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That really depends on you. If you want to write a check to have it restored, just be aware that the finished cost will be multiples of its value if sold.
If you do it yourself and are very skilled, you might only have 50% more than it’s market value in parts and about 3000 man hours of unpaid time.
If you are skilled you might be able to make it a driver quality for something less than it’s market value.
What about racing? Either a Vintage race car, , A tribute car of a racer, or a track day car.
All of those are not only affordable but possible to be profitable. Again depending on you.
To be continued•••••••
I have been part of historical stuff forever, with my father collecting trucks, cars, bikes, farm equipment and everything else when they were being discarded for scrap metal.
Regarding cars - the rules were simple, They had to be rust free and complete (could be in parts). They then came home and sat in sheds until someone expressed interest in them (just like all the other stuff). Apart from mechanical work as in getting them going when possible -.no other work was done.
My parents are now in their late 70/early 80's and his "special" cars are now on the market, and the prices he is getting is unbelievable.
So the moral of the above story - buy then cheap - store them for 40 years and then sell them for profit.
I have no farm - just a city block - so this method will not work for me. I have 1 classic (my Jag) and 1 very special car on the farm still which will come home when the farm is sold. I view them as my stress relief, and then my unemployment hobby when I become redundant (which is just around the corner).
I will never get my money back - that is not the purpose of them to me. This is also the main difference between me and my father, but I do dream of having more than 2 classics. Really thought about a XJ6 the other day, but I procrastinated and it was sold before I got there
I certainly agree that buying an XJS that needs refurbishing, and paying someone else to do the work is a real money pit. The value of a good car is low enough that your repair costs will quickly exceed the value of the car. I will disagree that it is abnormally expensive to refurbish the car yourself. The V12 really is not that complicated. Maybe it is easier to think of it as a twin 6. There is a lot of stuff, but not all that complicated. Parts are available used at reasonable cost. Yes, some stuff is expensive, like in any other car. The most difficult part is access to some components, which makes some jobs take a long time. Which takes us back to, you cannot afford to pay someone else to do it. They are a great opportunity for a skilled owner who enjoys doing their own work.
my first car was a fiat spider. my father did buy it for me.
Did I mention. It came on a flat bed along with 1/2 dozen boxes of components that were taken off the car... I always regretted losing that one.
The XJS is heavy! With a couple of passengers and a full tank of fuel it’s easy to be over 5000 pounds. From 1978 to end of production weight is listed as 4656#s 1975-1977 weight was 4056 pounds.
It’s possible to strip 1656 pounds from the car but any semblance to the quiet luxury car is gone. Windows are gone including all mechanisms, the rear window is replaced with plexiglas pop riveted in dame with side windows. They may be set up to slide into place for the trip to and from the race track if you should decide to drive rather than trailer. On shorter race tracks you’ll want to remove them for racing but high speed tracks you’ll leave them in to reduce drag.
Undercoating, sound deadening, seam sealer, are heated with a torch and scrapped out. Then the last remnants are removed using acetone wire brush and steel wool.
With further work I’ve seen them down around 2700 pounds with a full roll cage but that requires light weight body panels. ( fiberglass or carbon fiber). Don’t let that scare you, both can be done in your garage with minimal equipment. How messy it is depends on how organized you are. Yet I always wear clothes I’m prepared to throw away or one of those Tyvex suits.
Unlike the myth carbon fiber isn’t gold. While it’s slightly more expensive it’s probably cheaper than buying the same pieces new. * I’ll go further into detail later.
One decision is wiring. That wiring loom may be more than 45 years old and nothing brings the fun to a complete halt than an electrical failure. Tracing the short is frustrating and time consuming. If rodents have been at things you won’t have a choice. On the other hand if you have a running, driving, car you may be able to simply remove unneeded wiring like A/C power seats windows etc. you’ll still save some serious weight and maybe have acceptable reliability.
When I remove the loom I take the easy way and just chop it out tossing it in the trash as I go. Then I completely rewire everything using new, higher quality wiring, connections, and anchors. If this is your first complete rewireing job you might want to pattern your replacement after the original at first before you chop it up and throw it away. Even a race car can be slightly complex.
Depending on if I want a street legal car or a full out race car for daylight use only I can still save 100 pounds or maybe even more. I can’t tell you how much wiring will cost. I’m still using military surplus stuff from decades ago. But better plan on a few hundred dollars and about a week. It goes a little faster since I’ve done it often enough.
