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Since you were doing some work on the bottom Cover Plate, are those two big bolts near the base just bolts or a shaft that can be knocked through when one of those nuts are undone?
Do you think it might be easier if I took off the big metal shroud?
'I think I may have to ask 'Santa' for some of those wire twirling pliers!'
Ok
These are the nuts on each end of the lower wishbone inner fulcrum. Unless your dog bones are loose, or you are going to rebuild the inner fulcrum bearings, leave well alone! If by the shroud, you mean the subframe, then to redo that 100% properly (ie paint wire brushes, cleaned, rust-treayed and repainted etc etc) the lower fulcrums have to be removed. BUT, if the inner fulcrums bearings are OK, and the diff attachment to the subframe is OK, I would work round them and do the best you can with them in situ.
if you recall about a year ago, my dogbones, that attach to the diff sides, came loose (part 5 below). I am not as skilled as the WoZ, but it took me and a friend about two mornings of really hard work to get them back in correctly and the fulcrums and bearings fitted.... If there is no looseness and no play, I would never take them apart.
Replacing the inner fulcrum bearings is a tricky business, and in my view not worth bothering with unless you have a definite problem to fix.
1 to 15 in this diagram is what you are looking at: https://parts.jaguarlandroverclassic.../brand/jaguar/
Part number 6 are the shims required to align the wishbone holes for part number 2 precisely with the holes in the subframe each side (the holes in the subframe under the nuts you were enquiring about).
So a decision about what is needed to be made!
Maybe be those Rotors were within the limit when she was tested but if they were to wear a little bit more, then that round strip of metal falls off and clatters round the drive shaft, where it makes a noise just like a 'Ringing Telephone'
That's what happened with 'Fern' my Green XJS and that was why I sold her because I didn't know how to fix her and was quoted an eye watering sum of to have the job done by a Shop
That's good to know about the sound. And I guess now you know why they wanted to charge you so much after dropping the cage yourself. I'm hoping I'll be at that point by the spring and will be coming through your posts for help.
Quite a bit to think about there, its just a shame that removing the Subframe/Shroud, could lead to complications that might be hard to sort out
So I think I'll do the best I can with the Subframe still in place and then maybe revisit this at a later date, all depending on how hard it is to clean up and then I'll give it a long overdue coat of paint
I was driving along in my Car 'Fern' a V12 XJS (my first XJS) when I heard a Tinkling Sound, just like a Telephone Ringing! and when I looked underneath the Car I saw the Steel Ring had come off the Rotor and was hanging round the Driveshaft like a Hoop at a Coconut Shy
So I had to cut it off with a Hacksaw, which was about the limit of my mechanical skills at the time but I didn't know how to fix it or get anyone to give me a quote for a reasonable price to fix her and so I decided to sell her while She still had time to run on her MOT
When you get around to doing your Rotors, I would avoid the OEM ones, in favour of the Solid aftermarket type that don't have that Steel Ring inside that Twin Plate Sandwich
While taking the Cage out was easy, replacing the Rotors and Calipers is quite a bit more involved, as reflected in a couple of prices I was quoted, which was not far shy of £1,000 and that was just to replace the Rotors and Calipers and that was if I took out the Cage out and delivered it
So if you are unable or unwilling to get stuck in and do these jobs yourself, then driving an XJS could be a very expensive hobby, except of course it isn't long before you get addicted and just in case that happens to you, I think I've got a number you can call LOL
I was driving along in my Car 'Fern' a V12 XJS (my first XJS) when I heard a Tinkling Sound, just like a Telephone Ringing! and when I looked underneath the Car I saw the Steel Ring had come off the Rotor and was hanging round the Driveshaft like a Hoop at a Coconut Shy
So I had to cut it off with a Hacksaw, which was about the limit of my mechanical skills at the time but I didn't know how to fix it or get anyone to give me a quote for a reasonable price to fix her and so I decided to sell her while She still had time to run on her MOT
When you get around to doing your Rotors, I would avoid the OEM ones, in favour of the Solid aftermarket type that don't have that Steel Ring inside that Twin Plate Sandwich
While taking the Cage out was easy, replacing the Rotors and Calipers is quite a bit more involved, as reflected in a couple of prices I was quoted, which was not far shy of £1,000 and that was just to replace the Rotors and Calipers and that was if I took out the Cage out and delivered it
So if you are unable or unwilling to get stuck in and do these jobs yourself, then driving an XJS could be a very expensive hobby, except of course it isn't long before you get addicted and just in case that happens to you, I think I've got a number you can call LOL
Hahah too right. Once I get setup for the winter 8n the garage I'm going to do the front in first then get the cage done 2nd. If I can ge the car road worthy and safety by next spring I will feel accomplished.
