.
I'm currently cleaning up the wiring to move the fuse into an empty slot I have in one of the boxes on the B fender well.
Eye candy...
So, it it - better? The same? Worse?
I live in NYC and unless I am on the highway and out of town I am ALWAYS in stop and go traffic. I'm learning, for more than one reason (get excruciatingly hot in car sometimes) what I have with the mechanical fan, over time due to heat, it's doing real harm to everything under the hood. I need to do this.
Yes, when you are driving, the fans are irrelevant. You're pushing more air above 20mph than the fans ever could.
Stop and go traffic, on the other hand, requires the fans, and they need to be up to snuff.
In your case, you noticed a rise after parking. In that case, there is no air (you are parked) and the engine is a giant heat source. Best is a fan that runs for 5 or 10 minutes after you shut things down. Timer/Relay helps here.
One of the things I used to do in Texas was crack the hood open when parked. This gave a place for the hot air to escape, and limited the heat soak.
Yeah, I've cracked the hood, even stood there with it wide open after the bumper to bumper days. I've also removed the rubber strip at the back of the engine bay so when running air will move better, maybe...
Not trying to be a wise ***,,, but I know all that (and many of the balanced opinions folks have put forth) and I am grateful. I hear ya.
I think my set up as is is as good as it's going to git...
I am at the point of needing and wanting a guide in my project because I'm doing this. I have to.
There is another thread where the guy has the same fan I'm looking at (I believe it was 17in). I liked the idea of stuffing the 17 inch, after trimming some bits, to get it right into the existing shroud. I have to go back and see if it's the 17. Anyways, if it possible, I want to modify the existing shroud (or be forced to make a new one) because the OE shroud/fan carrier is like 2 or 3 inches from the back face of the rad. I want it closer and sealed a little tighter (unless I hear that having the shroud seal tight doesn't matter or it can actually make things worse).
I think I can bend up a some sheet and make this work. The electrical directions don't seem to crazy. I just gotta get to it. That and,,, spend some money.
Yep - shoulda posted the results too It works great. Consistent cooling, comes on exactly as expected. When super hot (like it always is here in Austin, TX ~100F+), it'll run about a minute after shutdown. I do have a battery cut-off switch in the trunk, if I ever worry about it running the battery down. I have a temp gauge mounted on the A-bank coolant line (until I replace with a digital sender that will shoot all the sensor readings to my phone), so I can check at least after a hard run and during idle to make sure the fan kicks on as expected.
I also have coolant filters on both upper hoses (one to cover the mistake on my first attempt to rush install of the temp sensor) and I have the aux fan replacement from jag-improver that I'm about to drop in.
I'll post more pics in a bit after running the kids around...
This could save you a lot of Time and Trouble, as well as a Shed Load of Money! and if you want a bit of Provenance, this was 'Greg's' idea!
Go to the Junk Yard or Ebay and get yourself The Twin Fan Set Up out of an XJ40 about $50-$60
These are the Real Deal Spall Fans as approved by 'Greg' and they come in their own Shroud and fitting them is dead easy
(1) Remove Existing White/Yellow Mechanical Fan
(2) Remove OEM Fan Shroud
(3) Make up 4 Brackets which I modded out of Angle Brackets from a Hardware Store
(4) Hang the XJ40 Fan Shroud with their Two Spall Fans from 2 of those Brackets that I Hooked over the Pegs on Top of the Rad and then use the other 2 Brackets to Support the Bottom of the XJ40 Shroud
(5) Steps back in Amazement at just how easy that was!
(6) Wire them up in whatever way you want to
In the end I took them out because they made the Car sound like a demented Sewing Machine but with the ICE turned up to the Max, you might not even notice
This could save you a lot of Time and Trouble, as well as a Shed Load of Money! and if you want a bit of Provenance, this was 'Greg's' idea!
Go to the Junk Yard or Ebay and get yourself The Twin Fan Set Up out of an XJ40 about $50-$60
These are the Real Deal Spall Fans as approved by 'Greg' and they come in their own Shroud and fitting them is dead easy
(1) Remove Existing White/Yellow Mechanical Fan
(2) Remove OEM Fan Shroud
(3) Make up 4 Brackets which I modded out of Angle Brackets from a Hardware Store
(4) Hang the XJ40 Fan Shroud with their Two Spall Fans from 2 of those Brackets that I Hooked over the Pegs on Top of the Rad and then use the other 2 Brackets to Support the Bottom of the XJ40 Shroud
(5) Steps back in Amazement at just how easy that was!
