who has made 400hp Jag V12
#62
04-12-2023, 02:40 PM
Senior Member
Well said Wolf. My Daily driver is either my 1953 MGTD or my 1972 Jaguar XJ12 ( yes I know the factory didn’t make an V12 until 73 but that doesn’t mean I can’t).
However my Wife wants one •••• yes, Happy wife, happy life)
The nice thing is the few times mechanics touch my neighbors Tesla’s they come to their home. Most “service work” is done on line while it’s being charged.
While I have a few Jaguars my real love is Vintage sports car racing. ( Jaguars). I’m building a Group 44 tribute XJS V12 now and next will be a series 1 XKE with the rare V12 option ;-)
However my Wife wants one •••• yes, Happy wife, happy life)
The nice thing is the few times mechanics touch my neighbors Tesla’s they come to their home. Most “service work” is done on line while it’s being charged.
While I have a few Jaguars my real love is Vintage sports car racing. ( Jaguars). I’m building a Group 44 tribute XJS V12 now and next will be a series 1 XKE with the rare V12 option ;-)
I still have one, actually two as I just bought another shell to build. My youngest has 406K on it but nothing is really stock anymore. I still love driving the things.
Think I'm going to a gasser on the next one, I don't drive enough to
need the diesel MPG anymore and it's gone up in price so much anyway.
When I moved to Oklahoma into a ready-made family a few years ago I bought a 2004 Lincoln Town Car which was as new and "modern" as I was willing to go, it's been bar none the most
reliable, consistent, durable and just plain everything is designed/engineered and just works right car I've ever had. And it's boring as all get out, but I can't bring myself to get rid of it.
That car is masterful on the interstate at 80mph, less so in town.
My Wife actually prefers older cars as well(luckily), she has a 1995 LeBaron convertible I found with 60K on it at the time and it's a horrible car in every way and is on it's 2nd transmission at under 80K, but she loves the thing.
She has a fairly short commute to work so the miles don't add up too much. It really is an appallingly bad car to drive. Everything about it.
#63
10-25-2023, 08:38 AM
If it works for a given person, it works. Lot of people couldn't stand driving an XJS either, but we can. Situation, preference and perspective.
I've worked from home for years and I drive about 90 miles every weekend round trip so technically most any of them would be sufficient.
But I can't think of any reason to bother as long as fuel is under eight or ten bucks a gallon and available.
Comparing electric stuff and gas stuff power is about like comparing an XJS v12 to a modern car, fairly apples and oranges.
I'm a "built not bought" kinda guy so none of that off the showroom floor stuff is of much interest really. If it's not 20 years old with
a quarter million miles under its belt it's like a young woman to me, pretty and of some utility to be sure, but ultimately not very interesting.
I've worked from home for years and I drive about 90 miles every weekend round trip so technically most any of them would be sufficient.
But I can't think of any reason to bother as long as fuel is under eight or ten bucks a gallon and available.
Comparing electric stuff and gas stuff power is about like comparing an XJS v12 to a modern car, fairly apples and oranges.
I'm a "built not bought" kinda guy so none of that off the showroom floor stuff is of much interest really. If it's not 20 years old with
a quarter million miles under its belt it's like a young woman to me, pretty and of some utility to be sure, but ultimately not very interesting.
I too am a built not bought kinda guy. Except for daily transportation. I’ve bought 23 new cars/ trucks over my lifetime. to put the high daily miles on. Sometimes 85,000 miles a year.
To use my MGTD or Jaguars like that I’d spend my nights and weekends working on them.
Now I work on them when I feel like it. And enjoy them when I feel like.
I’m buying a new Tesla because it promises low operating costs based on my neighbors experience.
The model 2 will start at $25,000 and with discounts from the federal Government and my state it will only cost $15,000 for a brand new car that I never have to waste time at a gas station again.
#64
10-25-2023, 05:31 PM
#65
10-26-2023, 12:57 PM
Moving the factory to Germany would help. Then Jaguars would be German.
Around here the default setting for buying a higher end car is BMW, Merc, Audi and Porsche pretty much in that order.
