Front end work - help needed!
#21
Update to the update...
Got it mostly put back together today. Aligning the stub shaft on the steering rack with the compression collar on the steering column was a real bugger! That took about 3 hours and about 8 different techniques before we finally got it right.
Had another joyful experience with the high and low pressure hoses. We foolishly thought we could attach them with the rack in place. Again, after trying about 8 different ways to thread the fitting into the rack, we broke down and removed the rack. Thankfully, nothing really moved when we dropped the rack and attached the hoses, so it went back together in a matter of minutes. Dodged a big one there - we were shaking in our boots at the thought of having to re-align the shaft and the column.
Didn't quite finish - still have to connect the ps reservoir to pump feed hose, re-attach the sway bar, tighten up the tie rod ends, fill and bleed the ps system and arrange the alignment and new tires. Hopefully, she'll be driving by the weekend.
Quite the learning experience, but proof positive that, with a couple of mechanically inclined friends, a service manual and the help of the Jag Forums community, even a hack like me can do some fairly intense auto repair. I can say for a fact that I would never have guessed I'd accomplish what's been done in my home garage. Can't thank you all enough, and for sure, I'll bring the factory alignment specs to the shop and ensure they are capable of doing the job properly. I wouldn't be too terribly sad if I just paid the piper and brought it to the local Jag dealer for a proper alignment (assuming the kids at the dealership have even seen, let alone worked on, an XJS!!).
Had another joyful experience with the high and low pressure hoses. We foolishly thought we could attach them with the rack in place. Again, after trying about 8 different ways to thread the fitting into the rack, we broke down and removed the rack. Thankfully, nothing really moved when we dropped the rack and attached the hoses, so it went back together in a matter of minutes. Dodged a big one there - we were shaking in our boots at the thought of having to re-align the shaft and the column.
Didn't quite finish - still have to connect the ps reservoir to pump feed hose, re-attach the sway bar, tighten up the tie rod ends, fill and bleed the ps system and arrange the alignment and new tires. Hopefully, she'll be driving by the weekend.
Quite the learning experience, but proof positive that, with a couple of mechanically inclined friends, a service manual and the help of the Jag Forums community, even a hack like me can do some fairly intense auto repair. I can say for a fact that I would never have guessed I'd accomplish what's been done in my home garage. Can't thank you all enough, and for sure, I'll bring the factory alignment specs to the shop and ensure they are capable of doing the job properly. I wouldn't be too terribly sad if I just paid the piper and brought it to the local Jag dealer for a proper alignment (assuming the kids at the dealership have even seen, let alone worked on, an XJS!!).
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Greg in France (06-15-2016)
#22
#23
I hear you regarding alignment quality... The problem is, because I messed up and dropped off the steering rack core with the old tie rod ends on it, I had very little frame of reference when it came to installing the new ones. I took a best guess and went with 12 turns of the tie rod end on each side, but was apparently well off the mark.
The car steered like it was on ice and the tires howled at around 15 mph. I could smell burned rubber about .5 miles into the trek and the passenger side tire was already pretty warm to the touch. That sealed the deal - I took it to the nearest shop with a digital alignment rack, which happens to be a Firestone tire shop 1 mile from my home. Not ideal, but at least they have the right alignment rack. I brought them the TSB for 1996 XJS alignment (thanks, Vee!!) and called the local Jaguar Dealer who told me the "mid-laden tool" is 150 lbs. each in both the driver and passenger front seat. That is a bit dicey, since the Firestone dealer doesn't have the mid-laden tool; they plan to do their best to approximate by having a couple of slender young lads who weigh close to 150 lbs. sit in the seats while they do the alignment. Imperfect for sure, but I saw a thread here (was it yours??) that discussed using a laser level and a barn door to do an alignment check. I imagine that didn't involve a mid-laden tool (or maybe that model didn't require one??). I can't say it'll be perfect, but it'll be better than it was!
