direct chamber water injection .
#22
07-25-2017, 10:34 PM
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It's useful for lowering combustion chamber temps and that reduces the formation of NOx. A good emissions device. Also not practical in cold climates.
#23
07-26-2017, 09:23 AM
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Correct but this also reduces engine efficiency (power output). The OP is under the mistaken impression that water injection (on it's own) will increase power.
#24
07-26-2017, 09:27 AM
Bet that car is worth lots of $$$$$ now if you could find one.
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ronbros (07-26-2017)
#25
07-26-2017, 09:45 AM
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Mac;
Sounds like my WI, but more elaborate. I kept mine, just for....
All:
1. My son just sent me a picture of the revamped front suspension on his "Tom's Low T". Built from scratch. Milled alloy and TIG welded steel.
On the order of Allard' split I beam, and Ford's version.
Power. A 460 that "grew" from a 429. Tons of "heat" added....
Carl
Sounds like my WI, but more elaborate. I kept mine, just for....
All:
1. My son just sent me a picture of the revamped front suspension on his "Tom's Low T". Built from scratch. Milled alloy and TIG welded steel.
On the order of Allard' split I beam, and Ford's version.
Power. A 460 that "grew" from a 429. Tons of "heat" added....
Carl
#26
07-26-2017, 10:05 AM
For some reason I feel like adding some 'water/steam' to this heated discussion :-)
The theory behind this water injection (as I understand it) is that current engines are like 60-70% efficient at converting gas into motion (the rest of the energy is flying through the exhaust and radiator). The process that happen in cylinders when fuel mixture is ignited is quite complex - there are flame fronts, fire storms and hurricanes, pressure waves acting on moving piston - hell!... nobody really figured it all the way. But the opportunity to improve things is there(~30%wasted). Water injection in small amount is a way to change dynamics of the that burning mess so that pressure changes are better aligned with piston movement or more beneficial in some other way. Worth the research... :-)
The theory behind this water injection (as I understand it) is that current engines are like 60-70% efficient at converting gas into motion (the rest of the energy is flying through the exhaust and radiator). The process that happen in cylinders when fuel mixture is ignited is quite complex - there are flame fronts, fire storms and hurricanes, pressure waves acting on moving piston - hell!... nobody really figured it all the way. But the opportunity to improve things is there(~30%wasted). Water injection in small amount is a way to change dynamics of the that burning mess so that pressure changes are better aligned with piston movement or more beneficial in some other way. Worth the research... :-)
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ronbros (07-26-2017)
#27
07-26-2017, 12:18 PM
Veteran Member
Water injection:
is not about burning water.. or making power with steam....
water injection and water/ alcohol mix injection I all about Charge COOLing... reduction of detonation and increasing cylinder pressures
and is not VOODOO...
it is a well engineered ,highly documented, and used since before WWII and used in supercharged aircraft engine during the war...
is not about burning water.. or making power with steam....
water injection and water/ alcohol mix injection I all about Charge COOLing... reduction of detonation and increasing cylinder pressures
and is not VOODOO...
it is a well engineered ,highly documented, and used since before WWII and used in supercharged aircraft engine during the war...
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ronbros (07-26-2017)
#28
07-26-2017, 12:37 PM
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For some reason I feel like adding some 'water/steam' to this heated discussion :-)
The theory behind this water injection (as I understand it) is that current engines are like 60-70% efficient at converting gas into motion (the rest of the energy is flying through the exhaust and radiator).
The theory behind this water injection (as I understand it) is that current engines are like 60-70% efficient at converting gas into motion (the rest of the energy is flying through the exhaust and radiator).
No, average efficiency is around 30%, the rest (70%) is wasted.
#29
07-26-2017, 04:14 PM
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you are totaly wrong, i did not say that WI alone will increase power, altho it can when cylinder pressures get out of limits!
if you read the paper,carefully, its about superheated steam and what could be possible, it is still under R&D, advances are showing interests.
why would BMW, Ford, Saab, be doing R&D at this time,, also GM knows more about it than they say!
i know you dont know that 1962 OLDSMOBILE F85 with all an aluminum V8 Turbocharged had worlds 1st production car ,water/alcohol injection system,(worked on one,nobody including dealer would touch it).
and lets not forget the GMC TYPHOON Turbo, water/alky system,factory.
seems there is more to it than you realize!
pic of an old system with resivoir, did well on this car., look close and you see the resivoi on Mazda.
Last edited by ronbros; 07-26-2017 at 04:31 PM.
#30
07-26-2017, 04:16 PM
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the systems do work quite well in cold weather ,alcohol dont freeze!
OK , waaay back 1949 my father bought a new Cadillac with the great big bore/ short stroke modern OHV V8.
it seemed that on hot summer drives, engine would make an ODD tinkling sound when going up hills.
brought to dealer , and he said gas was low octane, BUT GM has FIX bulletin for that, they added a glass jug under the hood , it had a small hose that went up to the aircleaner/carburator area?
well low and behold the noise went away! YUP must be Magic!!
the best part is i was there,15yrs old.
OK , waaay back 1949 my father bought a new Cadillac with the great big bore/ short stroke modern OHV V8.
it seemed that on hot summer drives, engine would make an ODD tinkling sound when going up hills.
brought to dealer , and he said gas was low octane, BUT GM has FIX bulletin for that, they added a glass jug under the hood , it had a small hose that went up to the aircleaner/carburator area?
well low and behold the noise went away! YUP must be Magic!!
the best part is i was there,15yrs old.
Last edited by ronbros; 07-26-2017 at 04:27 PM.
Mickey you dont even have anything ,of yours ,to show us!
#32
07-26-2017, 05:41 PM
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It's 'Mikey'.
OK. All I've got to show is 31 years of working alongside 200+ world class engineers who represented the 'cream of the crop' and specializing in thermodynamics while employed at an very large engine OEM. The theories and examples presented would have gotten you laughed right out the back exit.
I have no working examples to show you because there are none. There's no perpetual motion machines either.
The few engines we manufactured that had water injection for the same reasons as the Olds F85 you referenced, these reasons being spelled out in previous posts by myseld and others. Nothing new under the sun. Some/most of the crack pot stuff you linked to does not obey the laws of physics, even the principles taught at high school level.
Carry on.