All German of course which is the attraction, lots of kudos attached. Very few buyers are really car minded or get oil on their hands but they have money and they buy German because if it is German then it is sehr gut. The actual level of German content may be questionable but the brand name says it all.
Jaguar ? See very few recent ones. JRL has a hard time digging itself out of a rut. The Land/Range Rover part does reasonably well but the Jaguar part seems a spent force which is a pity.
Around here the default setting for buying a higher end car is BMW, Merc, Audi and Porsche pretty much in that order.
All German of course which is the attraction, lots of kudos attached. Very few buyers are really car minded or get oil on their hands but they have money and they buy German because if it is German then it is sehr gut. The actual level of German content may be questionable but the brand name says it all.
Jaguar ? See very few recent ones. JRL has a hard time digging itself out of a rut. The Land/Range Rover part does reasonably well but the Jaguar part seems a spent force which is a pity.
If Jaguar was in Germany now it wouldn’t exist. Once Russia shut off the natural gas pipeline German manufacturing has been in serious trouble. You need a lot of Natural Gas to do the sort of manufacturing Germany is known for.
#66
10-26-2023, 01:12 PM
Little to no HP but plenty torque to be a good time. The HE was a big step in the right direction and commendable, for the day,
that they got it to work with so much compression.
That's another revalant-ish point, hp is functionally irrelevant, especially to Americans (whether we know it or not).
It's torque, preferably starting down low, that most everyone wanted for ages (and no small number now).
Which is sort of the opposite direction of going with a many cylinder'd, high revving engine.
It was a European mindset, and I've enjoyed/tolerated no few of them over the years that did just that.
There in the 80's BMW figured out that while the M20 was a lovely motor, it was an annoyance to drive in a lot of cases
since nothing interesting happened till 3500rpm or so and the rather large buying audience of yuppies wanted to just stick
their loafers in it at will and accelerate, which only happens when you have gobs of torque at any given time/rpm available.
And it was all but hopeless at stoplight drag races, which is something
else near and dear to the American buying public's heart. At least back then.
They developed a low revving E(efficiency) "torque" motor that at once got really great MPG and felt like it was a liter larger than the venerable
M20 in normal use. As long as you didn't really expect it to rev out and make power.
We are mighty short on autobahns, or good roads at all, over here despite the land area unless you're lucky, so high revving stuff has always
been a hard sell to the numbers of people you'd need to sell cars to over here to turn a profit.
I still see what are now retro-reviews where young car people call the xjs slow, or are at least surprised it's as anti-climactic with a v12.
They usually comment on the sound and feel, the jet-engine-ness, which is certainly a thing, and that it gets out of it's way ok, but there's nothing there to wow them.
Torque would. But that's not really it's game. So 40 years later it still feels underpowered, weight isn't helping, still, and the brave, proud and
few are still looking for ways to make it faster, and there just aren't any that are economically in keeping with what the cars are worth.
These cars, as beautiful and elegant and mechanically fascinating and unique as they are, especially with the low production, should be
worth a TON of money. But they aren't(at least in the USA), and I think the learning curve, repair grief and lack of payoff for the effort keeps them cheap by
and large. I think they are wonderful or I wouldn't own one, but I can see why most people don't, even car enthusiasts.
Automotive folks are a fickle lot.
But to your point past my ramble: exactly.
It was plenty favorable in the late 70's and into the 80's.
But it did not exist in a vacuum despite how it seems to have been treated,
everyone else in the world was moving right along.
By 84, to borrow your example, the Corvette was doing the same performance
with 60 less hp, because of lightness and an engineering budget. And that wonky
crossram injected 84 350 felt strong doing things we usually do with cars, because of torque.
Few years later the LT1 came along, and everyone in Europe and Asia
figured out 4 cams on a v8 is a good recipe for grown-ups, or two on a six with a turbo for the kids.
And that's perfectly okay. I'm not privy to any of the internal goings on and business goals and such of the time, I've no doubt they
could well have tacked another 50hp onto the thing every other year if they'd wanted, technology was progressing pretty hard back then.
