i'm betting those are the California made,Grp44 heads, quick mention about them when interviewd in 2012 at his Sebring FL. ranch!

Tullius said they received a few sets, but never finished them, because Jaguar stopped the funding, and turned funding to TWR England,imagine that!!LOL.

they were at the Tullius shop in Winchester VA. close to were you are located when auctions were where taking place!

 

electric Mustang, check out this one, built,about 1 mile from me, very quick drag car, certified 0-60 1.94 seconds time slips, average over 3 runs 2 sec flat.
check him out ,google electric Mustang, his drag race with a Tesla S.

ZOMBIE 222 , 174 mph in 1 mile.

 

It may have been a collision of fate on two fronts. Lanky had told me that they were outlawed due to noise. He said 20 sets were made. Jaguar stopped funding the Group 44 race team somewhere in the same time frame. Lanky told me that he remembered 3 sets not being "built out" as he called it. If 20 pair were made, where are the others?

 

Ahh, now I see how they were scanned, my concerns about coolant passages is unfounded. I had thought they would be 3D laser surface scanned.
The beauty of having them now as a 3D file is that it is very simple to scale them up 1-3% when printing moulds for casting.
And please get a quote from someone who can do this, as mould making the old fashioned was is VERY expensive compared to being able to modify a 3D pattern and printing it out. You have made the effort and committed the money to get a 3D scan, why go backwards and have that reinterpreted into a hand made wood pattern? The data is already there to have it 3D moulded. It can also be 3D carved on a CNC machine if it is converted appropriately, again, a huge time saver.
What is common when making moulds off old parts is to simply dip the part in a clay slurry a few times to build the dimensions up, but that obviously doesn't work on internal parts, only on external surfaces.

 

 

 

Great progress! CT scanning makes a lot of sense. I'd love to see the DICOM stack (image file stack) one day! If I might ask, how much was the CT scan portion? I think it might be interesting to have the same done to some standard 5.3 or 6.0L heads here in the states for comparison / CFD flow modeling. One could even do some 3D prints in plastic of a single cylinder w/mods for cheap flow bench testing.

Spare Group 44 Cylinders & Silver plated Nitrogen Filled Sealing Rings (Shot taken at Lanky's House/Garage).

 

What do you want to know about these heads? I run them on my Group 44 cars.
Be careful, I was told there was 1 new set about (years ago) that had been machined incorrectly on some of the holes. Also they do not appear to have the head water passages tapped for the flow restrictors, If good the heads should have letters and numbers stamped on the exhaust face at the front. should also have a bit of milling at the rear of both heads and a threaded hole on the A bank by the chain guide. Valves will be either 1.9" inlet or 1.8" inlet dependant upon the engine they are intended for. The original tooling / core boxes still existed last time I was at 44 in Winchester.
If you look here at some pics I have uploaded you will see what I have been doing and the 2 versions of heads being made, 1 a TWR pattern and the other nearer to standard looking but incorporating the best of Group 44 design. These can take a 2" inlet. xjr5006's Albums - JaguarForums
Also there are pics of a Group 44 head I sectioned here https://www.facebook.com/groups/1432458440324391/ just click on the pictures and scroll down.
Of those who would like to go down the Group 44 route I have I think all the 44 sliders , maybe 6 - 10 sets, throttle body sets as per the XJR5 and the weber inlets in different ID's from 48IDA down to 40. You will quickly gather form the pics I can do everything else too from big cam carriers to original Group 44 mag sumps , or new TWR if you prefer.
Please email me.
As for the banning because of the noise? Maybe Group 44 had noise problems at Daytona in 88 which might explain why TWR ended up with silencers.

 

I had bought these with the intention of installing them on a street driven 71 E Type. As I stated, Lanky told me that the biggest problem I would face would be muffeling the sound they made. He could get pretty colorful in his descriptions of the politics of racing.
I never saw letters or numbers on the exhaust face, but they did have ink stamps on one end. I also had the large cam followers, which I sold along with the heads.

 

Wow. I have been following your twr page. Love it. The head appears to be fully machined and ready for valves and guides. From the pics comparing it to a standard flat head it all appears symmetrical. All water outlets in head are there but i dont see any stamping. But there are printed numbers as supercharged tr6 pointed out. I will be flow testing these in the new year and have to collect some parts for inlet and cams and cam carriers. Do you have valves also? Please feel free to email me daddy cool 454 at hot mail dot kom a price on everything you think i might need. The cam followers aee H U G E just like the ports. As mentioned earlier i will be getting a crank from farndon early next year and probably some pistons rods and liners too, hope our dollar gets stronger...

