Two Fuel Pumps in Two Years?
#21
Hi Someday
The Engine in 'Lady Mary' sounded exactly the same as the Engine in 'Cherry Blossom' when the Crank Sensor got hit with the broken Alternator Belt (That sort of lost compression sound)
Not saying it is that but I wouldn't rule it out, as a possible cause of 'iffy' Starting
Also I'd change the Filter to see if that makes any difference, as it might be holding the Flow of Petrol back
The Engine in 'Lady Mary' sounded exactly the same as the Engine in 'Cherry Blossom' when the Crank Sensor got hit with the broken Alternator Belt (That sort of lost compression sound)
Not saying it is that but I wouldn't rule it out, as a possible cause of 'iffy' Starting
Also I'd change the Filter to see if that makes any difference, as it might be holding the Flow of Petrol back
#22
Yes, reading up on them, some of the first hits were about detecting fake Walbro pumps, so presumably they're desirable enough for there to be fakes going around.
Add methanol to tank? Hmm. I wonder if the fuel here has it anyway. Or perhaps those fuel cleaner/injector cleaner things do. I shall investigate.
Add methanol to tank? Hmm. I wonder if the fuel here has it anyway. Or perhaps those fuel cleaner/injector cleaner things do. I shall investigate.
if you try to order it directly from Walbro website they do give this as a warning
#23
The Engine in 'Lady Mary' sounded exactly the same as the Engine in 'Cherry Blossom' when the Crank Sensor got hit with the broken Alternator Belt (That sort of lost compression sound)
Not saying it is that but I wouldn't rule it out, as a possible cause of 'iffy' Starting
Also I'd change the Filter to see if that makes any difference, as it might be holding the Flow of Petrol back
Not saying it is that but I wouldn't rule it out, as a possible cause of 'iffy' Starting
Also I'd change the Filter to see if that makes any difference, as it might be holding the Flow of Petrol back
But thanks for the tips, as usual.
#24
Spikepaga - that spelling error on the site you show doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. Apparently they're "an independent seller of Walbro fuel pumps and accessories." However, the pumps with the "exteremly" high counterfeit rate appear to be the high-flow performance pumps, which I do not need.
Also, that site shows me what appears to be the external fuel pump as fitting a 1992 XJS. That is wrong.
Also, that site shows me what appears to be the external fuel pump as fitting a 1992 XJS. That is wrong.
#25
SDSD
I would get your mechanic to check connections WHILE he is messing with that tank access lid.
This is the Parts book drawing for your car.
#9 plugs into the lid, on the outside, and the other end plugs into the car loom.
That pigtail on #2, is the connection on the underside of that lid, and that is where the Sedans had major pump issues, as in bad connections.
Not saying your pump is bad, but with tank out, only a few seconds to ensure the integrity of those connectors, top and bottom.
I would get your mechanic to check connections WHILE he is messing with that tank access lid.
This is the Parts book drawing for your car.
#9 plugs into the lid, on the outside, and the other end plugs into the car loom.
That pigtail on #2, is the connection on the underside of that lid, and that is where the Sedans had major pump issues, as in bad connections.
Not saying your pump is bad, but with tank out, only a few seconds to ensure the integrity of those connectors, top and bottom.
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Some Day, Some Day (06-30-2019)
#26
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#27
Just an update, or a "situation solved" post, really.
A couple of days ago, she was all fixed. They replaced the fuel pump, the fuel filter, and the fuel relay just to be on the safe side. She fires up pretty-well instantly now. Yay!
There is one odd thing, though. The fuel hose bringing fuel to the engine was also replaced, and the garage said that there was a rubber grommet thing inside the attachment where it goes onto the rail, and even though they tightened it, it still needs a slight tighten regularly. They said that after a couple of days it was pretty solid, but after two days of using the car, it's needed a slight turn, just 10-20 degrees, each morning. This isn't normal, surely? Understandably, the idea of it not sealing well and leaking fuel onto my engine is not an idea I am happy about....
This is the hose in question:
A couple of days ago, she was all fixed. They replaced the fuel pump, the fuel filter, and the fuel relay just to be on the safe side. She fires up pretty-well instantly now. Yay!
There is one odd thing, though. The fuel hose bringing fuel to the engine was also replaced, and the garage said that there was a rubber grommet thing inside the attachment where it goes onto the rail, and even though they tightened it, it still needs a slight tighten regularly. They said that after a couple of days it was pretty solid, but after two days of using the car, it's needed a slight turn, just 10-20 degrees, each morning. This isn't normal, surely? Understandably, the idea of it not sealing well and leaking fuel onto my engine is not an idea I am happy about....