I really don't know why it didn't sell any better or wasn't any more well received when it was young, despite thinking it should have had more
power. But it did not.
that they got it to work with so much compression.
That's another revalant-ish point, hp is functionally irrelevant, especially to Americans (whether we know it or not).
It's torque, preferably starting down low, that most everyone wanted for ages (and no small number now).
Which is sort of the opposite direction of going with a many cylinder'd, high revving engine.
It was a European mindset, and I've enjoyed/tolerated no few of them over the years that did just that.
There in the 80's BMW figured out that while the M20 was a lovely motor, it was an annoyance to drive in a lot of cases
since nothing interesting happened till 3500rpm or so and the rather large buying audience of yuppies wanted to just stick
their loafers in it at will and accelerate, which only happens when you have gobs of torque at any given time/rpm available.
And it was all but hopeless at stoplight drag races, which is something
else near and dear to the American buying public's heart. At least back then.
They developed a low revving E(efficiency) "torque" motor that at once got really great MPG and felt like it was a liter larger than the venerable
M20 in normal use. As long as you didn't really expect it to rev out and make power.
We are mighty short on autobahns, or good roads at all, over here despite the land area unless you're lucky, so high revving stuff has always
been a hard sell to the numbers of people you'd need to sell cars to over here to turn a profit.
I still see what are now retro-reviews where young car people call the xjs slow, or are at least surprised it's as anti-climactic with a v12.
They usually comment on the sound and feel, the jet-engine-ness, which is certainly a thing, and that it gets out of it's way ok, but there's nothing there to wow them.
Torque would. But that's not really it's game. So 40 years later it still feels underpowered, weight isn't helping, still, and the brave, proud and
few are still looking for ways to make it faster, and there just aren't any that are economically in keeping with what the cars are worth.
These cars, as beautiful and elegant and mechanically fascinating and unique as they are, especially with the low production, should be
worth a TON of money. But they aren't(at least in the USA), and I think the learning curve, repair grief and lack of payoff for the effort keeps them cheap by
and large. I think they are wonderful or I wouldn't own one, but I can see why most people don't, even car enthusiasts.
Automotive folks are a fickle lot.
But to your point past my ramble: exactly.
It was plenty favorable in the late 70's and into the 80's.
But it did not exist in a vacuum despite how it seems to have been treated,
everyone else in the world was moving right along.
By 84, to borrow your example, the Corvette was doing the same performance
with 60 less hp, because of lightness and an engineering budget. And that wonky
crossram injected 84 350 felt strong doing things we usually do with cars, because of torque.
Few years later the LT1 came along, and everyone in Europe and Asia
figured out 4 cams on a v8 is a good recipe for grown-ups, or two on a six with a turbo for the kids.
And that's perfectly okay. I'm not privy to any of the internal goings on and business goals and such of the time, I've no doubt they
could well have tacked another 50hp onto the thing every other year if they'd wanted, technology was progressing pretty hard back then.
I really don't know why it didn't sell any better or wasn't any more well received when it was young, despite thinking it should have had more
power. But it did not.
You make a good point regarding power. Except the feeling of sluggishness is only due to 2 things. A 2:88 rear end ratio designed to get acceptable fuel mileage out of a 12 cylinder engine. With such a short ( 2.75 ) stroke it’s just not going to give you the kick in the pants a little longer stroke would.
Second with weight well exceeding 4200 pounds
The Jaguar is too heavy to provide a sporty feel.
I have chopped every pound I can out of my XJS, replacing fenders with fiberglass. Doors with fiberglass, trunk and engine hood with fiberglass. If I’m lucky I’m down to 2700 ponds. Carbon Fiber ( not allowed ) would only save me about 50 pounds.
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#67
10-26-2023, 02:19 PM
Senior Member
2700 with a better gear (and preferably a manual) is probably a heck of a good time. Very cool stuff.
It's a lot better with the 4L60E and v8 torque on the street as a driver, though you can always feel the (lack of) diff gear and weight.
