pickup coil
#21
06-01-2012, 04:48 AM
No misfire is good. I would still be looking at the injectors with care, as this is a "port injection" engine, so as long as there is fuel behind the inlet valve when it opens the engine will run, and run well at idle only,with NO misfiring, providing that there is NOT too much fuel sitting there. I trust that makes sense to you, as it is crystal clear to me.
The exhaust does still concern me a tad. If, when it runs you have "equal" pulsing on your hand before it chokes out, may deem it OK, but the cats may be swelling as they heat up???, dunno, we dont run them down here.
#22
06-01-2012, 06:34 AM
OK,
The 5 minutes (give or take) at a time prior to dying has me thinking of many things.
The running you describe is definately an overfuel issue. Now that can only come via the injectors/FPR's in your case.
The fuel pressure regulators can suck fuel, as you more than likely know, so I will assume that you have checked them, and/or replaced them with new, or a mechanical type on the LH side only.
The 5 minutes (give or take) at a time prior to dying has me thinking of many things.
The running you describe is definately an overfuel issue. Now that can only come via the injectors/FPR's in your case.
The fuel pressure regulators can suck fuel, as you more than likely know, so I will assume that you have checked them, and/or replaced them with new, or a mechanical type on the LH side only.
A cross connection in the EFI loom could also cause this.
Retarded base timing also comes into mind.
Crossed wires from the CTS/TPS to and from the ECU pin out.
OK, so applying "false" vac to the ECU does little or nothing tells me that you are correct, all your ECU's are OK.
That tells me that the ingesting of fuel is beyond the control of the electronics. This may be:
Wrong injectors. By that I mean that the person who serviced them (if that was done) may have got it wrong, VERY doubtful, just saying. The HE injectors have a "beige" plastic infill, and the PreHE have "green" infill. Some aftermarket I have come across in HE engines are "blue" and flow waaaay too much fuel.
Wrong injectors. By that I mean that the person who serviced them (if that was done) may have got it wrong, VERY doubtful, just saying. The HE injectors have a "beige" plastic infill, and the PreHE have "green" infill. Some aftermarket I have come across in HE engines are "blue" and flow waaaay too much fuel.
The FPR's are leaking (common).
The CTS is waaaaaay out of range at some points of its resistance (rare/commonish).
The TPS is just plain OFF (common).
As you said, maybe a blocked exhaust, which after reading a tad further I doubt, only due to your comment about equal noise from each pipe??.
Cam timing is out of whack (common), and/or the timing chain tensioner is broken (common now, and especially if some fool has wound the engine backwards).
If you are running it with the air cleaner backings removed (some do), have you put the bolts in place to block the holes mmm.
Fuel pressure is too high. Mine runs a mechanical FPR (LH side only), and I have it set at 29psi, and it is sweet. About 2 psi either side of that and I have engine issues, mainly on the + side. At 33psi it just "bogs down".
#23
06-01-2012, 09:24 AM
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#25
06-01-2012, 04:59 PM
Have you removed all the endless vac tube bits and pieces and just connected the vac capsule directly to the small port underneath the A bank intake throttle body?
Greg
Greg
#26
06-01-2012, 06:41 PM
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Seriously?
No offense meant here but the suggestion of checking fuel pressure (a perfectly logical step in over-fueling diagnosis) has been mentioned several times. IMHO it has to be eliminated as a possibility.
Hard to believe that you've been thru hell and high water for weeks, spent god-knows-how-much money, taken the time for dozens of postings on two forums..... and yet have skipped this obvious step due to a reluctance to, of all things, cut into a 6" piece of rubber fuel line.
Do it and get it over and done with.....and maybe, just maybe, discover the cause of your problem !
Cheers
DD
#27
06-01-2012, 07:21 PM
Veteran Member
Nowhere in your opening post is it stated that you checked your wiring, or that you know it fires in groups of three.
Even if it had been stated, if someone misses it, so be it. This is a forum, not a paid professional consultation.
#28
06-01-2012, 08:25 PM
This will pass exactly this one time and not again.
Nowhere in your opening post is it stated that you checked your wiring, or that you know it fires in groups of three.
Even if it had been stated, if someone misses it, so be it. This is a forum, not a paid professional consultation.
Nowhere in your opening post is it stated that you checked your wiring, or that you know it fires in groups of three.
Even if it had been stated, if someone misses it, so be it. This is a forum, not a paid professional consultation.
that was in no way aimed at the forum or any other member. it was aimed specifically at Greg for his repeated nasty and condescending posts on this and other threads.
Last edited by M90power; 06-01-2012 at 08:44 PM.