(6) Wire them up in whatever way you want to
In the end I took them out because they made the Car sound like a demented Sewing Machine but with the ICE turned up to the Max, you might not even notice
Yes that's True I took them out because I didn't like the Noise but if you go for Electric Fans like you said you were thinking of doing, then that's possibly the sort of sound that you are going to get
No, I know. That line - my earlier post - stating that folks were using aftermarket fans - was more along the lines of responding to what seemed like some advising against the idea of me going in the direction of electric fans... The tone sounded less than encouraging...
Anyways. I've read quite a bit about the Derale Fans. Lots of folks use them in lots of applications in different kinds of hot rods, even heavy trucks. I know it seems boneheaded but 80 or 90 bucks matters for me and my pocket. All reviews are good that I've read so I think I'll go in the direction of Derale, for now.
Greg (all) I'm wondering what y'all think of the Derale Fan and the built in 2 speed set up? I'll post the directions as per Derale. Seems pretty straight forward. Rather than the push in probe/sensor style temp control, I like the OE sensor just under the pump.
As promised, more info I said I'd post...
1. The electric fan I have is really quiet
2. Running a 200F on and 185F off temperature switch (this thread looks to be moving towards adjustable temps, multi-speed which probably has different sensors)
3. I have a temp gauge hacked onto the rear of the A-bank coolant pipe (looks great, but not super functional as you need the hood open to see it, but that's another thing I'm working). In any case, after hard runs or a couple of minutes idle here in TX at 110F, that gauge reads right around 205, give or take. The aux fan usually kicks on first, and then you can see the primary fans kick on right as that rear gauge tops 200. When I shut the Jag off, you can watch the fan run and it'll shut-off after about 30 seconds to a minute - the thing to note here is that temp gauge still reads pretty high - makes sense to me with the temp switch at the front, away form the engine, and right under a fan that it cools quickly whereas that rear gauge is right where all the heat is.
I could go on talking about this in my case as I've been slowing chasing the hot start issue, but shut-up and more pics please
200/185 ON/OFF temperature switch Temporary temperature gauge on A-bank coolant line Where I want to put the B-bank temperature sender, but that comes when I finish getting the sensors readings to my phone and/or tablet Kinda nice to be able to see the coolant start flowing (usually the coolant filter is totally full of coolant, but I'm in the process of flushing the system when I took these)... A-bank coolant filter - it's much easier to see with the box air filter housing...
As promised, more info I said I'd post...
1. The electric fan I have is really quiet
2. Running a 200F on and 185F off temperature switch (this thread looks to be moving towards adjustable temps, multi-speed which probably has different sensors)
3. I have a temp gauge hacked onto the rear of the A-bank coolant pipe (looks great, but not super functional as you need the hood open to see it, but that's another thing I'm working). In any case, after hard runs or a couple of minutes idle here in TX at 110F, that gauge reads right around 205, give or take. The aux fan usually kicks on first, and then you can see the primary fans kick on right as that rear gauge tops 200. When I shut the Jag off, you can watch the fan run and it'll shut-off after about 30 seconds to a minute - the thing to note here is that temp gauge still reads pretty high - makes sense to me with the temp switch at the front, away form the engine, and right under a fan that it cools quickly whereas that rear gauge is right where all the heat is.
I could go on talking about this in my case as I've been slowing chasing the hot start issue, but shut-up and more pics please
200/185 ON/OFF temperature switch Temporary temperature gauge on A-bank coolant line Where I want to put the B-bank temperature sender, but that comes when I finish getting the sensors readings to my phone and/or tablet Kinda nice to be able to see the coolant start flowing (usually the coolant filter is totally full of coolant, but I'm in the process of flushing the system when I took these)... A-bank coolant filter - it's much easier to see with the box air filter housing...
Ha! Damn Man... Thanks for all the pics, and...
I have a comment or two, and they ain't exactly positive, just things I noticed... constructive stuff.
About the silicone filled thermometer, I've heard that once the unit gets hot they can't give an accurate reading because the consistency or the viscosity of the fluid changes so dramatically.... Is the display separate from the electrical reader, or is the display and dial what informs the digital aspect of the guage? I've also heard tell that the air going thru the intakes cools the intakes - supposedly making them significantly cooler than the surrounding metal... Are the thermostatic sensors that ya have what's being used to trigger the fans?
I intend on keeping my direction, in the direction of super simple with all this - in that I will aim for the most basic but functional electrical cooling fan and control set up that I can find OR is suggested. A mishap in setting all this up could be a BIG one.
Again, not trying to be a wise ***, but thems the questions that came to mind from the info ya laid out.
One good thing is that I dug thru my Rock Auto recipes and it looks like I upgraded may alternator. Shweeeew. Don't need any extra expenses, at all. Goodness knows
08-01-2022, 07:14 AM
1990 Jaguar XJS - Electric Cooling Radiator Fans