Being in Canada it takes a bit more time to source parts and then wait for shipping but when I have those waiting periods I'm going to start on the body. Will probably look like a rat road job by next spring lol.
So far its been easy, I've taken out the Cage and now its time to Change the Rotors and the Calipers and although on first Inspection none of those look great, someone has to take the Old ones off
And since there's no one else around, that someone looks like me!
Where the first thing I am faced with is a 'Catch 22' Situation, as you can't take off the Rotors without taking off the Calipers and you can't take off the Calipers without taking off the Rotors
They sort of have to both come off together!
And if that sounds Complicated then you ain't seen nothing yet as you have to poke your Spanners through the Subframe/Cage which of course is getting in the way, at which point I am really wishing that it wasn't there as 'Oh how simple Life would be without it!'
Where the all to obvious answer would be to take it off, which of course is not as simple as it sounds as if you go and get this wrong then you can fall into a 'Bear Trap' of having all the Seals and Washers on the Inside of the Wishbones falling out
Which can leave you with a Puzzle that could take some sorting out, in the event you want to ever put those Wishbones back in place
So some say it is better if you leave that Subframe well alone and work around it the best way you can, which sounds good advice to me but then I started wondering just how hard it could be, as after all there are only Six Bolts to undo to take it off
With the Subframe Cage in place, you can't see what you're doing and everything is getting in the way!
Ignoring all the Warnings, I just couldn't let it lie and so I decided that the Subframe Cage had to come off, at which point I was thinking 'What could possibly go wrong'
The Answer being nothing I could think of, providing that you have some Special Tools
Which take the form of 'Dummy Shafts' that prevent the Seals and Washers falling out, which you can buy on ebay for around £40 unless of course you want to make your own, which was exactly what I decided to do
And here is how I did it!
Step: 1. Take a scrap piece of 1/2 inch Copper Water Pipe and cut Two pieces Thirteen and a Quarter Inches Long (see photo)
Step: 2. There is No Step: 2 that's it!
Although you can pour yourself a drink and then Congratulate yourself on Saving 40 Quid!
Cut 2 lengths of 1/2 Copper Water Pipe 13.25 inches long
Next undo the Nuts on the Shafts of the Wishbone Arms
Undoing the Nuts on the Wishbone Arms, you may not need to use an Impact Wrench but if you've got it flaunt it!
Nut taken off the Wishbone Shaft, you only need to take the Nut off one end
Having taken the Nut off one end of the Shaft, take your piece of Copper Pipe and very, very, gently use it to Tap the Wishbone Shaft right through and out the other side, to the point of where its 'Almost' falling out, with either a Rubber or a Rawhide Hammer
'Do not hit the Shaft to hard or it could fly out the other end like a Snooker Trick Shot' where you could then have those Washers and Seals, scattered all over the place (which is the one thing that you really want to avoid!)
