Tire Advice required please! XJS V12
#41
04-20-2014, 01:34 PM
Veteran Member
Honestly, I always replace tires in sets of 4. Yes, it may cost me more. But if I rotate them regularly, the most I'm losing out in is maybe a few extra months on 2 of my tires. Is it really worth the risk, and trying to wade through differing opinions, "facts", etc? To me, with a safety item such as tires, it isn't. Just my 
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orangeblossom (04-20-2014)
#42
04-20-2014, 02:04 PM
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That's not quite how I interpret it, although maybe I've missed something in my nonchalant perusing.
I don't think the industry is saying that new tires in front are dangerous.
I think what they're saying is:
1) Loss of traction is dangerous
2) Loss is traction is the rear (oversteer) is particularly dangerous as fewer drivers can regain control in that situation
3) Less chance of oversteer increases the margin of safety
4) New tires in the rear lessens the chance of oversteer
That's fine and well but frankly I think there's a lot more to it than that ....and the recommendation of 'new tires to the rear' is the best generic, suitable-for-the-average-consumer answer that the industry could agreed upon as they obviously realize it's impossible to address the huge array of variables.
Cheers
DD
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orangeblossom (04-20-2014)
#43
04-20-2014, 04:58 PM
I freshened up a V-12 once for a customer. Tune, fuel injectors cleaned, new fluids, wash and wax. He had just bought the car used and wanted it as close to new as possible. He bought his own tires, decent Pirellis. Upon leaving shop he was thankful for a nice running clean car. It returned on tow with all four corners beat to extinction. He was driving in the rain and got excited about running a Mustang that he forgot that the S can spin tires at a moments notice when the accelerator is punched and he spun on a Boulevard with plenty of trees and almost hit them all. So, not the rear tires actually hydro-plane a lot of the spin is from the V-12 power not being used properly.
#44
04-20-2014, 05:07 PM
I have a bit of an issue with the well thought out and apparently logically justified new tires on the front tendency. For those in the UK, the AA state new on the rear. Michelin state new on the rear. In the US, Tire Rack, Discount Tires the tiresafetygroup.com all state new on the rear. I could find nothing to the contrary.
At the risk of being somewhat controversial, the only place that advocates new on the front are posts in this forum. In defense of those with this view I'd be willing to bet that people in other car forums also harbor these opinions. Should it not be regarded as somewhat disturbing that all businesses that make their living from making or fitting tires advocate new on rear? I'd like to see some "official" support to the contrary rather than just "it stands to reason".
Finally, the only reason I am flogging this to death is that the industry consensus is that new on front is downright dangerous and I'm worried someone may get injured or worse. This does not seem to be a matter of opinion anymore, and it reminds me of the argument based on "I don't wear a seatbelt because I knew a guy who only survived a crash because he wasn't wearing one."
At the risk of being somewhat controversial, the only place that advocates new on the front are posts in this forum. In defense of those with this view I'd be willing to bet that people in other car forums also harbor these opinions. Should it not be regarded as somewhat disturbing that all businesses that make their living from making or fitting tires advocate new on rear? I'd like to see some "official" support to the contrary rather than just "it stands to reason".
Finally, the only reason I am flogging this to death is that the industry consensus is that new on front is downright dangerous and I'm worried someone may get injured or worse. This does not seem to be a matter of opinion anymore, and it reminds me of the argument based on "I don't wear a seatbelt because I knew a guy who only survived a crash because he wasn't wearing one."
In which case I would rather go the way I feel I should, in which case I can only blame myself.
#45
04-20-2014, 05:10 PM
Honestly, I always replace tires in sets of 4. Yes, it may cost me more. But if I rotate them regularly, the most I'm losing out in is maybe a few extra months on 2 of my tires. Is it really worth the risk, and trying to wade through differing opinions, "facts", etc? To me, with a safety item such as tires, it isn't. Just my
#46
04-20-2014, 05:15 PM
That's not quite how I interpret it, although maybe I've missed something in my nonchalant perusing.
I don't think the industry is saying that new tires in front are dangerous.
I think what they're saying is:
1) Loss of traction is dangerous
2) Loss is traction is the rear (oversteer) is particularly dangerous as fewer drivers can regain control in that situation
3) Less chance of oversteer increases the margin of safety
4) New tires in the rear lessens the chance of oversteer
That's fine and well but frankly I think there's a lot more to it than that ....and the recommendation of 'new tires to the rear' is the best generic, suitable-for-the-average-consumer answer that the industry could agreed upon as they obviously realize it's impossible to address the huge array of variables.
Cheers
DD
I don't think the industry is saying that new tires in front are dangerous.
I think what they're saying is:
1) Loss of traction is dangerous
2) Loss is traction is the rear (oversteer) is particularly dangerous as fewer drivers can regain control in that situation
3) Less chance of oversteer increases the margin of safety
4) New tires in the rear lessens the chance of oversteer
That's fine and well but frankly I think there's a lot more to it than that ....and the recommendation of 'new tires to the rear' is the best generic, suitable-for-the-average-consumer answer that the industry could agreed upon as they obviously realize it's impossible to address the huge array of variables.
