idk, jaguar was still down there when they were ford owned. Admittedly up from BL era, but that goes without saying.

Now that Jaguar is owned by a company that lets them do what they want, they have created a whole range of new cars, and I believe their reliability ranking is in the top 3 nowadays!

 

fair enough greg, but somewhere back around 1993-4 an interview with some one from JAG,like Ian Callum or such(cant remember), said that the biggest advantage ford got was close to $400 million in Jaguar future R&D soft ware, that by now has been used in engineering!

suppose we will never really know.

 

That is the combustion chamber of a fireball straight 8. The fireball v6 is equally different. As far as I know the picture you provided is of a chevrolet 235 cylinder head

 

anyway this topic has been beat to death!

we could say that 90% of jag V12s failliers was from overheat conditons, that indicates not adequate cooling system, or poor internal jacket design(1960s).

and many of the guys who raced them grp44, TWR Allen scott and others, always had
oil cooling problems, again a system that was barely able to perform as needed.

it is a massive engine! and back then there was not much known about dry sump,much less go down town to local race shops and buys componets to build them.

today we see hi-performance cars coming out of the factories with DRY SUMP(Corvette,Ford super mustangs) systems.

anyway my take is simple, do a better coolant(water) system and a better oil cooling system.

factory V12 is a border line case of overheating,espeically in hot climates!

 

its all GM engineers, Chevrolet,Buick etc, GM bought Buick for some of there useful engineers and assembly lines.

also Buick was one of the 1st mass production engines to use the modern PENTROOF chamber, all the Nailheads used it.

now all the 4 valve engines use it, Hemis are in a league of there own!

 

I know they all share each others stuff, i was just saying that isn't a fireball head and I don't think May's design is related to the fireball i8 or V6
I hate to keep arguing but a 911 of the same vintage has a dry sump system.

I agree the main issue with the jag V12 is cooling and that the factory system has to be in perfect order to keep the car cool. The word is adequate. When I start taking fluid mechanics classes I plan on studying the pros and cons of the dual thermostat/split radiator system in the XJS a bit more thoroughly. I am not totally convinced it was solely for cooling, but maybe more a result of the lack of space in the engine bay. Even if it provides slightly better cooling, it certainly makes upgrading to a modern radiator much more expensive. Any gain should be negligible when you consider aluminum is twice as thermally conductive as brass so it would definitely be worth the change

 

Blowing smoke, RB. Ford paid 1.85 billion USD for that (even assuming is was worth 400m). The Jaguar Whiteley engineering centre was quite excellent, agreed. But Ford overpaid royally for Jaguar and also lost money at the trading level throughout their ownership.

Greg

 

they had it for like 19 years, if Ford couldn't do anything with it, that sounds like it was fords fault. They are doing much better now that they seem to just be doing whatever they like. What did they do for the company? Use a ford platform to make one of the worst jags we have ever seen? Brilliant.

Idk about making off with 400m of software but considering how long they operated without turning a profit, 400m couldn't possibly make up for nearly 20 years of revenue tied up and accomplishing nothing.

I think the damage was unfortunately done, the jaguar has lost their line of sight a little bit. They are too close to what everyone else makes and their old ideals of missing a couple of nuts and bolts to make luxury affordable is no longer really with us. This started in the BL era, and just got worse from their. Hopefully the XE sheds a new light on jaguar, not anything like what the E-type was in it's day, with the price of a modern day mustang, but hopefully it still brings some more awareness and accessibility to the brand to help it thrive.

 

No one seems to take issue with Volkswagen sharing platforms across their Audi and even Bentley brands or the Japanese doing the same with their multiple brands, but somehow Ford was supposed to create a new platform for every single new Jaguar model? This is the narrative that some with an axe to grind in the automotive press put out there and which has been senselessly repeated over and over again. They ruined the reputation of those cars by putting the false word out there that they where leftovers from the Ford parts bin.

Also giving their new Indian overlords (Tata) credit for anything other than the new XE is ridiculous. Do people really think that new models are developed in one year?. It takes a decade sometimes. The new XF and XJ where already set in stone when Tata purchased Jaguar, obviously the XF was already out.....The F type had been a very long time coming as well, almost being produced in 2002.

Ironically enough those "terrible" Jaguars that shared the Ford platform actually looked unique and where unmistakably Jaguars. No S type or X type look anything remotely like a Lincoln LS or Ford Mondeo which they where ignorantly linked to .....Now they have an all new platform and they have managed to make the XE look like an Audi. Not great at all.

Their quality today is the fruit of Fords work and money. Tata cars are not exactly known for their quality and craftsmanship, so let's not pretend like they brought all these great practices over from India because they did not.

The only thing that Ford was guilty of was stretching itself. Every time car-makers start doing that and absorbing multiple brands, the cars suffer, it's inevitable. That's the one silver lining with Tata, they only have Tata Cars, Daewoo and Jaguar to worry about .

 

100% agree that Jaguar Land Rover (now a subsidiary of TATA) are benefitting from the Ford era's inputs and disciplines. Time will tell what non-Ford era models will be like...

Somewhat sadly, the sales figures for Jaguar models are not too brilliant, whilst the Land Rover models are selling like crazy. LR on three shifts 7 days a week, assembly lines going fast. Jaguar on 1 shift, lines not that busy. Jaguar struggle to sell 40 to 50 thousand cars a year, absolutely minute compared with their positional rivals, Merc, BMW and Audi.