As you Tap the 'Dummy Shaft' in the 'Wishbone Shaft' comes out the other side (don't take any notice of that other Shaft in the Pic) as I was also trying to undo the Coil Over Shocks
Dummy Shaft going in, as the Wishbone Shaft is Tapped through
Using a Rawhide Hammer to 'Gently' Tap the end of the 'Dummy Shaft'
Wishbone Shaft 'Almost' out (don't take it any further than this) as you want to leave the 'Dummy Shaft' just inside the Wishbone, without it poking out of the Subframe Cage on either side
This is how you are wanting the 'Dummy Shaft' to look (poking through the Wisbone but NOT sticking out the Cage on either side, or it will prevent you from lifting the Cage off
After that, feed a length of String through the 'Dummy Shaft'
String fed through the 'Dummy Shaft' from one side to the other (but why would you need to do that?)
The reason that you need the String, is to catch the Washers and Seals as they fall off the end of the Wishbone when you lift off the Cage (you can just see the end of the 'Dummy Shaft' in the Photo
Next undo the 4 Top Nuts after Cutting the Locking Wire OFF
Undoing the 4 Top Nuts, although they looked very rusty they all came out dead easy, with a Spanner that I tapped with a Hammer, as I didn't want or even need to use the Impact Wrench
Removing the Brake Pipes
Removing the Springs (note the Safety Glasses) you don't want to have a Spring flying into your eye
Now there's only one more thing to do and that is unbolt the Bottom Plate off the Subframe Cage under the Diff, which I had already prepared by undoing all the Captive Bolts beforehand and just leaving the 4 Nuts and Bolts on each Corner
After that, its time to Lift the Cage off, or rather lift up one side and sort of roll it over, so the Cage comes off the end of the Propshaft, while being very Careful not to cut that precious Wire that goes to the Speedo Sensor!
Cage coming off the Base Plate, as you lift the Cage off (undo and remove the Captive Bolts underneath beforehand) so when you are ready to lift off the Cage, the only thing you need to do is undo the 4 Corner Bolts
As you lift the Cage off the Washers and Seals may fall off the ends of the 'Dummy Shaft' but as long as the String is there to keep them in order, then all should be ok (its the ones inside the Wishbone Arms that should not be allowed to fall) Hence the reason for the 'Dummy Shaft' to hold them in place
Then just lift the Cage off and that is it-Job Done!
Access All Areas Yass!
With the Cage now out of the way it is so much easier to work as well as Cleaning and Painting everything when its all finished
So how long did it take me Start to Finished?
I put a Timer on this one and it took exactly 4 hours, which included many Tea Breaks and abnormal Slices of Chocolate Cake!
With the benefit of hindsight I could have done it in about 3 hours but I wasted an hour by trying to take the Coil Overs Springs off, which I found I didn't have to do!
Where just for those who do not know DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TAKE THE SPRINGS OFF THE SHOCKS! or you could easily fatally injure yourself!
Finally how hard was this Job to do?
It was an absolute 'Walk In The Park' and almost a 'Non Event' which 'Should' make Changing the Rotors and the Calipers, so much easier than it would have been with the Cage still in place
Last edited by orangeblossom; 10-29-2019 at 07:42 PM.
Some might say it's Overkill but I'm so glad I took the Sub Frame Cage off, as the IRS looks such a mess that doing it any other way could have been a 'Nightmare!' but having done so then at least I can clean it up and also work much easier on all the awkward bits that need replacing
Not a pretty sight but I will get there! or maybe I should dump it in the nearest 'Skip' It looks that bad!
Nope! that's not the attitude and somehow I will fix it, so its time to get 'stuck in' by removing the Hand Brake Mechanism which sits on top of the Hydraulic Rear Calipers
Not as difficult as it looks, just bend back the Locking Tabs then undo those Two Bolts (Note the Broken Bleed Nipple which will also have to be drilled out)
The Adjusting Screws for the Brake Pads are also locked with Split Pins and can stay that way till I put New Pads in
More than one of the Hand Brake Pads had Broken away from its Back Plate!