 

Not sure if it was 20 pairs or 20 castings made of the CA heads, 3 were lost due to core shift, (Tullius was too tight to get every casting checked )
This has just got to be the pair of heads that was knocking about 10 - 12 years ago with a new set of big buckets. They had a problem, cant remember exactly but it was that something had been opened out or drilled incorrectly which would be difficult to rectify. So do check very carefully.
Now the maths, given there was a ready market for these heads ie Group 44 themselves, and that a number of heads simply sat on the shelf for upto 30 years, the market might well be very small. Very small indeed.
More maths, the heads will require porting, even good full size cast ports will need finishing and if you cast the full size ports ie 7L full race, the market is reduced as they will be too large to be usable by smaller engines (6L ) or road going engines.
If you cast the ports smaller to allow this choice of porting size (as I have done on my TWR heads) the porting costs rise hugely and could double the casting cost; thats just for the porting .
Machining will add about 1.5 - 2K to the cost
Seats may be only 30-50 each but there are 24 so another 1K ish
Custom waterway bungs need manufacturing and fitting and valve guides need buying and fitting.
If you really are going all the way then the option of beryllium seats should be chosen allowing for the use of titanium valves. Good luck trying to get these and then trying to get a machine shop to fit and machine them.
Springs will be custom as will the titanium top retainers. Now as you are getting real serious you will need experts setting up of valve spring height and pressure with the fitting of shims below the lower spring retainers. Most people dont even know about this.
Valves, stainless at a minimum maybe with sodium filled exhaust, Better still custom titanium ( add a few more K on now)
Custom top hat shims will the be norm for adjustment.
Bucket size will be custom and dependent upon the springs and cams used. A custom big cam carrier will need sourcing and machining to match the buckets.
Custom timing chain chaps.
Custom cam covers to match the cam carriers.
Studs ARP, are you still counting the bucks or have you already lost interest?
To justify all the above you need a full bottom end will steel caps and custom crank, rods and pistons, custom inlets , sliders or inlet manifolds with throttle bodies then custom injection (dont you dare think webers)
Fully modified oiling system with likely dry sump and external oil pump as the standard item wont do the job.
So now with the rev range upped and the cammy engine unable to pull below 3.5K the water pump will cavitate and will need modding. Hope you havent fitted those heads as they do need the flow restrictors fitted. (the what???)
Oh and the liners, custom of course with coopers rings on top, How much!!!
Hope you didn't buy or import the nice stainless tubular exhaust, you didn't did you? Check out the shape and size of the exhaust ports, yep another custom jobby here, and did you try and save a few bucks by fitting std exhaust studs? silly boy out they come then and get custom ones made and fitted.
Nobody told you about the opening of the valley return oil way, or the closing of the 'v' oil drains, best strip that block down again.
Now the Cossy DFV is 60K + UK with parts available and people who know how.
your V12 has half the number of parts again without parts availability, a sobering thought isn't it, and where are the people who know how?
It is a very very different story to rebuild an engine like this to building one from scratch.
And so it continues..... Good Luck Chaps.
The maths for getting tooling produced..... 35K ish ? thats Sterling BTW
Soooooo.............. to cover costs, sell 10 sets ! add 3.5K to each unit cost so we are at or well over 5K per unit blank castings, Minimum 30% margin = 6.5K+. The only question left is if this figure is per head or per pair of heads!!!!

 

Xjr5006 the information you present is wonderful and you obviously know the engine. Awesome to find someone who knows. I find your attitude in educating me to be a little condescending which i dont think is necessary. I have asked you to email me a price for the inlets group a if they are suitable and camshaft, cam carriers and covers if necessary. Please reply. I saw from your pictures that you have embarked upon something similar and are far more knowledgeable than me in this venture. I decided to replicate these because i believed them to be the last pair. If you have heads for sale then you might save me a lot of money as i need 2 pairs. One for my lister replica and another for my boat. I know of a head reconditioner who can make titanium valves in melbourne i will ask regarding the seats.
Again you are correct regarding my knowledge of valvespring pressures and shims. I am committed to a serious 7.3l bottom end with big crank liners pistons and rods, some steel caps from your twr facebook page where i have been ogling much of the yumminess there. I dont know yet about the v oil drains as ive never embarked upon a project like this before. Without saying so arp studs will be required. Custom manifolds inlet and exhaust unless the group a ones are suitable, personally i was thinking something like the broadspeed intakes with quad throttle bodies. All depends on what works. I would like longer runners to try and induce some lower rpm torque with the cubic capacity taking up some of the airflow requirements to make it work better. Then again there is always the option of supercharging. I would love to have more helpful advise along the way. With regards to the head problems you suspect, i will thoroughly check them out. Theres another pair at mike roddy in melbourne and i will be seeing him in the new year to compare and get advice. Presently i am a v12 jaguar knowledge sponge and will happily accept all good advice graciously.