Weight reduction continues after you have the bare shell. If you put it together now the suspension will sit silly high. Removing 2000 pounds or so will do that. Plus you’ll want it lower, a low center of gravity helps cornering.
set the springs on a level surface. If the front pair are the same height you can reuse them. If one is lower it’s time for new springs. Do the same for the rear springs. I’m cheap and not a perfectionist. Last time I did this I pulled springs from several cars and used the two tallest. Start by cutting two coils off. A remarkable thing happens. Not only does the car get lower the springs get stiffer. Stiff is good. How stiff really depends on the track you go to and your driving style.
In general it’s easiest to drive a stiffer car than a softer car but a softer car can be faster particularly if the track is rough. Whatever, gthere is a few pounds in the coils you cut off and every pound gives you slightly faster acceleration and better braking.
All of that is only labor. Not money. I’ll admit I cheat, I have a rotisserie I mount my cars on. At my age I’m done with crawling on my back and having hot undercoating burning me as it falls off. My Rotisserie I welded up one morning with scrap steel tubing. The bare chassis weighs under 1,000 pounds so it doesn’t have to be that elaborate.
While it’s on the rotisserie, decide what you intend to do with paint. If the paint is semi decent just a good buffing and maybe a clear coat will be all you want. Or maybe it’s time to do a wrap. A heat gun and patience can yield decent results. It’s a race car not a work of art. Make the bodywork smooth and clean and start stretch the wrap. There are plenty of U tube to show you how. Don’t buy the high dollar wraps. Accidents happen. Usually in the garage or pits. Sometimes loading on the trailer,
l brought a 1982 XJS in 2019 that had not been on the road since 2012 had not run in ''several'' years. lt was stored outside in temps that annually fluctuate between +35c and -35c (and some) and for the last few without cover. lt did not run, but was in the grand scheme of things straight and rust free.
l have spent $2071.42 CDN on it, the cost of the car is immaterial as it is area dependent. This is some of the work that has been performed and whats left, however all the parts have been paid for.
........................................what i have is a car that come spring i would drive anywhere (wait and see what i have planned think N E S W ) that is probably worth a little more than what i have into it, but definitely no less......and definalty rising.
ls this my first mechanical purchase, no , not by a long shot. ls it my first ''build'', no, again not by a long shot, but only my second car in decades (70s superbikes mainly). The moral of this story is theres a lot of BS surrounding old cars, perpetuated mostly i suspect by habitual poor decision makers, if you research, buy right and budget properly there is no reason why you should end up in a world of hurt
....................................on the other hand if you buy on a whim and walk into a resto shop waving a open cheque book you will get what you deserve.
Brought
Now
Last edited by anyoldiron; 03-07-2020 at 10:11 AM.
I certainly agree that buying an XJS that needs refurbishing, and paying someone else to do the work is a real money pit. The value of a good car is low enough that your repair costs will quickly exceed the value of the car. I will disagree that it is abnormally expensive to refurbish the car yourself. The V12 really is not that complicated. Maybe it is easier to think of it as a twin 6. There is a lot of stuff, but not all that complicated. Parts are available used at reasonable cost. Yes, some stuff is expensive, like in any other car. The most difficult part is access to some components, which makes some jobs take a long time. Which takes us back to, you cannot afford to pay someone else to do it. They are a great opportunity for a skilled owner who enjoys doing their own work.
Well done.
I agree that they don’t need to be money pits even for street use. They require knowledge and the ability to understand things mechanical.
Let me highly recommend you download Kirby Palms “book” on the Internet. Even I refer to it occasionally, and I’m a racer.
The XJS is heavy! With a couple of passengers and a full tank of fuel it’s easy to be over 5000 pounds. From 1978 to end of production weight is listed as 4656#s 1975-1977 weight was 4056 pounds.
Heavy, yes, but let's not get too carried away with the numbers
I weighed my '88 XJS V12 coupe, USA spec. It was 4015 pounds 'curb weight' (full fluids, no passengers) and had a GVWR of 4760 pounds as per the door sticker
Add about 165 pounds per passenger (more if American!)
Add about 200 for a convertible or cabriolet
Deduct about 100 for non-USA spec
Deduct about 200 for a 6 cylinder
Well done.
