Guys
Like most of us, my engine sump pan "sweats" oil from all over. Not much in the way of drips, but it is always oil-damp. I refitted the sump pan very carefully in 2010 as part of my car's rebuild, and it has not been off since then.
Anyway, lots of other more major things having been fixed in the last two years, it was time to do something about the sump. What got me thinking and hoping was Rescue's thread where he extolled the virtues of "The Right Stuff" (TRS from now on). Luckily for me I did not do the job straight away as a few days later he told us all that TRS makes a bond so strong you cannot get the oil pans off! Particularly so with a pressed steel, rather than aluminium cast pan.
Now the reason V12 sumps leak is fundamentally because the sealing rim on the pressed steel pan is neither flat, nor rigid enough, to sustain an oil-tight join. A nice cast ally pan would render all the below fix unnecessary. Anyway, as I said, Rescue got me thinking, and this is my fix for this fundamental fault in the oil pan to engine seal.

1. I removed the sump pan and very carefully cleaned it with white spirit, and roughed up the sealing surface with emery paper for a good key.
2. I ordered up a sheet of 4mm thick glass, 50 cm x 50 cm. This to give me a dead flat surface to use. Sheet glass is about the flattest surface you can get in ordinary life.
3. I ordered up a genuine Jaguar goretex/metal/goretex sandwich sump gasket.
4. I bought some TRS 90 minute gasket maker, as the 5 minute version would go off too fast.
5. Using about a 4mm bead, I squeezed TRS round the sump flange as shown in the pic sequence below. TRS in its tube is quite firm to start with, and the tube needs a good firm continuous squeeze to get it out.
6. Then using some rods and the assistance of Madame, we dropped the gasket onto the sump pan exactly over the holes.
7. Then we placed the flat sheet of glass on the clean top-surface of the gasket and lightly pressed it down to push the bead of TRS into full contact with the pan flange and ONE SIDE ONLY of the gasket. Quite a firm push was needed to ensure all-round contact was made - the stuff is pretty thick
8. The stuff squidged out a bit, so the glass was carefully pushed up using a bolt from below, and garage paper was used to VERY carefully wipe the edges downwards, away from the clean, top-surface of the gasket. Any stuff in the actual bolt holes was cleaned out using a rod.
9. Then the glass was reversed (as the side that had been in contact had some stuff on it from the squidging) and placed back on the clean top-surface of the gasket.
10. It is left for an hour or two to go off.

The idea is that I am creating what is, in effect, a flat-machined surface, converting a pressed pan into something that approaches a machined cast one. This by utilising the properties of TRS. I should now have:
A permanent, but slightly flexible seal between the pan flange and the pan side ONLY of the gasket;
A dead flat surface on the engine side of the gasket, thanks to the glass;
Once all cured, I can fit the pan back to the machined flange on the engine, and this will ensure (with the addition of a dressing of "GasketCinch") a far better seal - akin to that between a cast oil sump and an engine block.

I have also very carefully cleaned up all the sump pan bolts, and let the open engine drain for 48 hours, and will very carefully clean up the engine flange with brake cleaner and acetone immediately before fitting the modified pan. I will report back on success after a few trips in the car.

This is what is under the sump pan

Sump bolts in a cardboard template as they are different lengths

Cleaned up sump pan ready

The Right Stuff 90 minute version on the flange

All done, the stuff is thick and not easy to squeeze out

Lovely new goretex/metal/goretex gasket

Gasket carefully placed on the sump flange.

Rods used to centralise holes and to help lower the gasket onto the pan

Glass down on the pan, it is pressed firmly in place. Then lift the glass by carefully poking it up through the sump bolt holes from below. Clean up any extra squidged TRS with garage paper, wiping downwards from the gasket. Flip over the glass to the clean side a replace. leave to go off for an hour or two.

You can see the lovely flat surface of the gasket, dead flat against the glass

All done, just waiting.

Finished article lovely and flat


I shall dress the engine side of the gasket with this stuff, which is magic and makes even paper gaskets oiltight. Also, I shall use thread sealer on all the bolts, which have been cleaned, as oil migrates down the threads to the bolt heads and out.