 

I'm certainly very confused here. I have no understanding at all of the world of Jaguar race engines. I am a enthusiast at most.
I know that a full out race engine requires everything mentioned. What confuses me most is the fact that Lanky Foushee was the first guy I called when these heads came available, and told him of my intention. I had a very nice 71 E type that was built as a coupe, but converted to a convertible by the original owner sometime in the mid 80s when the market spiked on V12 convertibles, and watched a convertible bring 125,000 dollars at Red Oak dealers auction in Atlanta Ga. I'm guessing parts for a full metal conversion were still available.
I say all of this to put into context that by the late 90s, my E type was a ******* child. Only the enthusiat like me would have it. It was shunned by Jaguar purists. I consulted Lanky on setting up the front end to handle like the 6 cylinder cars.I spent more money on that car than I like to admit. SS headers, aluminum flywheel, 5 speed conversion, aluminum coil over shocks etc. If it didn't have market value, the fun factor would be priceless.
Lanky told me that these heads would bolt right up on a 5.3 liter, although I intended to find a 6 liter, and use the Weber EFI set up for the "cool" factor of a E type that I truly did drive like I stole it. Lanky told me that the stock cam follower blocks could be used, however they would have to be replaced, maybe bored for the large followers should I decide to go with a cam in the .600 lift range.
I'm hoping these heads somehow make it to those of us that long for performance in our "toys".
Btw, a nasty divorce, and the 07 economy all but broke this ole boy, but I'm back up, hoping for better days.

 

Its a shame to lose a toy sometimes. That etype sounds like it was awesome however another door usually opens. I knew when i bought these off you that it would be an expensive exercise, but a noble one. I have loved v12 jaguars ever since seeing the broadspeed(racer not avengers) in a book and fell in love with xjc at the local jaguar mechanic. Anyhoo the ball is rolling. If xjr5006 has heads available then problem is solved. If not then next year will be a busy year. I will post some more slices in days to come.

 

i doubt there are many guys on this site can afford these kind of toys.

but a lot of interesting parts and mods for some!

hey , daddycool, does the 454 refer to the famous Chevy BB 454??

 

Hi Ron, yes it does. Put a 454 big block into a series 3 some years back and it was a beast. When idling in my driveway my neighbours china cabinet used to shake... I had to warm the car up on the street from then on... Lol.
Had a great conversation with xjr5006 this morning and am looking forward to some more info re inlets, cams etc. man certainly has some knowledge and nice toys too...

 

DAMMIT MAN!!!
I had a major hard-on for these heads when I emailed with superchargedtr6 earlier this year about them.
Your math has absolutely killed the mood. Not even an I.V. full of liquid Viagra could revive it.

 

Had a chat about the heads this evening albeit on a bad phone line, so some pics here to try and positively pin down what they are. I have no doubt they are from Group 44 simply because of the provenance. Looking again at the pics and the ruler it looks to me (could be wrong) that the inlet is 42mm and the inlet valve size is 1.8" Now this could explain the metal being removed bit. The 42mm is the largest size for Gp 44 heads and should go with 1.9" inlets valves. The 1.8" is what I have on my 6L XJR5 engine but the portsare smaller than 42mm (should have measured them last night as the inlets are off atm. think they are 38mm but might be 40mm ) Sooo ...... we have heads that might be just right for an OTT road car , the slightly smaller valves would be better for torque and drivability, Not convinced these are CA (Californian) heads though. So a few pics of some CA heads to show the identification points



7L CA heads from engine 018 (the last of the 18 engines built by Group 44 ) Note the valve size and closeness of inlet to exhaust seats, also clearly shown are the flow restrictors.



Rear of the heads Right is std casting (that can be, and was , produced with a thicker deck) Left are my new TWR castings and center is a Group 44 race heads with machining clearly visible for hooking up the heads to the rear suspension Also note the water take off / air bleeder at the rear inside fitted to stop cracking from entrapped air/steam.



Front of the A head showing the access hole for manual tensioner adjustment (yep thats different too but I make them)



Above this is the stamped in Group 44 head number, CA = Californian clearly stamped on all 7 of my heads.