#29
06-01-2012, 08:35 PM
heres an interesting tidbit.
a few days ago i was listening to the injector pulses while nearing the 5 minute mark. i goosed the throttle a couple of times while listening to pulses increase and decrease. about the 3rd or 4th time i jabbed the gas, the pulses started to increase, the RPMs shot up to about 3k, and the injector pulses dropped way off to about 2/sec. the RPMS dropped like a hammer after this response from the injectors, and the engine died.
seems to me like the injector signal or driver dissapeared.
i havent got a fuel pressure gauge. i started to order an autometer dash mounted unit from amazon, but put it off.
ive got some reservations about hacking up the fuel hoses, and although ive read the "high fuel pressure" thread twice, im still sketchy on exactly how it needs to be spliced in to get a proper reading.
everything ive done so far needed doing anyways.
a few days ago i was listening to the injector pulses while nearing the 5 minute mark. i goosed the throttle a couple of times while listening to pulses increase and decrease. about the 3rd or 4th time i jabbed the gas, the pulses started to increase, the RPMs shot up to about 3k, and the injector pulses dropped way off to about 2/sec. the RPMS dropped like a hammer after this response from the injectors, and the engine died.
seems to me like the injector signal or driver dissapeared.
Seriously?
No offense meant here but the suggestion of checking fuel pressure (a perfectly logical step in over-fueling diagnosis) has been mentioned several times. IMHO it has to be eliminated as a possibility.
Hard to believe that you've been thru hell and high water for weeks, spent god-knows-how-much money, taken the time for dozens of postings on two forums..... and yet have skipped this obvious step due to a reluctance to, of all things, cut into a 6" piece of rubber fuel line.
Do it and get it over and done with.....and maybe, just maybe, discover the cause of your problem !
Cheers
DD
No offense meant here but the suggestion of checking fuel pressure (a perfectly logical step in over-fueling diagnosis) has been mentioned several times. IMHO it has to be eliminated as a possibility.
Hard to believe that you've been thru hell and high water for weeks, spent god-knows-how-much money, taken the time for dozens of postings on two forums..... and yet have skipped this obvious step due to a reluctance to, of all things, cut into a 6" piece of rubber fuel line.
Do it and get it over and done with.....and maybe, just maybe, discover the cause of your problem !
Cheers
DD
ive got some reservations about hacking up the fuel hoses, and although ive read the "high fuel pressure" thread twice, im still sketchy on exactly how it needs to be spliced in to get a proper reading.
everything ive done so far needed doing anyways.
Last edited by M90power; 06-01-2012 at 08:49 PM.
#30
06-01-2012, 09:53 PM
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On the left side of the fuel rail there's a pipe/hose with a threaded fitting attaching it to the fuel rail. Cut the hose and "Tee" in your fuel pressure gauge.
When it's all said and done the hose is easily replaced: just use a hacksaw to carefully cut away the crimped collars to reveal barbed nipples. Press your new hose onto the barbs and your done. It'll hold, no problem. Using those little "ferrule" caps (like you have on the hoses to the fuel injectors is a nice finishing touch if you have some extras....but they aren't strictly required
Cheers
DD
#31
06-01-2012, 10:21 PM
This will pass exactly this one time and not again.
Nowhere in your opening post is it stated that you checked your wiring, or that you know it fires in groups of three.
Even if it had been stated, if someone misses it, so be it. This is a forum, not a paid professional consultation.
Nowhere in your opening post is it stated that you checked your wiring, or that you know it fires in groups of three.
Even if it had been stated, if someone misses it, so be it. This is a forum, not a paid professional consultation.
Thank you. I have offered advice on here and the telephone. This problem has been spread over several threads. It is very hard to piece together a coherent progression and diagnostic approach when replies are spread across 2 forums and multiple threads.
No worries as I am done offering assistance as is another person from the other forum.
#33
06-02-2012, 07:12 AM
MMMM, 0.38v at idle is not going to get the ECU fueling map into the idle spectrum. I tried numerous Ford TPS units here 15 years ago, and NONE in OZ gave me the 0.34v required to get idle fuel. So effectively the ECU is getting an electrical signal that is "above" idle spec, so provides fuel to suit, but the butterflies are at idle, 0.002" gap, plus the bleed from the AAV. That would give a very rich mixture in my opinion.
The fuel pressure too high is quite high on my suspect list now.
Timing set "as far as the adjustment allows" means absolutely SQUAT.
The base timing (static in some parts of the world) should be set at about 10deg BTDC, with the adjuster set at the midway mark, plus a touch towards "retard", which will give you some scope for more advance, which is more than likely going to be needed, and that may require lifting the distributor to re-align the thing, a right pain, but if that base timing is not pre set, time is wasted, sorry, that is just how it is.
