'86 5.3 HE Engine EFI 12-stack project
#22
12-22-2013, 10:39 PM
Hi Cal,
I'm not sure what car you are putting the 6.8 in.
I see on that thread you are still trying to figure out the intake.
The car has a lot to do with what you can do, obviously.
I was hoping you had it running, but if not maybe I can help there.
On Greg's project he might not have the restrictions if it's not a Jag for instance.
Like this '36 Chevy pickup, I have a lot of latitude there.
I'm not sure what car you are putting the 6.8 in.
I see on that thread you are still trying to figure out the intake.
The car has a lot to do with what you can do, obviously.
I was hoping you had it running, but if not maybe I can help there.
On Greg's project he might not have the restrictions if it's not a Jag for instance.
Like this '36 Chevy pickup, I have a lot of latitude there.
#23
12-23-2013, 12:15 AM
Senior Member
the 6.8 is actually a 6.5 because I ended up using a stock crank and stroking it instead of a 6l crank. it's going in an 87 xjs, with a five speed manual.
I'm hopefully going to have the motor in the car by next week, and running soon after. and planning on running the motor with the stock intake setup at first and then I will upgrade once I get the next setup figured out.
I'm hopefully going to have the motor in the car by next week, and running soon after. and planning on running the motor with the stock intake setup at first and then I will upgrade once I get the next setup figured out.
#24
12-23-2013, 09:29 PM
Hi Cal,
I have to ask, what are you wanted to accomplish with the build, just a nice, well built engine in a somewhat over-restored car, or something that will drop jaws when the hood is opened and will run with the best of the street cars?
The reason I ask is that if you are going through the trouble of this really good engine build, it needs a good place to play in.
Putting all the stock stuff on it has to be a real pain, as I just removed one of these engines and it took a lot of time to peel off the junk to even get to it.
When I approach a project like this I stand back and see what they did to clutter up the engine bay.
Then I think about what is really necessary in there.
Usually that answer is... engine, yes.
Electronic modules or anything like that..no.
I don't care if someone bought an MSD box or whatever, I don't want to see the thing under the hood, even if they gold plated it.
Cruise control.....not in a Hot Rod, (which is what yours became when you stroked the crank), and not with a 5-spd.
Radiator, ok yeah, that can stay.
Big water reservoir?..not necessary.
Windshield washer jug,... nope.
Brake booster?...not really necessary, but that's for a later discussion if you want.
The focal point of any Hot Rod is the engine, then stance and wheels, and then paint, which can be changed a lot easier than the mill.
The engine is the heart of the build, and you seem to have gotten that right so far, so don't get too anxious, and miss the whole point of what you're doing.
If you've come so far as to powdercoat the suspension, follow through and slick up all under the hood, (bonnet or whatever).
Make it smooth enough to drag a damp rag over it all and have it clean in 5 minutes and not loose the rag in a wad of wires that don't need to be on the fenderwells.
At least Jaguar was really kind and,(had some very smart person), put the wipers in the cowl, and made it all one nice hidden chunk.
I've spent many hours re-engineering wipers, brakes and clutch working to have them under the dash, so you're a few steps ahead there.
In short, if it doesn't absolutely have to be there, either toss it or relocate it.
Also, if you try to get it running with the stock ECU and everything, and have removed anything it thinks it needs you will have trouble.
Again, I wouldn't think of ever using more O2 sensors than necessary to have it run and clutter up things that you're trying to clean up.
If this is a all-out-race-car, then that doesn't matter as you can throw out 'looks' in place of that last bit of torque or hp.
But if you want a great street machine that will have everyone at a show looking at your work, keep it simple looking, and let them wonder how it could possibly run that well without all the clutter.
With all that said, I wouldn't even consider using any of the stock stuff, and chose what you want for induction and do it once.
It's a proven build you've done, so trust it and yourself to go all the way with it.
Just keep it simple and don't try to over-think it all.
There's a lot of help on the other side of the computer screen, and also in your own imagination.
I'd love to be using an engine for this project like yours, but it isn't necessary for this fellow's build.
It just needs to look good and run like it looks which it will.
Have a look at the throttle bodies sitting on some Weber EFI plates I made a while back to use injectors under the 48mm carbs.
These are the same height as the intakes will be so you get the idea of how this will look with the short stacks for an under-hood system.
We'll add extensions for the truck, or not, when he figures out where the body will sit on the chassis in relation to the engine.
Also a few shots of the '67 Hemi Dart I'm building so you get what I mean about relocating or tossing stuff.