I agree that they don’t need to be money pits even for street use. They require knowledge and the ability to understand things mechanical.
Exactly.
These cars are a little weird. A halfway decent DIYer who is willing to learn can do wonders with them. If you don't enjoy new challenges then an old V12 Jag probably isn't the right car.
Let me highly recommend you download Kirby Palms “book” on the Internet. Even I refer to it occasionally, and I’m a racer.
Palm's book is a magnificent resource.
And it shouldn't be viewed as unusual that someone heavily involved in racing could find it helpful.
I've known plenty of racing-focused people who couldn't begin to fix, let's say, an inoperative climate control. And the vast majority of car hobbyists (Jaguar or otherwise) would have no idea how to set up a car for actual competition use.
Cheers
DD
Last edited by Doug; 03-07-2020 at 12:24 PM.
Reason: sp
Heavy, yes, but let's not get too carried away with the numbers
I weighed my '88 XJS V12 coupe, USA spec. It was 4015 pounds 'curb weight' (full fluids, no passengers) and had a GVWR of 4760 pounds as per the door sticker
Add about 165 pounds per passenger (more if American!)
Add about 200 for a convertible or cabriolet
Deduct about 100 for non-USA spec
Deduct about 200 for a 6 cylinder
Cheers
DD
I quoted the weight in the Haynes manual. The 1975-1978 was 600 pounds lighter and 200 pounds lighter for non US spec. I’ll check the page number whenI return home. Edit, Haynes publishing group 1980 edition ISBBN 0 85696 478 6
page 7 middle of the page ( even lists deduct 106 pounds for manual transmission )
These cars a a little weird. A halfway decent DIYer who is willing to learn can do wonders with them. If you don't enjoy new challengers then an old V12 Jag probably isn't the right car.
Palm's book is a magnificent resource.
And it shouldn't be viewed as unusual that someone heavily involved in racing could find it helpful.
I've known plenty of racing-focused people who couldn't begin to fix, let's say, an inoperative climate control. And the vast majority of car hobbyists (Jaguar or otherwise) would have no idea how to set up a car for actual competition use.
Cheers
DD
That’s what I’m trying to demystify. They make wonderful race cars because the quality of components is great. Where most cars need special racing stuff most of Jaguar’s stuff works great for racing.
Next we need to decide what we want to modify. IMHO the first and most important change is the whole rear end. Use the outboard brakes from the later cars. Racing can generate enough heat to cook the seals and overheat the lubricant on the ones with in-board rotors. Plus working on the brakes, which is a every event sort of task, becomes massively easier. Finally the differential on the early inboard brakes is almost always a 2.88-1 when the 3.54 ratio found in nearly all the outboard brake versions is better for racing. Some tracks would be even better with a 4.11 but I don’t know any cars delivered with that ratio.
The XJS will almost always have a limited slip differential. And some sedans might. The way to tell is jack up the whole back of the car and rotate one wheel. If the opposite tire rotates the same direction it’s a limited slip.
The tracks I race at are very hard on brakes. (Most tracks aren’t too bad). So I completely remove the parking brake assembly. But that’s your choice. It’s easier on the bench, it’s also easier to clean it, paint it, grease the u-joints , grease the hubs. and replace any leaking seals etc.
I’m cheap, I find it is often cheaper to buy a wrecked car with a good rear end than to buy one from a parts breaker ( junk yard here in the states) $600 is my absolute maximum and at that price I like to see newish good quality shocks and good brake pads.
Next most important is a manual transmission. I used to find rusty series 3. XKE’s with manual transmissions. I’d buy and it sell off parts until I was left with the gearbox clutch and flywheel. You don’t need a 5 speed on the race track 5th gear is normally an overdrive and it’s just not needed.
On this site there is someone who explains the costs and How to adapt an American T 5 gearbox.
My approach is different and cheaper still. I’ll use an American transmission and a Chevrolet bell housing. The locating dowels in the later (1978- on) V12 blocks will align a Chevy bellhousing or scatter shield and all you need is a transfer punch to mark the adapter plate.
I have a band saw but you can use a saber saw. Just cool the blade with a little ATF Automatic Transmission Fluid to keep the teeth from clogging.
OK the big question. Carbs or Fuel injection. Old Geezers like me will sacrifice the slight power and better fuel mileage with Fuel injection because we know how to make carbs work.* more later.