Jaguar are in a very competitive sector of the market with all the costs of tooling up and developing Merc, BMV, Audi comparable cars but none of the economies or cashflow and profit benefits to be derived from their large volumes. This is a very hard nut to crack. The latest Big Saloon Jaguar is a stupendous car, apparently, but it is not selling that well. No idea why not.

Greg

 

Whew, a lot of stuff here, huh!!!


As far as I know. Buick has been a part of GM since the 30's and probably before.


Well, the 216 Chev six was reliable, sorta. But, it's cylinder head design was far from advanced. Push it at 60 and it will burn a valve or two. Push it beyond and the rods will come loose. Don't ask!!


Now, the 235 looked the same and they were interchangeable. Much sturdier. But, an advanced design combustion chamber, I dunno. Toyota virtually copied it for the FJ40 series. Almost exact, but just different enough.


And the Taurus engine and platform are quite good. Even if the car was a tad boring.
A Jag tech put me on to that. "put each on a lift, and they are the same.


Ford not only over paid for Jaguar, but, invested a ton in manufacturing technology and especialy quality control.


As, I work on my 83 XJ wuzza six, I sympathize with he guys that built them and then those that serviced them. Teensy little nuts and bolts to hold the relay racks place!!! Only an example. Even a slot head here and there. Merely removing and affixing ghe console side panels1 Teensy Pozi screws for the vents!!


But, I still love my beast. Still wrestling with the start/run circuit!!! Jag meets GM, literally!


Like the starter relay. Individual wires to plug in to the pins of the relays. Other critters have a multi pin all weather connector!! Well, I am soldering in a multi pin connector to my generic 4 pin relay. Not all weather, but solid.


Yeah, lead time is a biggie in car making. Concept to the show room floor. Can't plan to match the competition, gotta plan to beat them. And get a product with shelf life.


We will see what goes in another five years as to Tata ownership.


Off to chores, then the soldering iron!!


Carl

 

My understanding is that LR is the glue holding JLR together. Jaguar alone is no-where near the numbers they achieved with the X300 and X308.....as a matter of fact it looks like they are selling around the same number of cars they where selling under Ford, with a spike due to the F type.

IMO, they went too radical. They alienated an entire customer base who bought Jaguars because they looked a certain way. When the XF came out I never imagined they would make every car look exactly like it. I thought they would have a mix of radical and traditional, but not this. My daily driver is an X type and unless something else comes out in the next couple of years, a new C class will be replacing it, since the C class still conveys a sense of what I like in a automobile. The new Jaguars except for the F type look like they where all made in the same Chinese toy factory where Audis are made. And I am under 33. Not over 85.

Not saying every car needs to look like a Daimler limo either , but I think they did not find a happy medium between the future and the past. Mercedes does this very well (in the US at least) by letting its customer buy a a much more traditional version of the same car with a three pointed star and traditional grill. I think I see more of the "traditional" style MB's around

 

Sorry- same as what?

 

As you say, Jaguar-only (as distinct from JLR) sales figures are VERY hard to come by. I am Interested, particularly from someone under 40, that you consider it to be fundamentally a styling problem, because I do too; but at double your age felt my instincts to be untrustworthy!

Top Gear (the UK motoring show) did a big item on the Big Saloon, and said exactly the same thing: Wonderful awe inspiring car, much better than the oppostion, BUT rubbish styling. They then went on to screen this (IMO) FANTASTIC styling suggestion from Bertone:







Link:
Stunning Jag concept car revealed - BBC Top Gear

If only. There is a theory that Ian Callum is not quite up to it, hard to say, but I do agree the saloon cars Jaguar currently make are not distinctive or beautiful enough;

Greg

 

Jag V6 I dunno know it's "letter' "S" or is it "X"? As to the Taurus and it's V6.




But, some vehemently deny it???


Carl

 

OOOPs.


wrong/


The "cheap" as if here we any such thing Jaguar four door little sedan.


Carl

 

Neither the X- or S- type share any significant components or design features with a Taurus much beyond each having four wheels.

A simple look underneath each vehicle would make this evident.

To say otherwise is like claming that an XJS and a Mustang are the same thing because they both have inline six cylinder engines, auto trans and are RWD.

 

Very true ,Mikey. I think the X type shared the most with some 12 percent with the Mondeo. Audi shares a much higher percentage with VW as do the Japanese "Luxury" brands. Someone evidently did a very good job of planting the seed in people's minds that Ford was just "reskinning" Tauruses, LS's and Mondeos and people are still repeating the false information today. The XF incidentally is still the same underpinnings as the maligned S type, but since Ford doesn't own them anymore, the agenda is over, so you don't hear that thrown out there any more.

 

Greg, for the life of me I do not understand how or why people kiss up to Ian Callum and his cobbled together unimaginative abortions. BOTH of his claims to fame; the DB7 and the F type which are beautiful, are in fact KEITH HELFET's Work!! The DB7 he made from HELFET's 80's F type which was axed as it took too long and the current production F type he has largely plagiarized from Helfets and Lawson's 2000 F type concept! The man fancies himself to be in the same league as Lyons, Sayer, Lawson or Helfet and he is no -where near. Had Helfet been made head of design as Sir William Lyons actually wanted, there would be very relevant, beautiful Jaguars today. Not a bunch of generic looking Audis in fancy grills

 

i kinda go with the flow on styling, some cars look good to me this year, in 1 1/2yrs they look old to me.

my take is in todays world just what would be breath taking? all the prototypes look old in a couple yrs.

most of todays younger car guys have already been programmed into what marketing and media shows them.

just look at what the prototype cars look like ,maybe its me but some look down right ugly.

we had a saying around the 90s cars all look like a JELLY BEAN just different colors!