Still a good GT car though, at home at speed on the interstate. 75mph is 2100ish with the converter locked.
It'd still be better with a stick..
It's a lot better with the 4L60E and v8 torque on the street as a driver, though you can always feel the (lack of) diff gear and weight.
Still a good GT car though, at home at speed on the interstate. 75mph is 2100ish with the converter locked.
It'd still be better with a stick..
#68
10-26-2023, 06:48 PM
The rollcage should tell you it’s not a cruiser.
A V 8 is too expensive. And won’t make as much power as a V12 will.
No production V8 is built as well as that V12 is built. For serious racing with a V8 you need special everything. There isn’t a stock part used in any serious racing effort. Even he engine block is replaced when racing gets serious. Less well off amateurs will look for special high nickel - 4 bolt blocks. But stock crankshafts/ Rods/ Pistons camshafts heads manifold etc.
With Jaguars I’ve raced them with nearly stock components for decades. Won races where Chevy V8’s blew up like popcorn. Driven by Factory sponsored Grand Prix and Indy Car drivers who were previous serious multiple winners.
Look at the 1986 Bahama’s Vintage Grand Prix. There are others and newer but that’s the only Video that I know of.
I’ll be racing an almost stock ( cams and carbs) V12 up against guys with $20-30,000 in just their engines. I’ll be using an engine with 90,000+ miles on it out of a $500 car. ( the one in the pictures). If it ever fails I’ve got spares, nothing as expensive as the one I’ll be running.
That’s the beauty of Jaguar, gently used parts that are Designed to race for 24 hours at a time and win.
A V 8 is too expensive. And won’t make as much power as a V12 will.
No production V8 is built as well as that V12 is built. For serious racing with a V8 you need special everything. There isn’t a stock part used in any serious racing effort. Even he engine block is replaced when racing gets serious. Less well off amateurs will look for special high nickel - 4 bolt blocks. But stock crankshafts/ Rods/ Pistons camshafts heads manifold etc.
With Jaguars I’ve raced them with nearly stock components for decades. Won races where Chevy V8’s blew up like popcorn. Driven by Factory sponsored Grand Prix and Indy Car drivers who were previous serious multiple winners.
Look at the 1986 Bahama’s Vintage Grand Prix. There are others and newer but that’s the only Video that I know of.
I’ll be racing an almost stock ( cams and carbs) V12 up against guys with $20-30,000 in just their engines. I’ll be using an engine with 90,000+ miles on it out of a $500 car. ( the one in the pictures). If it ever fails I’ve got spares, nothing as expensive as the one I’ll be running.
That’s the beauty of Jaguar, gently used parts that are Designed to race for 24 hours at a time and win.
Last edited by Mguar; 10-27-2023 at 04:45 AM.
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#69
10-26-2023, 06:52 PM
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#71
10-26-2023, 07:44 PM
Senior Member
The rollcage should tell you it’s not a cruiser.
A V 8 is too expensive. And won’t make as much power as a V12 will.
No production V8 is built as well as that V12 is built. For serious racing with a V8 you need special everything. There isn’t a stock part used in any serious racing effort. Even he engine block is replaced when racing gets serious. Less well off amateurs will look for special high nickel - 4 bolt blocks. But stock crankshafts/ Rods/ Pistons camshafts heads manifold etc.
With Jaguars I’ve raced them with nearly stock components for decades. Won races where Chevy V8’s blew up like popcorn. Driven by Factory sponsored Grand Prix and Indy Car drivers who were previous serious multiple winners.
Look at the 1984 Bahama’s Vintage Grand Prix. There are others and newer but that’s the only Video that I know of.
I’ll be racing an almost stock ( cams and carbs) V12 up against guys with $20-30,000 in just their engines. I’ll be using an engine with 90,000+ miles on it out of a $500 car. ( the one in the pictures). If it ever fails I’ve got spares, nothing as expensive as the one I’ll be running.
That’s the beauty of Jaguar, gently used parts that are Designed to race for 24 hours at a time and win.