This is the hose in question:
#28
It is where the hose assembly attaches to the fuel rail, or where the rubber hose is attached to the steel part of the hose assembly that is rotating? Usually where the hose attaches to the rail is a steel against steel taper that should sung up and be leak free.
There are fittings where there is an O ring, such as into the fuel filter, but there is a stop where it can't be overtightened and crush the O ring. I don't see any washers or O rings called out in that joint in the parts book, but there is in the fuel filter and tank connections. Something isn't right.
Take a look at this hose kit and click for the detailed image, the usual connection is the one in the bottom left corner, it has a mating taper on the fuel rail https://www.motorcarsltd.com/eac9986.kit.html I realize this is the prior hoses to what you have, but the taper style connection is a standard Bosch type connection, my X300 saloons use the same thing ( as well as Mercedes)
There are fittings where there is an O ring, such as into the fuel filter, but there is a stop where it can't be overtightened and crush the O ring. I don't see any washers or O rings called out in that joint in the parts book, but there is in the fuel filter and tank connections. Something isn't right.
Take a look at this hose kit and click for the detailed image, the usual connection is the one in the bottom left corner, it has a mating taper on the fuel rail https://www.motorcarsltd.com/eac9986.kit.html I realize this is the prior hoses to what you have, but the taper style connection is a standard Bosch type connection, my X300 saloons use the same thing ( as well as Mercedes)
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Some Day, Some Day (07-20-2019)
#29
#30
#31
The nut should not be flush. The joint is one of 3 types. The tapered I noted in the link above, on the left is a brake line type flare, and on the right an O ring. The O ring is grey, so a bit hard to see.
I've not seen the flare type on the Jaguar, but it's common on other cars for fuel lines. The way the nut sits I suspect it's either flare or O ring. Does it leak if it isn't tightened up?
The flare is a metal to metal seal, so the nut will come to a definite stop when it's tightened and you'll know it. The O ring will compress to a certain extent, but again there is a stop to prevent over compressing the O ring. It's obvious when doing up the joint when it's tight enough. Worst case, I wonder if it's cross threaded??
I've not seen the flare type on the Jaguar, but it's common on other cars for fuel lines. The way the nut sits I suspect it's either flare or O ring. Does it leak if it isn't tightened up?
The flare is a metal to metal seal, so the nut will come to a definite stop when it's tightened and you'll know it. The O ring will compress to a certain extent, but again there is a stop to prevent over compressing the O ring. It's obvious when doing up the joint when it's tight enough. Worst case, I wonder if it's cross threaded??
Last edited by Jagboi64; 07-20-2019 at 11:28 PM.
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Some Day, Some Day (07-20-2019)
#32
Thanks for that. Going from the end, I don't think it's cross-threaded, as the nut does move smoothly when I give it that little turn. There's no unusual resistance from there. It feels rather like I'm compressing it against a rubber O-ring indeed. It feels tight each time I finish tightening it--and I'm careful not to put too much torque onto it, and use a spanner on the fuel rail side connector as well.
I don't know if it leaks if not tightened, as I'm checking it regularly.
Checked with an older photo of my engine, and even before the new hose, the connectors weren't flush. For all I know, the original could be moved around/tightened.
I don't know if it leaks if not tightened, as I'm checking it regularly.
Checked with an older photo of my engine, and even before the new hose, the connectors weren't flush. For all I know, the original could be moved around/tightened.
#33
Hi Someday
Unless your Facelift V12 Car is different?
The Pipe that you have Circled in your Photo, is Not the Fuel Supply Hose but the Return Hose, as the Fuel Supply Hose is on the other side of the Car (The Drivers Side on a RHD Car) at least it is on my Pre-Facelift V12
Unless your Facelift V12 Car is different?
The Pipe that you have Circled in your Photo, is Not the Fuel Supply Hose but the Return Hose, as the Fuel Supply Hose is on the other side of the Car (The Drivers Side on a RHD Car) at least it is on my Pre-Facelift V12
Last edited by orangeblossom; 07-21-2019 at 03:51 AM.
#34
Thanks for that. Going from the end, I don't think it's cross-threaded, as the nut does move smoothly when I give it that little turn. There's no unusual resistance from there. It feels rather like I'm compressing it against a rubber O-ring indeed. It feels tight each time I finish tightening it--and I'm careful not to put too much torque onto it, and use a spanner on the fuel rail side connector as well.
I don't know if it leaks if not tightened, as I'm checking it regularly.