With a little coaching you can make it a stunning machine, as you're already heading that direction.
I have to ask, what are you wanted to accomplish with the build, just a nice, well built engine in a somewhat over-restored car, or something that will drop jaws when the hood is opened and will run with the best of the street cars?
The reason I ask is that if you are going through the trouble of this really good engine build, it needs a good place to play in.
Putting all the stock stuff on it has to be a real pain, as I just removed one of these engines and it took a lot of time to peel off the junk to even get to it.
When I approach a project like this I stand back and see what they did to clutter up the engine bay.
Then I think about what is really necessary in there.
Usually that answer is... engine, yes.
Electronic modules or anything like that..no.
I don't care if someone bought an MSD box or whatever, I don't want to see the thing under the hood, even if they gold plated it.
Cruise control.....not in a Hot Rod, (which is what yours became when you stroked the crank), and not with a 5-spd.
Radiator, ok yeah, that can stay.
Big water reservoir?..not necessary.
Windshield washer jug,... nope.
Brake booster?...not really necessary, but that's for a later discussion if you want.
The focal point of any Hot Rod is the engine, then stance and wheels, and then paint, which can be changed a lot easier than the mill.
The engine is the heart of the build, and you seem to have gotten that right so far, so don't get too anxious, and miss the whole point of what you're doing.
If you've come so far as to powdercoat the suspension, follow through and slick up all under the hood, (bonnet or whatever).
Make it smooth enough to drag a damp rag over it all and have it clean in 5 minutes and not loose the rag in a wad of wires that don't need to be on the fenderwells.
At least Jaguar was really kind and,(had some very smart person), put the wipers in the cowl, and made it all one nice hidden chunk.
I've spent many hours re-engineering wipers, brakes and clutch working to have them under the dash, so you're a few steps ahead there.
In short, if it doesn't absolutely have to be there, either toss it or relocate it.
Also, if you try to get it running with the stock ECU and everything, and have removed anything it thinks it needs you will have trouble.
Again, I wouldn't think of ever using more O2 sensors than necessary to have it run and clutter up things that you're trying to clean up.
If this is a all-out-race-car, then that doesn't matter as you can throw out 'looks' in place of that last bit of torque or hp.
But if you want a great street machine that will have everyone at a show looking at your work, keep it simple looking, and let them wonder how it could possibly run that well without all the clutter.
With all that said, I wouldn't even consider using any of the stock stuff, and chose what you want for induction and do it once.
It's a proven build you've done, so trust it and yourself to go all the way with it.
Just keep it simple and don't try to over-think it all.
There's a lot of help on the other side of the computer screen, and also in your own imagination.
I'd love to be using an engine for this project like yours, but it isn't necessary for this fellow's build.
It just needs to look good and run like it looks which it will.
Have a look at the throttle bodies sitting on some Weber EFI plates I made a while back to use injectors under the 48mm carbs.
These are the same height as the intakes will be so you get the idea of how this will look with the short stacks for an under-hood system.
We'll add extensions for the truck, or not, when he figures out where the body will sit on the chassis in relation to the engine.
Also a few shots of the '67 Hemi Dart I'm building so you get what I mean about relocating or tossing stuff.
With a little coaching you can make it a stunning machine, as you're already heading that direction.
#25
12-24-2013, 12:00 AM
Senior Member
#27
12-24-2013, 06:31 PM
Hi Ron,
I have a somewhat different saying..
"Make it go, then chrome it...or not."
Cal,
Not sure what you mean by them working out.
The picture I took I just did a mock-up on the engine to show basic height, and sort of how it will look.
The throttle bodies work fine as they have been on the Roadster for a few years and many thousands of miles now.
The intakes themselves were just drawn up a few days before I posted the rendition.
I have a somewhat different saying..
"Make it go, then chrome it...or not."
Cal,
Not sure what you mean by them working out.
The picture I took I just did a mock-up on the engine to show basic height, and sort of how it will look.
The throttle bodies work fine as they have been on the Roadster for a few years and many thousands of miles now.
The intakes themselves were just drawn up a few days before I posted the rendition.
#30
12-25-2013, 07:52 AM
Hi Silver,
Yes I do have it.
The whole assembly is still in the car, but not sure if it works.
I'll pull it and check it out first chance I get.
Let me know what you care to give for it.
Fran Olson, FOX Engineering co.
Hi Cal,
Which are you asking about, the Jag or the Lamborghini?
In that looong post above, the picture of the mock up of the Jag was taken a few hours before posting.