A V 8 is too expensive. And won’t make as much power as a V12 will.
No production V8 is built as well as that V12 is built. For serious racing with a V8 you need special everything. There isn’t a stock part used in any serious racing effort. Even he engine block is replaced when racing gets serious. Less well off amateurs will look for special high nickel - 4 bolt blocks. But stock crankshafts/ Rods/ Pistons camshafts heads manifold etc.
With Jaguars I’ve raced them with nearly stock components for decades. Won races where Chevy V8’s blew up like popcorn. Driven by Factory sponsored Grand Prix and Indy Car drivers who were previous serious multiple winners.
Look at the 1984 Bahama’s Vintage Grand Prix. There are others and newer but that’s the only Video that I know of.
I’ll be racing an almost stock ( cams and carbs) V12 up against guys with $20-30,000 in just their engines. I’ll be using an engine with 90,000+ miles on it out of a $500 car. ( the one in the pictures). If it ever fails I’ve got spares, nothing as expensive as the one I’ll be running.
That’s the beauty of Jaguar, gently used parts that are Designed to race for 24 hours at a time and win.
All that from a $500 car. It's a wonder folks aren't falling all over themselves to acquire them.
#72
10-26-2023, 08:17 PM
#74
10-27-2023, 04:37 AM
because most people are follow the leader type and can’t be bothered to think for themselves.
If the engine stops they bring it to a mechanic. Few mechanics actually understand engines. Instead they are parts replacers. “Oh, the OBD2 tells me to replace this sensor”. Battery not charging ? Get a new alternator. Etc.
The Jaguar V12 works just like a Chevy/Ford/ Honda. Intake compression power and exhaust. Spark and fuel. 4-6-8-12 all same same.
I thank God that Jaguar dealers charge so much for labor. It makes non running Jaguars almost free.
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#75
10-27-2023, 04:43 AM
But in automatics defense, even most race cars ( including Formula 1 ) are faster with automatics. If I were a drag racer I’d keep the Turbo 400
#76
10-27-2023, 04:51 AM
2700 with a better gear (and preferably a manual) is probably a heck of a good time. Very cool stuff.
It's a lot better with the 4L60E and v8 torque on the street as a driver, though you can always feel the (lack of) diff gear and weight.
Still a good GT car though, at home at speed on the interstate. 75mph is 2100ish with the converter locked.
It'd still be better with a stick..
It's a lot better with the 4L60E and v8 torque on the street as a driver, though you can always feel the (lack of) diff gear and weight.
Still a good GT car though, at home at speed on the interstate. 75mph is 2100ish with the converter locked.
It'd still be better with a stick..
#77
10-27-2023, 01:12 PM
Senior Member
The reason most were automatic To those who can afford a New Jaguar it’s not really a car, it’s a status symbol. The wealthy can’t be bothered to row gears ( especially in modern traffic ).
But in automatics defense, even most race cars ( including Formula 1 ) are faster with automatics. If I were a drag racer I’d keep the Turbo 400
But in automatics defense, even most race cars ( including Formula 1 ) are faster with automatics. If I were a drag racer I’d keep the Turbo 400
Seem to be a lot more sticks in Europe, they always seemed reluctant to send them over here, no doubt due to the cost and demographic
as you said. Much like we were almost always stuck with automatic climate control and sunroofs.
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#79
10-31-2023, 06:59 PM
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i spent the last hour and a half reading this site, it seems it went thru 3 generations of people!
some even passed dead!
as i see it, electric cars are making big advancments some of it AMAZING!
would i waste money and time on antiqated junk,NOPE , times are a changing and ,New magazine came out ELECTRIC conversions!
unless somebody DROPS the BIG BOMB??????
some even passed dead!
as i see it, electric cars are making big advancments some of it AMAZING!
would i waste money and time on antiqated junk,NOPE , times are a changing and ,New magazine came out ELECTRIC conversions!
unless somebody DROPS the BIG BOMB??????
Last edited by ronbros; 10-31-2023 at 07:03 PM.
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Mguar (11-01-2023)