Cheers
DD
#47
04-20-2014, 10:12 PM
Hi Orange Blossom,
I read the opinions on the place of the better tires, and of course i have my own opinion on that.
Not to confuse you more, but I want to share my thoughts on this matter.
If safety is your concern stop worrying about where to put the tires think about what tires to put on your car. For the Goodyear Eagle is discontinued for a while, so the spares you have and the new ones still available are already aged tires. And aged tires (even unused) have their drawbacks like it can be dried out (visible and or invisible) or the bonding might be compromised due to heat, moist (fungi) and Ultra Violet radiation.
- as a tire dries out is becomes a kind of brittle and porous, a porous one will leave you with a flat tire, inconvenient but not a big deal while when brittle there is a risk of blowing (you don't want that at 100 MpH not even at 60)
- You might face a tread separation due to a compromised bonding. If you're lucky you'll see rubber flying around. Off course nobody can guarantee you that that tire won't blow, not at 100 MpH not even 60 or less)
Why will aging affect a never used tires integrity?
As the tire ages it will dry out and become more or less porous and brittle, often you see cracks sometimes you don't until using it. In this case you will start to see the cracks in a couple of miles to a few hundred miles.
UV radiation affects the intermolecular bonding of the rubber compounds and makes it less strong (dry, brittle, cracks story)
A tire is made of several layers of different rubber compounds, and other materials like steel and nylon. Due to aging the bonding between these layers can be compromised and the layers separated. (intermolecular bonding due to heat, UV radiation and fungi and the bonding between layers due to temperature differences, humidity (crimp and expansion)
A tire which ages while in use is more predictable than a tire that ages on the shelf or in the trunk as never or seldom used spare. Why? Deterioration doesn't come suddenly you will see the signs of aging coming slowly and not unexpected. You can see your tires turn grey or start seeing some cracks and of course wear.
But a "new" 0 miles tire with 8mm tread might surprise you.
Now where to put those "new" tires? I can imagine that some would put them at the front as a blowing front tire is better controllable than a rear.
But better
let it go and get 4 new tires. I know those 15 inchers are hard to find, and very expensive. But a human life is invaluable.
An alternative is maybe to size up to a 16" wheel tire combo. If you want to stay with lattice wheels they were available in 16" on later models.
16 inch is not a big visual impact, most ppl won't even notice that, and as bonus you'll get improved handling esp. cornering.
I'm not a professional so use your own common sense, My intention is to give you a mindset.
I read the opinions on the place of the better tires, and of course i have my own opinion on that.
Not to confuse you more, but I want to share my thoughts on this matter.
If safety is your concern stop worrying about where to put the tires think about what tires to put on your car. For the Goodyear Eagle is discontinued for a while, so the spares you have and the new ones still available are already aged tires. And aged tires (even unused) have their drawbacks like it can be dried out (visible and or invisible) or the bonding might be compromised due to heat, moist (fungi) and Ultra Violet radiation.
- as a tire dries out is becomes a kind of brittle and porous, a porous one will leave you with a flat tire, inconvenient but not a big deal while when brittle there is a risk of blowing (you don't want that at 100 MpH not even at 60)
- You might face a tread separation due to a compromised bonding. If you're lucky you'll see rubber flying around. Off course nobody can guarantee you that that tire won't blow, not at 100 MpH not even 60 or less)
Why will aging affect a never used tires integrity?
As the tire ages it will dry out and become more or less porous and brittle, often you see cracks sometimes you don't until using it. In this case you will start to see the cracks in a couple of miles to a few hundred miles.
UV radiation affects the intermolecular bonding of the rubber compounds and makes it less strong (dry, brittle, cracks story)
A tire is made of several layers of different rubber compounds, and other materials like steel and nylon. Due to aging the bonding between these layers can be compromised and the layers separated. (intermolecular bonding due to heat, UV radiation and fungi and the bonding between layers due to temperature differences, humidity (crimp and expansion)
A tire which ages while in use is more predictable than a tire that ages on the shelf or in the trunk as never or seldom used spare. Why? Deterioration doesn't come suddenly you will see the signs of aging coming slowly and not unexpected. You can see your tires turn grey or start seeing some cracks and of course wear.
But a "new" 0 miles tire with 8mm tread might surprise you.
Now where to put those "new" tires? I can imagine that some would put them at the front as a blowing front tire is better controllable than a rear.
But better
let it go and get 4 new tires. I know those 15 inchers are hard to find, and very expensive. But a human life is invaluable.
An alternative is maybe to size up to a 16" wheel tire combo. If you want to stay with lattice wheels they were available in 16" on later models.
16 inch is not a big visual impact, most ppl won't even notice that, and as bonus you'll get improved handling esp. cornering.
I'm not a professional so use your own common sense, My intention is to give you a mindset.
The following users liked this post:
orangeblossom (04-21-2014)
#48
04-21-2014, 05:30 PM
Hi Orange Blossom,
I read the opinions on the place of the better tires, and of course i have my own opinion on that.
Not to confuse you more, but I want to share my thoughts on this matter.