Fuel injection on Jaguars is a problem. Unlike most modern FI most Jaguar systems aren’t digital. nor do they have a PROM chip.
They are simple enough to get running but to make extra horsepower your choices are AJ6 engineering or Mega Squirt. AJ 6 engineering does a good job and most will feel some added power. But they have very little flexibility. Alternate fuels, very evolved engines. Turbocharging, etc.they aren't set up for at all.
While you can program a Megasquirt with a lap top most of the analog sensors used on Jaguars really don’t work well with Mega Squirt’s digital system. With enough work it can be done but there is an easier way.
That goes back to just before Ford bought Jaguar.
The original plan was for GM to buy Jaguar. Doing their due diligence GM quickly realized Jaguar was hopelessly obsolete. They were still building cars using some machinery from WW2 days. The only thing Jaguar had that GM felt was any real value was their name and the new Six cylinder engine.
GM used it as the basis for their Atlas engine used in their SUV’s but ditched the Lucas stuff in favor of Delco and brought it from 4.0 liters to 4.2. Eventually getting horsepower up to 290.
Ford got rid of the distributor and replaced it with a crank trigger.
All that means is the parts are there to use digital sensors so you can quickly adapt a mega Squirt. Hook up the new sensors, crank it over and the self learning function will get things close. Now you have a lap top adjustable system.
Big bore? Stroke? Wild cam? Alternate fuels?
have fun!!!!
Carbs, the early cars 1971-74 came with Stromberg carbs. They have 1& 3/4 throttle bores which should flow up to 1200 CFM for all 4 of them.
Group 44 made 450 horsepower with the V12 and beat all the Corvettes, While Huffaker claimed more power and even group 44 conceded they did. Funny thing is Group 44 used 4 SU carbs, 2 inch SU’s while Huffaker used Strombergs.
The big attraction is the relative ease carbs can be altered. For example. E85. Ream the jet out so it flows 60% more and you can run E85.
that’s at least a 10% increase in power ( even more the higher the compression) plus cooler running. And it’s cheaper. My local station sells 91 octane premium for $3.29/9 a gallon The same pump will dispense $1.99/9 E85.a savings of $1.30 a gallon. When is the last time you got more power for less money? E85 has approximately 100 octane . ( ethanol has 114 octane blended with15% 87 octane gasoline.)
Now stock the cabs were 20 horsepower down from fuel injection but even though there were many changes to the fuel injection there was no additional horsepower claimed. Yes there were different versions, pre and post HE, the first system using Bosch components later Lucas systems., various injectors, US specs, Generally the power remained pretty consistent right up to the. 6.0 ( a few minor exceptions like the R series aside)
I digress
Group 44 later raced the IMSA race car with Weber’s and started at 500 horsepower. While Rob Beere said he was making over 700 using Weber side draft carbs
Forget Weber’s. Too expensive to tune. On my V12 E type roadster I had over $1800 ( back in the 90’s ) worth of air correction meters, jets etc and needed more.
The additional jets etc. would change horsepower a bit.
Vintage racing got to that level but since has eased. Dramatically enough so that level of competitiveness isn’t required. In fact the slight power advantage of a well tuned set of Weber’s do over a good set of SU’s
I still like Carbs setting up fuel injection on something that never had it, can be a daunting task. And the cost isn't within my budget. I guess maybe I'm just hard headed, but I can still make a carb sit up, and talk, as they used to say. LOL!
Jack you can’t get me to convince you of something we happen to agree on. Yet there are those who eagerly seek to solve the issues at question.
The big advantage of fuel injection I see is the additional power that V12 will make for such a modest outlay.
Back in the 90’s I built a 1975 XJS into within a smudge of 500 horsepower using nothing more than 2 turbo’s out of junk Saab’s. ($35 each) A used $85 FMU I paid $40 for. And some exhaust tubing.
The pre 1980’s have the great heads and only 7.8-1 compression ratio. If you keep the boost down under 6psi you don’t need intercoolers and those little T 2’s will fit under the front fenders and out of the engine compartment.
the T2’s are really too small. designed for up to 2 liters for the street I seldom saw much over 5psi of boos. The T3’s are supposed to handle 3 liters and generate up to 10 psi. If you’re using E85 the alcohol will cool it just fine. If you want you can trigger the windshield washer fluid at 8 psi and really generate serious boost without risk of damage.