In future, when the sump has to be removed, the gasket should come away from the engine at the top surface of the gasket, and the actual gasket stay permanently bonded to the pan flange. The idea is that the gasket top surface will act as a cast machined flange, it might need cleaning up a bit, but it should be reuseable, in effect forming a permanently flat sealing surface.

 

Wow thats great idea. Could do that with the tranny pan as well.

The weathers been too hot for me to working in the garage so I haven't attempted to remove.my tranny pan yet with the heat gun. Maybe this afternoon now that the heatwave has passed.

 

Forgot to mention I've read people doing this with rubber gaskets as well. Get about 4 uses put of them which really is awhile.

 

I think it would work with any gasket, providing one side of the join is a machined surface.

 

Sitrep:
This fix works. My engine sump pan and bolts are bone dry. I am extremely pleased with the mod. I also used a Dowty washer on the sump plug in place of the normal copper washer, which also is better.
http://www.potterassoc.com/pdf/bonde...zing_chart.pdf

 

Amazing work, Greg! I have a big old piece of plate glass, here on a table...

I just replaced the oil pan gasket on the 928 with a rubber/silicon gasket. Thick and huge. The sump pan on the 928 is as long as the entire base of the engine. Had to drop the subframe to get at it. Good time for motor mounts then as well.

Is there a reason a silicone gasket (one piece) would not work if cut to shape? The only thing that I can think might prove difficult is punching out all the small bolt holes. Maybe a piece of tubing with a sharpened edge used with a hammer to punch holes into it?

I REALLY like the feel of the rubber/silicone gasket as a gasket for the 928. Cost a bit, but it seems bullet proof.

 

No idea, but the sealing problem in the V12's case is that the pressed steel sump pan does not give an even clamp to the gasket. If the sump pan was a piece of cast ally, with a nicely machined flange, you could seal it with a normal gasket and nothing else. The point of my mod is to ensure that there is a flat, properly supported gasket against the engine block. The Right Stuff/glass idea is to ensure this is the case by supporting the gasket flat, but also below the gasket the Right Stuff deforms to the pressed steel flange, thus melding the two permanently; but still providing a dead flat sealing surface against the block.

 

Also as a further benefit of using this method 50cmx50cm x 4 mm glass is standard size in most sheds. You are therefore left with a spare pane when nextdoors kid puts his ball through the window! Win win I say. Top job Greg.

 

In other words, you are saying you intentionally disabled the factory anti-rust system?

 

You mentioned that oil was dripping off the bolts, but I will mention it some more. It was clear when I resealed the pan on my car, that most of the oil was wicking down the long pan bolts from up toward the top of the aluminum upper pan. I cleaned the bolts and holes while they were out and I used teflon pipe thread sealant on the long bolt threads, and also on both sides of the washers under the bolt heads. So far, everything is dry. I think I could have eliminated 90%+ of my leakage by just removing the long bolts and sealing them.

 

Indeed. The Great Palm says how important this is, and my bolts were indeed sealed prior to this mod. GaskaCinch is also recommened on the bottle for thread sealing, and I used it this time as the sealant and it works.

 

i will second that. I changed a gasket when I think it was the bolts. Also used thread tape and now all is well.

 

3rd. Thread sealer used. Only place I don't have oil leaks now

 

Hello.

Hello everybody.
I am new to the forum and I am very interested in this method of reframing a new gasket for a Pan.
I just finished the total restoration of a E type Jaguar V12 and I have a permanent leak on the gasket pan of my automatic gear box.
I would like how long did you let your preparation waiting to be completly dry before to put it in place under your car.
​​​​​​What torque was applied to the screws when tightening?
S



ome photos of my car

Thank you in advance for your answer.

 

The Right Stuff 90 goes off in 90 mins, but I left it overnight. Use Gascacinch on the basket/gearbox joint. 20 ft llbs will be fine, but a drop of blue loctite is recommended.

 

Hello Greg.