Also, I'm buying new tires and the shop that will supply them does free tire inspections, so I can wheel in any day and they'll adjust air pressure and put a micrometer on the tires to check for irregular wear. If they see any, I'll head straight over to the Jaguar dealer and just pay the fee to get it done right (assuming the young lads at the dealership know any better what they're doing!!).
Does that sound like a reasonable plan, or should I just pay Firestone to get me to the point where I can drive the car to the local Jaguar dealership and have it done properly there? On a positive note, it was Firestone who called and told me they were skittish about doing the alignment w/o the mid-laden tool or at least a spec for how much weight was required. That was before I delivered the TSB, so they had some idea what they were getting into.. That made me a bit more comfortable. I owe a shout-out to the folks at Jaguar of Minneapolis for giving me the "mid-laden" spec - they didn't have to share, and I appreciate their willingness to help.
Last edited by davemack; 06-15-2016 at 07:13 PM.
#24
Go with the Firestone people. If they know what they are doing and the print out is OK all will be fine. As long as they centre the rack and adjust each side independently to get the toe, all will be well. Mid laden tools 100% bull, quite unnecessary, as is guys sitting in the car, so do not worry on that score.
If they are not sure the rack is centred (and remember the steering wheel may well NOT be when it is) there is a small grub screw which takes a 4mm Allen key just an inch or two to the side of the rack tower. Undo this and insert a probe gently against the rack and when it centres, as the steering wheel is moved gently back and forth around the central point, you will fell the probe go into a small indentation. This is the rack's central position.
In fact, these days, most laser setups involve the rack going to full lock left, then FL right, and the machine calculates the central position from this, so the above test is usually not needed.
Greg
If they are not sure the rack is centred (and remember the steering wheel may well NOT be when it is) there is a small grub screw which takes a 4mm Allen key just an inch or two to the side of the rack tower. Undo this and insert a probe gently against the rack and when it centres, as the steering wheel is moved gently back and forth around the central point, you will fell the probe go into a small indentation. This is the rack's central position.
In fact, these days, most laser setups involve the rack going to full lock left, then FL right, and the machine calculates the central position from this, so the above test is usually not needed.
Greg
Last edited by Greg in France; 06-16-2016 at 02:06 AM.
#25
Well, the folks at Firestone were willing but in the end, not quite able...
They didn't have the Jaguar shims required to set camber (or was it caster?). The Dodge minivans they usually service have simple washers for shims, whereas our cars have rather unique shims that reside next to the upper ball joints. That plus the whole mid-laden spec caused them to wave the white flag of surrender. They set the toe in, charged me $39 and said they were sure the car could make the trip to the Jaguar dealership for a complete alignment. To their credit, they did give it a try, and came clean when they hit the limit of their ability. Others might have done the toe-in and called it good enough...
So, I'll be taking it to the Jaguar dealer on Monday, then off to get new tires on Tuesday. No more fluids leaking under the car, so all seems well for the time being. I should be driving happily by Tuesday afternoon.
Still plan to replace the drive belts and valve cover gasket; I'll catch the oil cooler line O-rings at the next oil change (she's got a belly full of fresh oil that I'd hate to waste).
They didn't have the Jaguar shims required to set camber (or was it caster?). The Dodge minivans they usually service have simple washers for shims, whereas our cars have rather unique shims that reside next to the upper ball joints. That plus the whole mid-laden spec caused them to wave the white flag of surrender. They set the toe in, charged me $39 and said they were sure the car could make the trip to the Jaguar dealership for a complete alignment. To their credit, they did give it a try, and came clean when they hit the limit of their ability. Others might have done the toe-in and called it good enough...
So, I'll be taking it to the Jaguar dealer on Monday, then off to get new tires on Tuesday. No more fluids leaking under the car, so all seems well for the time being. I should be driving happily by Tuesday afternoon.
Still plan to replace the drive belts and valve cover gasket; I'll catch the oil cooler line O-rings at the next oil change (she's got a belly full of fresh oil that I'd hate to waste).