DO NOT rely on the timing marker under the front pulley, it is slotted, and could be mounted anywhere, so 1A sparker OUT, hand turn until compression is felt, then a wire probe down the hole, and CAREFULLY hand turn until that piston is at TDC, NOW position the timing plate to read ZERO. Now hand turn it again, until compression stroke is coming up once more, and line up about 10deg on that plate, DONE. Now you can set the distributor to that timing.
It WILL NOT be spot on, but so close. The fine tune of the timing can be done much later, on the road.
I dont listen to injector pulsing, never bothered, so no assist in that area. I reckon basics are out way more so than edgy items like that.
The fuel pressure too high is quite high on my suspect list now.
Timing set "as far as the adjustment allows" means absolutely SQUAT.
The base timing (static in some parts of the world) should be set at about 10deg BTDC, with the adjuster set at the midway mark, plus a touch towards "retard", which will give you some scope for more advance, which is more than likely going to be needed, and that may require lifting the distributor to re-align the thing, a right pain, but if that base timing is not pre set, time is wasted, sorry, that is just how it is.
DO NOT rely on the timing marker under the front pulley, it is slotted, and could be mounted anywhere, so 1A sparker OUT, hand turn until compression is felt, then a wire probe down the hole, and CAREFULLY hand turn until that piston is at TDC, NOW position the timing plate to read ZERO. Now hand turn it again, until compression stroke is coming up once more, and line up about 10deg on that plate, DONE. Now you can set the distributor to that timing.
It WILL NOT be spot on, but so close. The fine tune of the timing can be done much later, on the road.
I dont listen to injector pulsing, never bothered, so no assist in that area. I reckon basics are out way more so than edgy items like that.
Last edited by Grant Francis; 06-02-2012 at 07:16 AM.
#34
06-02-2012, 05:11 PM
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#35
06-02-2012, 06:36 PM
#36
06-03-2012, 06:59 AM
All I know is that if the idle TPS voltage is outside the 0.32-0.36 range the ECU is not able to "drop into" the idle fueling map.
Waaaaay back I used a Mazda TPS on mine until a s/h XJ40 3.6ltr appeared. Worked well apart from the small lag it had due to the pin type adaptor I used to drive it, but it easily gave me the idle split I needed.
Another here used a GM one of some sort, got it out of a box of TPS's at a wrecking yard, still using it I think, that was about 8 years ago.
#37
06-03-2012, 08:02 AM
OK, at the risk of getting yelled/sworn at I will continue to answer until I feel I am fighting a brick wall.
I AM NOT A GENIUS, I am a grumpy OLD man with NO tolerence of anger towards cars, coz they are not responsible for the issues. That sits squarely with LOUSY maintenence for 20+ years (in the XJ-S case), and now you and me as enthusiasts MUST get it right, BUT, fair dinkum, it will not happen overnight, and may not be right the first time.
I am not going to go read all your posts on this saga, so if I repeat something you know/have done/ have rechecked. SO BE IT.
Um, I agree with 5 galls with 30 odd minutes of workshop running a tad excessive. I am surprised it ran for that long at all if it is actually overfueling that much, and that you are still breathing.
The resistor packs as such are super reliable. In the 7odd I have rewired from engine fires the resistor pack has always survived, as has the ECU itself.
The plastic multi pin plug in the bottom of the resistor pack is super UN-reliable, and spreading the pins with a razor blade (careful of the fingers) generally re-instates contact.
Cold start injectors (if you have them) dribble like a baby, and I ALWAYS remove them and plate the holes.
Again if I repeat what you already know, so be it.
The vac hose from the balance pipe TO the ECU can be an issue. It is a metal pipe under the car, so hoses each end, simple. It can get damaged, and the hoses can split. The hose in the boot "may" have a black plastic cylinder in it, which is a moisture trap, they crack.
One I did a long time ago, really tested my brain. It turned out to have little/no vac to the ECU. Overfuelled seriously bad. Found this by attaching a syringe to the ECU spigot via a hose, and applying vac, started the engine, and by operating the syringe, I was able to simulate RICH and LEAN fueling very easily, which eliminated the MAP sensor INSIDE the ECU. The NO vac was due to fire extinguisher foam down the hose at the front, due to the fire, and blocked the thing. Took 3 days to sort that one????.
Remember that the less vac the ECU sees the more fuel it supplies.
Inside the ECU is a small hose that goes from that vac spigot to the MAP sensor, and they do split, mine did, and the MAP sensors themselves can fail, but that is rare in my opinion.
I AM NOT A GENIUS, I am a grumpy OLD man with NO tolerence of anger towards cars, coz they are not responsible for the issues. That sits squarely with LOUSY maintenence for 20+ years (in the XJ-S case), and now you and me as enthusiasts MUST get it right, BUT, fair dinkum, it will not happen overnight, and may not be right the first time.