Checked with an older photo of my engine, and even before the new hose, the connectors weren't flush. For all I know, the original could be moved around/tightened.
I don't know if it leaks if not tightened, as I'm checking it regularly.
Checked with an older photo of my engine, and even before the new hose, the connectors weren't flush. For all I know, the original could be moved around/tightened.
This parts drawing clearly shows 2 (TWO) o.rinsg per pipe/hose assembly AT the rail. They will require NO tightening as you drive IF they are installed PROPERLY, One seal fitting TO rail, 2nd seal, fitting TO pipe end.
They are the same design as A/C fitings, and we dont mess with them as we drive, well down here we dont.
#9 and #13 are the seals in discussion here.
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Some Day, Some Day (07-21-2019)
#35
Oh-ho. So instead of putting both seals on the hose end and ramming it onto the fuel rail, put one on each end and then tighten? I shall definitely check with the garage to see what they did. If they didn't do it right, I shall get them to correct their error.
Very useful tip, thanks Grant.
Wonder why it makes such a difference? The one that should be on the rail not getting pushed in far enough or something?
OB: You're technically right in that the return fuel rail does come off the starboard fuel rail, but then it swoops under the a/c compressor and you can see it very clearly in that photo of the older setup. It's the grey-green metal pipe to the left of the fuel feed.
Very useful tip, thanks Grant.
Wonder why it makes such a difference? The one that should be on the rail not getting pushed in far enough or something?
OB: You're technically right in that the return fuel rail does come off the starboard fuel rail, but then it swoops under the a/c compressor and you can see it very clearly in that photo of the older setup. It's the grey-green metal pipe to the left of the fuel feed.
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Grant Francis (07-21-2019)
#36
Oh-ho. So instead of putting both seals on the hose end and ramming it onto the fuel rail, put one on each end and then tighten? I shall definitely check with the garage to see what they did. If they didn't do it right, I shall get them to correct their error.
Very useful tip, thanks Grant.
Wonder why it makes such a difference? The one that should be on the rail not getting pushed in far enough or something?
OB: You're technically right in that the return fuel rail does come off the starboard fuel rail, but then it swoops under the a/c compressor and you can see it very clearly in that photo of the older setup. It's the grey-green metal pipe to the left of the fuel feed.
Very useful tip, thanks Grant.
Wonder why it makes such a difference? The one that should be on the rail not getting pushed in far enough or something?
OB: You're technically right in that the return fuel rail does come off the starboard fuel rail, but then it swoops under the a/c compressor and you can see it very clearly in that photo of the older setup. It's the grey-green metal pipe to the left of the fuel feed.
My point is, try to stay in charge and control of what is happening, these cars require lots of owner involvement in that way, and even if someone else is doing the work, you have to become mechanically inclined, unless you have a Jaguar specialist ($$$$$$$) you are taking the car to, who knows all the quirks and eccentricities. A well meaning mechanic can create more problems replacing things he does not know how to replace properly. I would suggest next time he consults with you before changing anything, you do your own research on parts and procedures and then make the decision yourself.
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#37
Well, I basically trust professional mechanics more than I trust myself. I could learn the technical issues to be aware of, but actually doing it would probably take way longer, and I just don't have the time. And they seldom do it wrong, and their prices seem reasonable. While not Jaguar specialists, they are high-end European specialists at least.
However, I do try to gather as much knowledge of the quirks and eccentricities as I can, using these forums and other resources to try and get an idea of what is involved, writing it up and translating it into Japanese, and discussing things with the head mechanic. I just didn't expect a simple ("simple") fuel hose to be weird.
However, I do try to gather as much knowledge of the quirks and eccentricities as I can, using these forums and other resources to try and get an idea of what is involved, writing it up and translating it into Japanese, and discussing things with the head mechanic. I just didn't expect a simple ("simple") fuel hose to be weird.
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#38
If yours is one of the few or only old English car at that shop, I feel for them, Lol. The Germans usually make more rational decisions. They still over-engineer, but it seems with them it “makes sense” . Jaguar, specially old Jaguar, does not follow that approach.
”Simple things made weird” should be a bumper sticker we all place in our XJS cars.
”Simple things made weird” should be a bumper sticker we all place in our XJS cars.
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orangeblossom (07-21-2019)
#39
#40
Here's an interesting issue. I called the garage, and they said that they didn't find any O-rings on the old hose attachment either, only the same green rubber ring about 1 cm deep that came with the new pipe. Could this be a facelift change? I wouldn't think so, as Jaguar Classic Parts has the O-rings right up to the final six-litre. But why would the original hose also not have had any? Perhaps I should get some to be on the safe side....