I thank you for your answer, but I have a last question.
Did you put your gasket in oil before to put it on the rubber under the glass?
That’s four times I’ve dismantled the pan and drained completely the gearbox because of this leak!
Was only few drops in a week but it is impossible for me to let that leak on my car.
I have 2 pans with a different design and I get the same problem with the both, but the gear box surface plan is real perfect without cracks or deformation.
This week I resurfaced the surface plan on the original pan to get a best contact with the basket gearbox. It was hard work to get a satisfactory result because the housing was well deformed.
I wait a new gasket bought this week on Ebay and I will start the work in perfect accordance with your post.
The Gascacinch was bought this morning.
Thank you in advance for your advice and answer.
Waiting your reply.
Philikat.

 

From what you write I am not sure you 100% understand the reason for the Right Stuff. Apologies if I have misunderstood your question. The pressed steel pans leak because they do not present a flat surface, AND because when tightened they deform.

• The right stuff is placed on the cleaned and dry pressed steel pan mating surface. The pan must be 100% clean and dry and oil free. Put it in the dishwasher to be sure!
• Then an OEM sump gasket (which is a steel-cored gortex type) is placed upon the Right Stuff. This gasket MUST be 100% dry, NO oil or grease or anything on it, or it will not form a proper bond with the Right Stuff.
• Then the glass is placed on the gasket and pushed down firmly - which ensures the gasket is completely flat.
• Then leave the assmebly to cure completely somewhere warm for 24 hours.

In this way once the Right Stuff has cured (and it cures much harder than normal gasket stuff) you have a solid surface UNDER the gasket. So when the assembly is bolted up to the machined surface of the engine, it acts like two machined surfaces coming together and does not deform as the bolts are tightened.

Now, in the case of your gearbox, what sort of gasket do you have available? Assuming you have a good quality gasket, the above procedure should work, as one side the gasket will be firmly joined to the Right Stuff AND the other side will be against the machined gearbox surface and with gascacinch will not leak. If there IS a leak, it will be because the gasket itself is poor quality, or the glass was not firmly against the gasket/Right Stuff/pan joint so as to ensure it was flat while the Right Stuff was setting. Once all is solid, the sump pan has for all sealing purposes, a solid undeformable rim under the gasket.

When removing the pan at a later time, carefully prise the the gasket surface where it is against the gearbox and the sump plus gasket will come away with the gasket remaining firmly fixed to the pan, and the assembly can be reused as-is unless it is torn, which it should not be if you have been careful.

NOTE: the Right Stuff must go all round the bolt holes, not just one side of them. If your bolts go into holes in the gearbox that are open to the gearbox oil, then you must use sealer on the bolt threads.

 

Hi Greg.
Thank you for your advice and your time.
Your remarks are really clear and I agree completely with your definition for this problem.
I bought two times, 2 different gaskets on Barratt web site, and I have to admit they were not so good quality. The first one was in Cork and the second in thick and rigid paper.
I wait one other and I suppose it will be in OEM but I'm not sure,there wasn't specification but it looks like.
They are not many choices for this kind of gasket on the market for this Borg Warner automatic Gear Box
I also thought to reinforce with a long iron flat 4 mm thick and 16 mm large the entire joint plane, cut especially, and to insert it under the screws to get a good pressure everywhere and avoid deformation. But I’m not sure it really serves with if I use your method.
Take a look at the photo join and the little drawing I put on the photo to explain what I want to do with the flat Iron 4mm thick.
Excuse me if I made some mistakes, my English is a little rusty !
Thanks again Greg.

Kind regards


Cleaned and surfaced PAN

Reinforce project

 

OK
Forget the iron, the Right Stuff will do the job if applied as described.
Your problem is the gasket material, paper is hopeless, and cork is also unreliable.
What exact model of Borg Warner auto box is on your car (incidentally, lovely looking car!). Try a google search for a Fel Pro brand gasket for it. These are much better. Or ask on the E Type section for recommended gaskets.
I am not that far frpm Montlucon, near Digoin, so maybe you can show me the oil tight finished job!

 

Good morning Greg.

My gear box is a Borg Warner 3 speeds serial number 10-003-000-010 Model 12 build at 1971.
I bought the last Pan gasket by Internet and I was just looking for some details and was written FEL PRO Gasket Ref TOS 18106 and after many researches it is the good reference for this automatic BW gear box.
Yet I will wait this gasket and finalize different details on MY E Type.
Thanks for your help and soon i will give some news...............good news I hope!

Kind regards.

Philikat