Bending Back the Locking Tabs before undoing the Bolts
Undoing the Bolts to remove the Locking Tabs and the Rear Handbrake Mechanism, That 'Forked Thingy' is the Spring that keeps the Handbrake Pads Clear of the Rotors, while the Hand Brake is in the Off position
Removing the Bolts that Clamp the Hand Brake Mechanism to the Rear Calipers
Hand Brake Mechanism Bolts and Retainers removed
Hand Brake Mechanism Spring Fork Removed
With the Bolts removed its just a case of pulling the Hand Brake Mechanism Off
Job done Hand Brake Mechanism taken off, 'Note the Hand Brake Pad has been ripped off its Back Plate which may have happened during an MOT Test
In order to remove the Old Hand Brake Pad and Back Plate, this Bolt needs to be undone 'Good luck with that I'm thinking' where's the Angle Grinder!
Against the Odds I undid the Bolt enough to remove the Old Brake Pad, though I'm going to replace them anyway
On the opposite side of that Bolt is a Clip that holds the Brake Pad and its Backing Plate (note the Brake Pad is missing and may have got ripped off)
Backing Plate nearly off (with a gentle Tap with a FBH!)
The Brake Pad may have got ripped off during an MOT Test
A Hand Brake Pad and Backing Pad all in one piece this time! not that it matters as I'll be renewing them all
That little Job was dead easy and next is removing the Calipers, if only I am able to find the right size Spanner!
How The XJS Handbrake Mechanism Works On A Pre-Facelift XJS V12
Just adding a short Video of how the XJS Handbrake Mechanism Works on an XJS V12 which maybe useful to some new owners who may have never seen this before, as it can be quite hard to figure this out unless you get under the Car
So this is a chance to have a good look with the Shroud of the Sub Frame Cover Removed, where if it were connected the Handbrake Cable when applied would pull those Two Arms together to apply the Handbrake to the Rotors (which have their own little Brake Pads)
Keen observers will note that one Brake Pad is Missing and has been ripped off its Backing Plate most probably during her last MOT Test
Where unlike on more 'Normal Cars' this can be a Problem! as when the Wheels are Spinning on the 'Rolling Road' there is so much Torque involved, that if the Tester isn't too familiar with these Cars
The Sudden Application or even Prolonged Application of the Handbrake can literally rip the Handbrake Pad off its Backing Plate, which then could well leave you with a Tricky little problem to sort out!
Also quite a few posts on here, as to how the Handbrake Lever works where for those who may not know, this is what they call a 'Fly Off Handbrake' as fitted to the very early 'Mini'
Where to apply the Handbrake you pull the Handbrake Lever up on its Ratchet (without Pressing the Button) and then Press the Button to let the Lever go down once you feel the Handbrake engage in its Ratchet and in doing so the Handbrake will stay on
Where in order to Release the Handbrake, you Press the Button (First!) and then pull the Handbrake up (just a little bit further) to take it just a fraction over its Ratchet Point, then while 'Keeping the Button Pressed' you sort of 'Slam the Lever Down' to release it
(Not very hard but a bit more than letting it drop) where you can fine tune your movement of this, once you get a feel for how it works
Also be quite careful not to pull the Handbrake past the 'Last Click of its Ratchet' as it needs some Tension in the Cable to release it, where doing so could leave you with a really Awkward Problem to sort out
All of which can often be avoided by keeping the Handbrake Cable well adjusted and only pulling the Handbrake on, as hard as it needs to be
'Greg' has an Amazing Hand Brake Pad Fix, which I may well be making use of myself and so I'm hoping he will slide in with a Link
With Winter starting to set in, its been Cold and Raining all day long, so not much chance of getting anything done to the IRS unless I could manage to get it under cover, which I eventually managed to do by shunting almost everything around
So now I can get on with this without getting quite as Cold and Wet, where once having done so I decided I would do another very easy little job, which was to remove the 4 Coil Over Shocks from the Cage, as I am warming to the idea of having the Cage Powder Coated or at least repainted as it looks a mess!
There are only 4 Nuts and Bolts, so how hard could it be?