Last edited by davemack; 06-16-2016 at 11:12 PM.
#26
Well, the folks at Firestone were willing but in the end, not quite able...
They didn't have the Jaguar shims required to set camber (or was it caster?). The Dodge minivans they usually service have simple washers for shims, whereas our cars have rather unique shims that reside next to the upper ball joints. That plus the whole mid-laden spec caused them to wave the white flag of surrender.
They didn't have the Jaguar shims required to set camber (or was it caster?). The Dodge minivans they usually service have simple washers for shims, whereas our cars have rather unique shims that reside next to the upper ball joints. That plus the whole mid-laden spec caused them to wave the white flag of surrender.
And normal ride height rather than mid laden tools will do the job anyway. The jag specs for XJRS coupe actually directs not to use the tools so it can definitely be done without them
#27
As Baxtor mentioned, these are the castor shims: If you have them but did not note their position, then the Main Dealer can set it for you. If you do not have them, I doubt the MD will have any, so get some before you go. Castor is the fore and aft vertical "tilt" of the hinge formed by the two ball joints on which the hub turns; No 11 in the diagram
Wishbone-Front-Upper - Parts For XJS from (V)179737 to (V)226645 | Jaguar Classic Parts UK
The camber will not need resetting unless the subframe is bent.
Greg
Wishbone-Front-Upper - Parts For XJS from (V)179737 to (V)226645 | Jaguar Classic Parts UK
The camber will not need resetting unless the subframe is bent.
Greg
#28
Dave , you really need to get the new tyres before you get a wheel alignment , toe in has been reset , I doubt that camber and castor will be far off if you replaced the shims in original position unless it has something bent somewhere , highly unlikely given the condition of the car . Are you getting the tyres from the same mob that attempted wheel alignment if so I am surprised (understatement ) that they cannot do a full alignment !!!!
#29
I was going to say the same thing. It would be pointless to get an alignment before getting new tires.
Not sure where you're from (your account just references USA), but there are shops that specialize in alignments. Buying tires from TireRack, or similar, and having them shipped over could help make this an efficient one stop shop.
You should check for those shims. If they have been removed, it would be best to buy a few and have them on hand for your shop. I was never convinced that Jaguar would perform an alignment any differently than any other shop, and since the shims are NLA, it's a foregone conclusion that a dealer will not have any on hand.
In any case, make sure you get the tires THEN the alignment.
Not sure where you're from (your account just references USA), but there are shops that specialize in alignments. Buying tires from TireRack, or similar, and having them shipped over could help make this an efficient one stop shop.
You should check for those shims. If they have been removed, it would be best to buy a few and have them on hand for your shop. I was never convinced that Jaguar would perform an alignment any differently than any other shop, and since the shims are NLA, it's a foregone conclusion that a dealer will not have any on hand.
In any case, make sure you get the tires THEN the alignment.
#30
Thanks, guys. I was out of pocket this weekend, so I'm just reading your posts now. I tried calling the dealership this AM to ask about new tires prior to an alignment, but got put into voicemail twice... so I just drove it in and asked. The tech looked over the tires, and besides being a bit worn and dry rotted, he thought the wear was fairly even and there was enough tread to reliably do the alignment.
Just FYI, I did replace the shims in the same location they were removed. Funny, but the toe-in was off - not drastically (they have a bar graph to show the degree out of alignment), but that was the biggest adjustment. Camber and caster were very close as were the rears (one was dead 0.0 and the other was -0.2 degrees). He didn't feel like that was enough to take apart the rear hubs and add shims (I believe he said that would also cost more $).
Got the alignment done, then had the new tires mounted. Made sure the tire shop could do a dual plane balance with inside the wheel weights or tape on both inner and outer plane before I proceeded.
Drove it a bit afterward and the combo of the front end work, alignment and new tires made a HUGE difference. It wasn't the cheapest set of repairs, but it was worth the $.