If safety is your concern stop worrying about where to put the tires think about what tires to put on your car. For the Goodyear Eagle is discontinued for a while, so the spares you have and the new ones still available are already aged tires. And aged tires (even unused) have their drawbacks like it can be dried out (visible and or invisible) or the bonding might be compromised due to heat, moist (fungi) and Ultra Violet radiation.
- as a tire dries out is becomes a kind of brittle and porous, a porous one will leave you with a flat tire, inconvenient but not a big deal while when brittle there is a risk of blowing (you don't want that at 100 MpH not even at 60)
- You might face a tread separation due to a compromised bonding. If you're lucky you'll see rubber flying around. Off course nobody can guarantee you that that tire won't blow, not at 100 MpH not even 60 or less)
Why will aging affect a never used tires integrity?
As the tire ages it will dry out and become more or less porous and brittle, often you see cracks sometimes you don't until using it. In this case you will start to see the cracks in a couple of miles to a few hundred miles.
UV radiation affects the intermolecular bonding of the rubber compounds and makes it less strong (dry, brittle, cracks story)
A tire is made of several layers of different rubber compounds, and other materials like steel and nylon. Due to aging the bonding between these layers can be compromised and the layers separated. (intermolecular bonding due to heat, UV radiation and fungi and the bonding between layers due to temperature differences, humidity (crimp and expansion)
A tire which ages while in use is more predictable than a tire that ages on the shelf or in the trunk as never or seldom used spare. Why? Deterioration doesn't come suddenly you will see the signs of aging coming slowly and not unexpected. You can see your tires turn grey or start seeing some cracks and of course wear.
But a "new" 0 miles tire with 8mm tread might surprise you.
Now where to put those "new" tires? I can imagine that some would put them at the front as a blowing front tire is better controllable than a rear.
But better
let it go and get 4 new tires. I know those 15 inchers are hard to find, and very expensive. But a human life is invaluable.
An alternative is maybe to size up to a 16" wheel tire combo. If you want to stay with lattice wheels they were available in 16" on later models.
16 inch is not a big visual impact, most ppl won't even notice that, and as bonus you'll get improved handling esp. cornering.
I'm not a professional so use your own common sense, My intention is to give you a mindset.
I read the opinions on the place of the better tires, and of course i have my own opinion on that.
Not to confuse you more, but I want to share my thoughts on this matter.
If safety is your concern stop worrying about where to put the tires think about what tires to put on your car. For the Goodyear Eagle is discontinued for a while, so the spares you have and the new ones still available are already aged tires. And aged tires (even unused) have their drawbacks like it can be dried out (visible and or invisible) or the bonding might be compromised due to heat, moist (fungi) and Ultra Violet radiation.
- as a tire dries out is becomes a kind of brittle and porous, a porous one will leave you with a flat tire, inconvenient but not a big deal while when brittle there is a risk of blowing (you don't want that at 100 MpH not even at 60)
- You might face a tread separation due to a compromised bonding. If you're lucky you'll see rubber flying around. Off course nobody can guarantee you that that tire won't blow, not at 100 MpH not even 60 or less)
Why will aging affect a never used tires integrity?
As the tire ages it will dry out and become more or less porous and brittle, often you see cracks sometimes you don't until using it. In this case you will start to see the cracks in a couple of miles to a few hundred miles.
UV radiation affects the intermolecular bonding of the rubber compounds and makes it less strong (dry, brittle, cracks story)
A tire is made of several layers of different rubber compounds, and other materials like steel and nylon. Due to aging the bonding between these layers can be compromised and the layers separated. (intermolecular bonding due to heat, UV radiation and fungi and the bonding between layers due to temperature differences, humidity (crimp and expansion)
A tire which ages while in use is more predictable than a tire that ages on the shelf or in the trunk as never or seldom used spare. Why? Deterioration doesn't come suddenly you will see the signs of aging coming slowly and not unexpected. You can see your tires turn grey or start seeing some cracks and of course wear.
But a "new" 0 miles tire with 8mm tread might surprise you.
Now where to put those "new" tires? I can imagine that some would put them at the front as a blowing front tire is better controllable than a rear.
But better
let it go and get 4 new tires. I know those 15 inchers are hard to find, and very expensive. But a human life is invaluable.
An alternative is maybe to size up to a 16" wheel tire combo. If you want to stay with lattice wheels they were available in 16" on later models.
16 inch is not a big visual impact, most ppl won't even notice that, and as bonus you'll get improved handling esp. cornering.
I'm not a professional so use your own common sense, My intention is to give you a mindset.
If I Change to 16 inchers, I would have thought it would make the handling worse.
As for Starters this would increase the center of gravity.
Not to mention Insurance Companies would look upon this as being a major modification!
Which in itself could invalidate my Insurance, as I have been doing some research on this and if you have a look yourself, the list of what they term as modifications is so long they could turn it into a book.
They would also give me, a false reading on my 'Speedo' and from an esthetical point of view they are not for me, although I know you are only trying to help.
Which I would add is not lost on me, So Thank You for that.
Whether or not I can bring myself to Throw this new Tyre away, is another matter altogether, so I may well keep it to use it as a Spare in case of a Puncture.
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