The answer being easy, although I had to use a Breaker Bar as the Nuts and Bolts were very rusty where replacing those Bolts with New Ones later on in the game, would make it a lot easier to change them, if I ever had to in the future
Using a Breaker Bar and Ratchet to undo the Coil Over Shocks from the Cage
Pretty Straight Forward Really and will certainly make the IRS Cage much easier to clean and then repaint
One down and Three to go!
Cleaning this up could be a bit of a Nightmare!
All done only took a couple of hours!
Warning to those who may not know, do NOT attempt to dismantle those Coil Over Shock Absorbers as those Springs are fully loaded and as such could cause you and anyone nearby a very Fatal Injury, if you tried to take them apart
But apart from taking the Subframe Shroud off and removing the Handbrake Mechanism as well as the Coil Over Springs, its much the same as it was when I took it out and there is still a long long way to go!
The reason being I'm not in a rush, as I've got lots of other non XJS related jobs to play Catch-up on around the House and so as far as the IRS is concerned, this is going to be a Winter Project that takes as long as it takes
Where I will be hoping to do a little bit to it whenever time allows, including a major Clean up an repaint
'The Perfect Caliper Spanner Turned Up In A Pile Of Junk'
Getting down to the good bit now, which is removing the Rear Calipers and Old Rotors all of which are going to be replaced with New as the Calipers look in really bad condition and while I suppose I could replace the Pistons
I'd rather spend the extra on some New ones, which will hopefully leave me with no problems down the line as when it comes to Brakes on an XJS I don't want to cut any corners or take any Chances
But first I have to get the Old ones off, which might not be as easy as it looks, where for that I think it really help to have a Spanner of the 'Perfect Size' as if there ever was a Nut (or should that be Bolt) that you don't want to round off, it has to be the ones on the Rear Calipers
Or you could have more problems than you know what to do with
And there was me thinking that finding the right size Spanner would be easy, as unlike when I first joined the Forum and hardly had a Spanner to my name, I have got lots of them now
Although quite Bizarrely not one to fit the Caliper Bolts as tightly as I would like
Some were almost the right Size but even so it was really 'Nice Try, No Cigar!'
At which point I resorted to looking through all the Old Spanners that I had found at 'Yard Sales' and 'Bingo' there it was!
Where so Perfect was that Spanner that it was a 'Tap on fit!'
Except I don't know what it is, as its very hard to read the Size and as well it also looks like it says BSF which I've never heard of!
'So I need to get out more'
Although it's absolutely Perfect for the Job, so maybe its a Spanner that was made for 'Classic Cars' from way back when
And here it is!
Not seen one like this before but it looks like 3/8 BSF or something?
Found in a Junk Box of Stuff that I got from a 'Yard Sale'
Tried to buy one like it to keep as a Spare but my local Car Accessory Shop had never seen one either, where as such this now Treasured Possession has been painted 'White' so I don't lose it!
A Perfect Fit for the Caliper Bolts and just what I need!
Whitworth was an incredibly talented Victorian engineer, and among many other things he was the first person to be able to measure accurately to 1 millionth of an inch.
Last edited by Greg in France; 11-17-2019 at 05:02 PM.
No wonder my Car Accessory Shop, were giving me Blank Looks, as they only do Metric Spanners and not much else beside that but I've heard they are the 'Go To' place, if you ever need some 'Fluffy Dice'
I never knew any of that but that Spanner is such a 'Perfect Fit' that I had to Scrape the White Paint off before I could get it to fit on the Caliper Bolts
I'll have to look out for another one, that has a Straight Shaft on the other end, as you're very limited with space and so without taking the Cage out, I think undoing those Caliper Bolts could be a bit of a 'Nightmare' as I had to use a 3ft Bar on the other end of the Spanner to get it to turn
But then once I had got it to turn, I was able to use a bigger Spanner on the Bolt to undo it
Photos to follow soon and nothing in the way of problems so far, except the IRS is covered in a thick layer of dirt and crud, which is going to be a 'Nightmare' to clean off, which I think will be the worst part of the Job
10-22-2019, 12:33 AM
