Guys,

I'm a new member to this forum, but, some of you may know me from a dozen years of my presence on Jag-Lovers.

Tricky subject here, and I feel more than a little uncomfortable bringing this up, but...

A couple hours ago I noticed the thread "XJS 'HOW TO' quick links". There is a link to Kirby Palm's XJS Help Book on Jag-Lovers.org.

As a longtime member of Jag-Lovers, and in the interest of keeping this forum out of trouble, I have to ask an important legal question:

Has anyone here asked, and received permission to link to Jag-Lovers.org, or to use Kirby's book on this site?

Kirby has put countless hours into creating, and updating that book over the years, and it is filled with information from the Jag-Lovers forums. There may be some copyrights involved here.

Several years ago, there was another Jaguar forum which started up, and used materials gleaned from Jag-Lovers.org without their permission. It stirred up trouble between the two sites, which led to the other forum shutting down. I would hate to see that happen here.

I like this website a lot. However, I owe a huge debt of gratitude to Kirby, and my friends at Jag-Lovers, for all the help I have received there over the years, and I would feel like a traitor to them if I also use this forum, without knowing for certain that the Jag-Lovers links & info used here have been obtained with the full permission of Kirby and Jag-Lovers.

I hope you understand that I'm not trying to stir up trouble here. I just want to make sure that nobody's rights are being infringed upon, and that these two great websites can peacefully coexist. I would ask this same question if I saw material from this site being used elsewhere.

 

Disclaimer, I'm not a lawyer nor a representative of this or any other website, just a guy who is bored at work and can google.

The issue of linking something from another webpage is not settled law. However putting something up on the web that isn't behind password protection or some other barrier would seem to give implicit permission to provide access to that document and allow linking to it. Heck, most websites encourage or even seek out links to them. A web without links would be pretty lame, it's kind of the point.

Deep linking into a website behind what a user would be able to access through the website's normal homepage is a little iffier, but the law is heading in the direction of "if you post it, it's free game to link to for access." If someone put up a disclaimer specifically prohibiting deep linking (i.e. not to the homepage/frontpage), that may be a slightly different story but it seems like you've still got an uphill legal battle there.

Taking a document from someone else's website and putting it on your own server for distribution or cutting and pasting large sections of it (with or without acknowledgement) would be more clear violations of various copywright and usage laws.

The link in the "How To" section falls into the category of deep linking and appears kosher from a legal perspective. I do agree however that it is a poor move it points directly to the pdf file, whereas Jag-Lovers makes it pretty clear they want you to access the webpage the pdf link is posted on instead, which is this link here:

http://www.jag-lovers.org/xj-s/book/Jaguar.html

So whereas it may be legal to link directly to the pdf, I don't think it is very ethical and am in favor of changing to the link I posted above. Just my opinion.

Cheers,

- Will

 

Good point. I don't know the legalities but it merits some checking and asking, even if only as a courtesy, perhaps?

Offhand I don't think Kirby or J-L has a problem with it. The problem with the "other" Jaguar forum linking/using the material, circa 2003, was due, I think, to the fact that the other forum was formed by a group of J-L admins who were canned as a result of a very acrimonious internal dispute.

That group itself imploded very bitterly after of few months of internal strife.

Cheers
DD

 

Doug,

Good to see you here, and glad to have you weigh in on this since you are also a longterm member at J-L.

One of the admins here PM'd me and said it would be looked into. I sent them Kirby's email addy, so they could personally ask him, if they wish to do so.

I kinda don't think Kirby would have a problem with linking to his book either, but, I wasn't sure how some of the admins at J-L might view it, since much of the info was from user posts at J-L.

 

I did find this at the bottom of the J-L homepage:

Mirroring or downloading of this site or the publication of material or any extracts therefrom in original or altered form from these pages onto other sites (including reproduction by any other Jaguar enthusiast sites) without express permission violates Jag-lovers Ltd copyright and is prohibited

 

I too am a member of J-L and have been for years. Legally there is nothing wrong with linking to "The book". When I refer someone to the book I do not send the link but rather just suggest it be downloaded. If J-L has a problem with a link to their site from an external site then they should consider making a "members only" section and password protecting those pages. I would suspect if a person was referred to the J-L web site they would join since it is a great wealth of knowledge different from here. If you send a link then the person will just download it rather than explore the site.

 

I have nothing to add except that if Jag-Lovers were to update the antiquated forum interface, I would visit more often.

Also, JagZilla, have you dynoed your car? What kind of numbers are you making? Do you find the upgrades worthwhile?

Cheers

 

That disclaimer covers situations where a website distributes the material from their own internal servers, or puts up material wholesale from the Book, etc. This case of posting a direct link to the book is not the same situation.

Cheers,

- Will

 

I haven't dynoed the motor as it sits in my 84, because it is still in project form. I have harvested the majority of these upgrades from a wrecked 89 convertible which which I purchased from another Jag Lovers member. I have been pulling them out of that car, and fitting them into my 84 for the past few years. Right now, I have pretty much finished dressing things up (paint and powder coating), and installing everything except the interior and the Electromotive Unit. It's quite a task to trace all the wires from that unit and figure out how and where I will splice them into my car's current wiring.

That said, the previous owner tuned the 89 on a chassis dyno until it was producing 395 HP at the rear wheels. The car was hit by another driver a few months later. I'm anxious to see how that number translates into real world performance in my 84 coupe.

 

395 at the rear wheels. NOICE