The manifolds are in the works, getting quotes for the machining, so it's a ways from being up and running.
I guess I need to cut my postings short as there is too much to read.
That probably got lost in my trying to encourage you to finish off under the hood after building a great engine to put there.
That actually takes less effort than you think.
Yes I do have it.
The whole assembly is still in the car, but not sure if it works.
I'll pull it and check it out first chance I get.
Let me know what you care to give for it.
Fran Olson, FOX Engineering co.
Hi Cal,
Which are you asking about, the Jag or the Lamborghini?
In that looong post above, the picture of the mock up of the Jag was taken a few hours before posting.
The manifolds are in the works, getting quotes for the machining, so it's a ways from being up and running.
I guess I need to cut my postings short as there is too much to read.
That probably got lost in my trying to encourage you to finish off under the hood after building a great engine to put there.
That actually takes less effort than you think.
#31
12-25-2013, 07:48 PM
Senior Member
Hi Silver,
Yes I do have it.
The whole assembly is still in the car, but not sure if it works.
I'll pull it and check it out first chance I get.
Let me know what you care to give for it.
Fran Olson, FOX Engineering co.
Hi Cal,
Which are you asking about, the Jag or the Lamborghini?
In that looong post above, the picture of the mock up of the Jag was taken a few hours before posting.
The manifolds are in the works, getting quotes for the machining, so it's a ways from being up and running.
I guess I need to cut my postings short as there is too much to read.
That probably got lost in my trying to encourage you to finish off under the hood after building a great engine to put there.
That actually takes less effort than you think.
Yes I do have it.
The whole assembly is still in the car, but not sure if it works.
I'll pull it and check it out first chance I get.
Let me know what you care to give for it.
Fran Olson, FOX Engineering co.
Hi Cal,
Which are you asking about, the Jag or the Lamborghini?
In that looong post above, the picture of the mock up of the Jag was taken a few hours before posting.
The manifolds are in the works, getting quotes for the machining, so it's a ways from being up and running.
I guess I need to cut my postings short as there is too much to read.
That probably got lost in my trying to encourage you to finish off under the hood after building a great engine to put there.
That actually takes less effort than you think.
I am looking to have an intake setup machined for mine, but I just need a flange for the head side with the injector ports. any ideas on.how much that would cost?
don't mean to hijack the post, but I figured you would be the one to ask
#32
12-26-2013, 01:23 PM
Hi Cal,
You didn't hijack the post as it was for you anyway.
I'm working on cost at the moment for what I'm doing.
I'll be making a few variations of the bottom plate as I go along and get this done first.
The factory has them pointing straight down from the top, but that really limits the design of the intake.
The next system would be probably for an engine with the smaller distributor or triggering unit, and have the injectors in the base plates.
What were you thinking on the positioning?
Also if you are going to make the headers, I can supply you with all the tubing and flanges.
I'm going to use 1-1/2'' od stuff for this project, but can fix you up with what ever you want, but would suggest to use the same unless your ports are bigger.
If you start on the headers sometime soon, I'll probably have this V12 intake system done and running before you finish.
I have made a lot of headers, and they can consume your time.
The ones in the picture of the Dart Hemi took about a week, and I had the car on the rotisserie, and had made removable fenderwells which make it 10 times easier.
I used 2-1/4'' tubing there.
Fran
I can't seem to load pics, so I'll do that later.
You didn't hijack the post as it was for you anyway.
I'm working on cost at the moment for what I'm doing.
I'll be making a few variations of the bottom plate as I go along and get this done first.
The factory has them pointing straight down from the top, but that really limits the design of the intake.
The next system would be probably for an engine with the smaller distributor or triggering unit, and have the injectors in the base plates.
What were you thinking on the positioning?
Also if you are going to make the headers, I can supply you with all the tubing and flanges.
I'm going to use 1-1/2'' od stuff for this project, but can fix you up with what ever you want, but would suggest to use the same unless your ports are bigger.
If you start on the headers sometime soon, I'll probably have this V12 intake system done and running before you finish.
I have made a lot of headers, and they can consume your time.
The ones in the picture of the Dart Hemi took about a week, and I had the car on the rotisserie, and had made removable fenderwells which make it 10 times easier.
I used 2-1/4'' tubing there.
Fran
I can't seem to load pics, so I'll do that later.
#33
12-26-2013, 06:03 PM
Here are just a couple of the pics of the header build on the Dart.
It was engineered to have them not hanging under the car.
Everyone else does it that way as it's easier.
But with the body mods it wasn't that hard.
It was less tight than stock and I had room to make the right bends work.