The only thing Jaguar had that GM felt was any real value was their name and the new Six cylinder engine.
GM used it as the basis for their Atlas engine used in their SUV’s but ditched the Lucas stuff in favor of Delco and brought it from 4.0 liters to 4.2.
I've heard this a couple times before over the years.
When you say ".....used it as a basis..." do you mean GM looked at it, liked what they saw, and essentially copied the basic design? Or did they actually take the Jaguar engine and re-purpose it?
There's an undeniable family resemblance but I've never been able to verify that the Jaguar engine was the actual parent of the Vortec 4200
I read about it in a trade publication at the time. Then had conversation with a person who claimed to have been involved in the Due diligence assessment.
Reading based on the book written about the subject By the CEO Jaguar was in deep trouble. Sir Lyons had gone in deeply in debt to buy the machinery to make the V12 even though they repurposed some from the original engine, That’s what caused them to become part of BLMH in the first place. But to Keep Jaguar alive and independent more debt had been assumed.
Quietly they tried to sell themselves to GM
Apparently Jaguar had a debt from the transmissions They bought from GM.
After GM decided to pass they took the plans and some of the machinery, patterns and molds. In lieu of payment.
Kind of a reverse of when Buick sold their Aluminum V8 to Rover.
Finding exact details of that transaction has proven impossible, I bought the book and while it confirmed some details I suspect a non disclosure agreement was in place.
In retrospect I haven’t found any exact details of Any power train transaction. While I wish I’d kept the original trade paper discussing the deal, it was an after the fact piece done Post Ford’s purchase of Jaguar. The tone in it was an attempt to justify the massive price Ford paid for a business that GM had passed on.
I quoted the weight in the Haynes manual. The 1975-1978 was 600 pounds lighter and 200 pounds lighter for non US spec. I’ll check the page number whenI return home. Edit, Haynes publishing group 1980 edition ISBBN 0 85696 478 6
page 7 middle of the page ( even lists deduct 106 pounds for manual transmission )
When Group 44 raced their XJS they had trouble getting the car down to minimum class weight. They couldn’t. Starting with the 600 pound lighter version ( 1975-1977 ) they were still hundreds of pounds over weight. Their second attempt the factory acid dipped all the body panels except frame rails. All they removed was 140 pounds.
Only when they went to the tube frame car with nearly all Fiberglas panels ( roof remained steel) were they finally able to achieve minimum weight. They were also able to move the engine back 8&1/2 inches removing more than 300 pounds from the front end and achieving much better balance as a result.
I certainly agree that buying an XJS that needs refurbishing, and paying someone else to do the work is a real money pit. The value of a good car is low enough that your repair costs will quickly exceed the value of the car. I will disagree that it is abnormally expensive to refurbish the car yourself. The V12 really is not that complicated. Maybe it is easier to think of it as a twin 6. There is a lot of stuff, but not all that complicated. Parts are available used at reasonable cost. Yes, some stuff is expensive, like in any other car. The most difficult part is access to some components, which makes some jobs take a long time. Which takes us back to, you cannot afford to pay someone else to do it. They are a great opportunity for a skilled owner who enjoys doing their own work.
I can agree that a DIY driver quality car can be affordable if you start out with a semi decent car in the first place.
The magic is many of these cars were bought new as retirement or near retirement cars. They often have low miles and the engines really don’t need rebuilding.
I’ve pulled many an engine apart and mechanically they need nothing. I acquired over 50 engines and Engines/transmissions, while I sold or traded for a fair number. 15 years later I still had over 30 left and they had to go. I spent a month of my spare time separating the aluminum from the iron and steel. And scrapped all but 3. They are just too uncommon to have much of a market.
The original owner’s used them for special occasions and treated them to dealership maintenance. Too often they were inherited with the next generation just wanting to cash them out.
In any case depreciation, and that scary fuel injection turned trivial little problems into expensive work exceeding the market value of the car.
Now there are UTube video’s that de-mystify the fuel injection. If you really want to understand the early system have someone with early VW Rabbit experience explain it to you. Jaguar just bought 3 Bosch systems ( 3x4= 12 ) then Lucas put that together in one system. Everything is Analog until very late in the 21 years of production. When Ford finally brought them into the digital age.
even the very newest system is at least 6 generations old.
03-06-2020, 09:12 PM
So you bought a XJS cheap. Now what?