I think I should be set for the time being. Of course, I already planned to replace the drive belts, oil line O-rings and valve cover gasket, and the Jag tech recommended a reservoir-style timing chain tensioner. He said he could hear a little chain rattle at start up (I can't, but he's got a better trained ear) and he said the tensioner is set as tight as it goes. He said a reservoir-style tensioner puts a little more oil on the chain at start up and will be sufficient, especially if it's a summer weekend driver (it is).
Thanks again for all of the helpful advice - it is much appreciated!
Just FYI, I did replace the shims in the same location they were removed. Funny, but the toe-in was off - not drastically (they have a bar graph to show the degree out of alignment), but that was the biggest adjustment. Camber and caster were very close as were the rears (one was dead 0.0 and the other was -0.2 degrees). He didn't feel like that was enough to take apart the rear hubs and add shims (I believe he said that would also cost more $).
Got the alignment done, then had the new tires mounted. Made sure the tire shop could do a dual plane balance with inside the wheel weights or tape on both inner and outer plane before I proceeded.
Drove it a bit afterward and the combo of the front end work, alignment and new tires made a HUGE difference. It wasn't the cheapest set of repairs, but it was worth the $.
I think I should be set for the time being. Of course, I already planned to replace the drive belts, oil line O-rings and valve cover gasket, and the Jag tech recommended a reservoir-style timing chain tensioner. He said he could hear a little chain rattle at start up (I can't, but he's got a better trained ear) and he said the tensioner is set as tight as it goes. He said a reservoir-style tensioner puts a little more oil on the chain at start up and will be sufficient, especially if it's a summer weekend driver (it is).
Thanks again for all of the helpful advice - it is much appreciated!
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John1949 (06-21-2016)
#31
Great news, good for you, once the setup is right, it is night and day different, isn't it. Forget the minor camber differences. If you want more negative rear camber, you remove shims from the driveshaft/diff joint, by the way, not add them. Also forget the chain rattle. Belt change a must though. Also, if you have not done the water hoses, them too. I seem to recall you have the 6 cylinder motor, if so and not already done by you, it is a must to change the water hose beneath the inlet manifold. This lets go with no warning and ALL the coolant escapes in seconds - normally when you are blasting past bother car! It is no. 4 in this diagram and comes straight off the back if the water pump.
Water Rail and Heater Return Pipe-4.0 Litre - Parts For XJS from (V)179737 to (V)226645 | Jaguar Classic Parts UK
Greg
Water Rail and Heater Return Pipe-4.0 Litre - Parts For XJS from (V)179737 to (V)226645 | Jaguar Classic Parts UK
Greg
#33
Great news, good for you, once the setup is right, it is night and day different, isn't it. Forget the minor camber differences. If you want more negative rear camber, you remove shims from the driveshaft/diff joint, by the way, not add them. Also forget the chain rattle. Belt change a must though. Also, if you have not done the water hoses, them too. I seem to recall you have the 6 cylinder motor, if so and not already done by you, it is a must to change the water hose beneath the inlet manifold. This lets go with no warning and ALL the coolant escapes in seconds - normally when you are blasting past bother car! It is no. 4 in this diagram and comes straight off the back if the water pump.
Water Rail and Heater Return Pipe-4.0 Litre - Parts For XJS from (V)179737 to (V)226645 | Jaguar Classic Parts UK
Greg
Water Rail and Heater Return Pipe-4.0 Litre - Parts For XJS from (V)179737 to (V)226645 | Jaguar Classic Parts UK
Greg
#34
I also had the help of my best friend, who had done a steering rack replacement before. He's a mechanical engineer, not an auto mechanic, but his mechanical sense was a major asset on this project.
And of course, all of you gents who gave advice, tips and insight were a major help in both working up the courage to even attempt a job like this, and to finish it off properly.
Thanks again to all - your counsel has been very helpful!
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Greg in France (06-22-2016)
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