I am not going to go read all your posts on this saga, so if I repeat something you know/have done/ have rechecked. SO BE IT.
Um, I agree with 5 galls with 30 odd minutes of workshop running a tad excessive. I am surprised it ran for that long at all if it is actually overfueling that much, and that you are still breathing.
The resistor packs as such are super reliable. In the 7odd I have rewired from engine fires the resistor pack has always survived, as has the ECU itself.
The plastic multi pin plug in the bottom of the resistor pack is super UN-reliable, and spreading the pins with a razor blade (careful of the fingers) generally re-instates contact.
Cold start injectors (if you have them) dribble like a baby, and I ALWAYS remove them and plate the holes.
Again if I repeat what you already know, so be it.
The vac hose from the balance pipe TO the ECU can be an issue. It is a metal pipe under the car, so hoses each end, simple. It can get damaged, and the hoses can split. The hose in the boot "may" have a black plastic cylinder in it, which is a moisture trap, they crack.
One I did a long time ago, really tested my brain. It turned out to have little/no vac to the ECU. Overfuelled seriously bad. Found this by attaching a syringe to the ECU spigot via a hose, and applying vac, started the engine, and by operating the syringe, I was able to simulate RICH and LEAN fueling very easily, which eliminated the MAP sensor INSIDE the ECU. The NO vac was due to fire extinguisher foam down the hose at the front, due to the fire, and blocked the thing. Took 3 days to sort that one????.
Remember that the less vac the ECU sees the more fuel it supplies.
Inside the ECU is a small hose that goes from that vac spigot to the MAP sensor, and they do split, mine did, and the MAP sensors themselves can fail, but that is rare in my opinion.
I'd rather be surrounded by grumpy old auzzies, then happy young democrats
#38
06-03-2012, 10:11 AM
I have read that.
All I know is that if the idle TPS voltage is outside the 0.32-0.36 range the ECU is not able to "drop into" the idle fueling map.
Waaaaay back I used a Mazda TPS on mine until a s/h XJ40 3.6ltr appeared. Worked well apart from the small lag it had due to the pin type adaptor I used to drive it, but it easily gave me the idle split I needed.
Another here used a GM one of some sort, got it out of a box of TPS's at a wrecking yard, still using it I think, that was about 8 years ago.
All I know is that if the idle TPS voltage is outside the 0.32-0.36 range the ECU is not able to "drop into" the idle fueling map.
Waaaaay back I used a Mazda TPS on mine until a s/h XJ40 3.6ltr appeared. Worked well apart from the small lag it had due to the pin type adaptor I used to drive it, but it easily gave me the idle split I needed.
Another here used a GM one of some sort, got it out of a box of TPS's at a wrecking yard, still using it I think, that was about 8 years ago.
#39
06-03-2012, 10:59 AM
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Here's a excerpt from one of my old postings on the Mustang TPS:
"The Ford TPS has a range of .38 to 4.80 volts. The .38 is a whisker higher
than the ideal closed throttle setting (on an HE) of .32-.36 volts
(depending who you are talking to) but, as far as driving the car goes, it
is great. Whether or not this difference is enough to be worrisome during an
emissions test, I can't say."
It's a rare day indeed that I'd question anything suggested by Grant. However, I don't think that .38 volts is significant here.
If you're using, what is it? 5 gallons of fuel? in one hour of running at idle, your fighting a *gross* over-fueling problem. Just my 2-cents but I really don't think .38 volts at idle is gonna do that, especially in light of how well mine ran with .38 volts at idle.
But, anyhow, maybe you can remove the TPS, open it up, and physically modify it so as to allow a fraction more movement of the wiper arm on the resistance track....if there's any more track available on the bottom end of the scale, if you get what I mean.
Cheers
DD
"The Ford TPS has a range of .38 to 4.80 volts. The .38 is a whisker higher
than the ideal closed throttle setting (on an HE) of .32-.36 volts
(depending who you are talking to) but, as far as driving the car goes, it
is great. Whether or not this difference is enough to be worrisome during an
emissions test, I can't say."
It's a rare day indeed that I'd question anything suggested by Grant. However, I don't think that .38 volts is significant here.
If you're using, what is it? 5 gallons of fuel? in one hour of running at idle, your fighting a *gross* over-fueling problem. Just my 2-cents but I really don't think .38 volts at idle is gonna do that, especially in light of how well mine ran with .38 volts at idle.
But, anyhow, maybe you can remove the TPS, open it up, and physically modify it so as to allow a fraction more movement of the wiper arm on the resistance track....if there's any more track available on the bottom end of the scale, if you get what I mean.
Cheers
DD
#40
06-03-2012, 11:04 AM
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