CA head with Group 44 slider lower manifold attached. They are normally Mag not ally.

Now if you wanted a really rare and different project........

 

A question for XJR5006: Are your castings primary from old tooling? Or have you priced out custom printed sand cast (ExOne.com)? What percentage of the cost of remade rare metal parts has been in the machining vs creation? 60/30? 80/20?

XJR5006 is right in questioning the market for a top-dollar reliable 850HP pure Jag V12 race engine recreation. Few have that kind of money. Then again, few spend the cash to put everything the need together overnight either. Beryllium and regularly refreshed/changed titanium valves have been the way to go on a no holds barred competition engines, but beryllium dust is deadly, and few machine shops will touch it. Maybe the market is at 550 HP where some Inksy XM ground cams, copper-nickle (Moldstar 90) alloy seats and stainless will do. (New non-beryllium seat materials that work with titanium are becoming available that work as well or better than beryllium: Qualcast nickel-silicone-chrome-copper alloy / Winsert's Velociter alloy...etc)

Then again, I wonder for how many years these parts were just sat on (along with closely held racing secrets). I wish my camera hadn't ran out of battery while I was there, but Lanky had one *special* research casting still sitting on a shelf with tiny runners meant to be hogged out for flow benching.

You might want to try test fitting the heads to an available V12 block using standard cam carriers etc to check where the holes line up. It won't check everything, but it'll give you a basic confirmation of a proportion of the drilling. There's a little info on Jag-Lovers about restricting the front water outlets so that flow is equalized to the rear of the head. Rob Beer has a higher flow V12 oil pump if dry-sumping isn't in the cards. You may also find this interesting if you're planning on using available Jag tappets rather than whatever Lanky used: Jaguar Tappets

Paul Kobres
85' XJS V12
96' VDP X300

 

Good good on the money post.
Most of my tooling is new, Having had to pay the bill for some tooling I thought I was in the wrong job, these guys really know how to charge even though the advent of scanning and CAD in whatever form should make the job quicker and easier.
I really like the idea of scanning a part enlarging it by the metal shrink rate and sending the file straight to a cutter to make tooling, but doesn't seem to work that way in practice, I know they can print ally heads now straight from file but the cost is huge, but will come down no doubt over time.
Getting the right foundry is also difficult, big ones aren't interested in small problematic jobs and with the small ones things like quality and porosity can creep in.
Machining is a killer, and another area I wish I was into as in could do it in house. Yes this exceeds the casting cost by some but the percentage is very different from one item to another + if its CNC you need to pay for the creation of the files. (and it doesn't seem to bring production costs down from what I can see, just makes for better repeatable and more accurate machining) about 80/20 on the heads without porting which can easily double the cost again.
Yes totally agree the market is more likely the 550 mark both from practicality and cost.
Fitting of these heads to the block is std as are the bolt pattern of the cam carriers.
The problem is the the cam carriers, these big valves really need bigger springs which in turn requires bigger buckets whcih require bigger carriers as the meat is simply not there in the std casting. Hence the bigger cam carriers, they cam in 2 forms. The Group 44 and TWR Group A /eqarly Group C are the same , the later XJR8-12 TWR are even larger. I think its reasonable to say that TWRs Group A project and Group 44 would not have used the big cam carriers unless it was necessary; the engine were about the 500-600 mark which is what we are talking sensibly about.
Yes a regrinding from .375 to .4 or .415 works although at .415 new cams were made to avoid problems of adjustment shim size and buckets raising too far up the bores. .45 is Group 44 6L endurance engine spec and we are getting serious here. At .54 we are talking 7L full race and the .6 is simply brutal on the valve train.
SO I would say yes you should go for the larger cam carriers for anything above fast road, tappet buckets matching the springs but likely to be an OD of 1.6" any larger is really pushing the limits of the Group A / Gp 44 carriers. the late TWR can handle larger but have the additional benefit of allowing larger lobes without the problem of machining away 1/2 the gasket area for the cam cover by the cam lobes.
These heads need larger cam carriers the only question is whether you go for a totally Group 44 package (carriers not available) or go for the TWR carriers which are available now. Personally I would think it very sad and a waste to fit heads like this with standard bolt ons. Better to pass them on to someone who would utilize what they are and modify some standard heads.
Rob Beer's high flow pump is a bargain when you consider a new pump from Jaguar is about £600 and if you havent got a late engine its another £75 for the matching drive that fits on the crank.