I really wouldn't want to make them for the XJS unless I was building the car, as I'd probably make some good changes in the car itself to do it so they could work better, and come out easy.
It was engineered to have them not hanging under the car.
Everyone else does it that way as it's easier.
But with the body mods it wasn't that hard.
It was less tight than stock and I had room to make the right bends work.
I really wouldn't want to make them for the XJS unless I was building the car, as I'd probably make some good changes in the car itself to do it so they could work better, and come out easy.
#34
12-26-2013, 11:07 PM
Senior Member
#35
12-27-2013, 11:50 AM
Hi Cal,
I just got the cost on the flanges.
I'm having them made individually, and not connected together.
That might seem odd, but they will be easier to handle that way, especially for what you are doing.
The cost $18 each, so that will be $226.
This is the actual cost, with nothing added just so you know.
I do have to drive 50 miles to get them, but I need to do that anyway so it's not a problem.
I felt they were a bit high but they are precision waterjet cut and tumbled to de-burr them.
Just let me know so I can tell them to go ahead on the extra 12 or not.
Frran
I just got the cost on the flanges.
I'm having them made individually, and not connected together.
That might seem odd, but they will be easier to handle that way, especially for what you are doing.
The cost $18 each, so that will be $226.
This is the actual cost, with nothing added just so you know.
I do have to drive 50 miles to get them, but I need to do that anyway so it's not a problem.
I felt they were a bit high but they are precision waterjet cut and tumbled to de-burr them.
Just let me know so I can tell them to go ahead on the extra 12 or not.
Frran
#36
12-27-2013, 11:55 AM
#37
12-27-2013, 09:25 PM
Senior Member
Hi Cal,
I just got the cost on the flanges.
I'm having them made individually, and not connected together.
That might seem odd, but they will be easier to handle that way, especially for what you are doing.
The cost $18 each, so that will be $226.
This is the actual cost, with nothing added just so you know.
I do have to drive 50 miles to get them, but I need to do that anyway so it's not a problem.
I felt they were a bit high but they are precision waterjet cut and tumbled to de-burr them.
Just let me know so I can tell them to go ahead on the extra 12 or not.
Frran
I just got the cost on the flanges.
I'm having them made individually, and not connected together.
That might seem odd, but they will be easier to handle that way, especially for what you are doing.
The cost $18 each, so that will be $226.
This is the actual cost, with nothing added just so you know.
I do have to drive 50 miles to get them, but I need to do that anyway so it's not a problem.
I felt they were a bit high but they are precision waterjet cut and tumbled to de-burr them.
Just let me know so I can tell them to go ahead on the extra 12 or not.
Frran
#38
12-28-2013, 07:39 AM
Hi Cal,
Yes, exhaust.
Sorry that wasn't clear.
The intake bases they are still working on the cost.
That will be a solid part from front to back as it is easier to work with.
On the exhaust, doing what you are planning it is way easier to do one pipe at a time rather than 3 together.
Once you start that project you will see what I mean.
Fran
Yes, exhaust.
Sorry that wasn't clear.
The intake bases they are still working on the cost.
That will be a solid part from front to back as it is easier to work with.
On the exhaust, doing what you are planning it is way easier to do one pipe at a time rather than 3 together.
Once you start that project you will see what I mean.
Fran
#39
12-28-2013, 01:39 PM
Senior Member
I got a price on the intake flanges I will need, they are far more basic than the ones you had drawn up. just essentially a 1.25 inch thick flange with the Injectors drilled into the hole and flatfaced and holes that are about 1.5 at the top and 1.38 at the bottom to facilitate the intake runners.
I was quotes 350 a piece.
I was quotes 350 a piece.
#40
12-28-2013, 03:13 PM
Hi Cal,
I'm sure they are simpler than what I've got drawn.
The cost isn't bad.
Just make sure you have it all worked out in your head how you want to do it before you start.
Like, is there going to be room to deal with the injectors when you get it together if it's all welded together, unless you make it in 3 pieces with the bases separate, and if the placement of the injectors are pointing where you want them.
Also make sure the base plates have the clearance for the acorn nuts on the head studs.
I'm sure they are simpler than what I've got drawn.
The cost isn't bad.
Just make sure you have it all worked out in your head how you want to do it before you start.
Like, is there going to be room to deal with the injectors when you get it together if it's all welded together, unless you make it in 3 pieces with the bases separate, and if the placement of the injectors are pointing where you want them.
Also make sure the base plates have the clearance for the acorn nuts on the head studs.