getting some Dayton wire wheels for the xjs. I read an article by another wheel manufacturer suggesting it was a good idea to use tubes in the tires to help prevent rust occuring from condensation of the air in the tires. just wanting some input on whether this was a good idea or not, thanks

 

depends on what year Dayton wire wheels they are. New ones are absolutely tubeless. At some point a while back tubes were required.

 

brand new, i should have stated that. will be delivered tomorrow. the article i read mentioned using tubes even with tubeless tires.

 

Consider wire wheels very carefully.... They are super heavy and make an XJS ride very poorly. They're difficult to clean also tubes are not commonly available anymore. So in a pinch you might be stuck. I understand they do have a classic look though that appeals to many.

 

I would say do not put tubes into a tubeless tyre. If you do, you ruin the anti-puncture properties of a tubeless tyre - which resists small nail-type punctures. With a tube, a nail will puncture the tube and the ait will NOT be held in by the tubeless tyre as it all escapes round the outside of the valve stem wich is no longer held in position by the interior air pressure.

 

I would go with whatever Dayton recommends. My wires will not hold air and so I run tubes in the tires. I do carry a spare tube at all times, but finding a shop that even knows what a tube is, much less how to install one, is getting harder and harder. If you run tubes, make sure there are no burrs on the wheel and run your hands or a rag around inside the tire to make sure there is nothing to catch on the tube.

 

I will politely disagree. Yes, they are slightly heavier than stock alloys, but Dayton offers an aluminum wire that weighs in about the same as factory alloys if that is a concern. The car itself is so freak'n heavy itself that the wheels likely barely make a difference.

My first XJS had lattice alloys, and my second has dealer installed Dayton 72-spoke wires since new and there is no discernible difference in ride quality. When I first got this car, I intended to swap out the wires for lattice rims but in 30 years I've had ZERO problems and I'm glad I never made the swap.

The earlier 60-spoke Dayton's were however quite problematic.

 

one wheel has been delivered. UPS evidently can't get more than one box on the truck at a time !! beautiful wheel !! weighs 29.2 lbs without the spindle and knockoff. hopefully eveything else will get here at some point !

 

new? Then no, do not use tubes. Some people remember vaguely troubles with Dunlop and early Dayton wire wheels. Then religiously repeat it for decades.
If you could talk face to face with them chances are they’ve never actually owned a set of wire wheels, or remember cars from back in the 60’s. & 70’s

 

If the Daytons have black mastic around the hidden outside ends of the spokes, you should skip the tubes.

Your original reasoning of rust from “condensation of the air in the tires” sounds like nonsense. My old MGB had tubes, and rust Inside the rims, which no doubt was from puddles and non-sealed spokes. With the mastic on tubeless wheels and stainless spokes on Daytons you have nothing to worry about. Went that way with the MGB eventually.

I have aluminum wire wheels (Borrani’s) on one car and wow do they suck to polish.

 

Rust in the wheel interior can be lessened by using NITROGEN???

Pretty common to see GREEN valve stem caps these days.

bob

 

It's Ok to disagree and you're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. Factory 16 inch alloy is 17 LBS, Spoked wheel is said to be 29 LBS. That 58% heavier. I dont think its correct to characterize nearly double the weight as "slightly heavier". Add in the weight of a tube or mastic and you're looking at double the wheel weight easily.

Fact is a heavy wheel makes the car feel a bit more sluggish that it would feel with lighter wheels. Heavy wheels also amplifies road impacts to some degree. With extra wheel weight your shocks and tires have to be up to the job...If your shocks aren't the ride quality will be reduced and the force from the additional weight will less controlled.

Spoked wheels are attractive to some and I get that. They do look "right" on my neighbors XK120.

 

Whats the story on the 60 spoke Dayton’s? I’ve got an ‘85 on a set of 60 spokes.

edit: As to heavy wheels, the math isn’t so simple as “twice as heavy!”. The total mass of the moving suspension components is what matters. And the wheel is only a portion of that mass.

The front suspension arms, brake rotors, caliper, hub, tire etc, all in, is probably; I’m guessing; 100lbs?. So 15lbs +/- is neither huge nor inconsequential.

 

My own facts? Are you familiar with the concept of unsprung weight? The wheels are only part of the equation, and the correct math with all the components you'll find the difference is nowhere near double and perhaps in the neighborhood of "slightly heavier".

I apologize if this is an incorrect assumption, but I'm assuming you have no first hand experience with the XJS with both wire wheels and alloys. I will fully admit, that with the aid of precise instrumentation there would be a measurable difference in performance between the alloys and wires. However, I would also bet that if someone were blindfolded before they got behind the wheel and couldn't see which wheels were installed and assuming the tires are identical that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference. If we're talking about Racing or other extreme driving conditions that 99.9% of XJSs never experience then that's a whole different conversation.

No dispute that alloys are better, that's why Jaguar engineers spec'd them. However, your original assertion was that the wire wheels "are super heavy and make an XJS ride very poorly" -- which seems to be your opinion rather something based on facts or experience. Again, I apologize if that is an incorrect assumption on my part, but my polite disagreement was based on actual experience. Wire wheels have a poor reputation which isn't always based on reality.

 

I've used 100 spoke Daytons for 10 years now. No issue's. Pain to clean but they sure look good on my XJ12.

 

While I agree regarding appearance for performance Wires are at a disadvantage compared to Alloy wheels.
Since you have the 4 door sedan obviously performance isn’t your priority. That’s OK, we all vary. That’s what makes the world go around.
I make cleaning part of my evening. I pull the wheel off and set a piece of cardboard down, turn on the movie and start polishing. By the end of the movie the wheel is perfect and I’ve been entertained.
To be completely honest I Vintage raced a Jaguar for Decades on Chrome Dunlop wire wheels. Called the Black Jack Special. Built in 1958 by Jack Baker on a shortened Jaguar XK150 Chassis. The front Body was molded from Don Skogmo’s D type and the rear body mold was taken from his type 61 Birdcage Maserati.

my greatest success was finishing 2nd to Sir Stirling Moss in the 1986 Bahama speed weeks I did beat him in the Autocross.

I used wire wheels for 2 reasons. First that’s how it was originally raced. 2 nd wire wheels cool off faster under heavy braking because of heat radiation.

 

I dont understand this reply, very wishishy washy becasue you know I'm correct, technically and anecdotally and I'm going to prove it.

You clearly state "No dispute that alloys are better," ...becasue they are.

You apologize in advance for your "assumptions" as you should... becasue a 30 seconds search of my posts and projects would clearly indicate EXTENSIVE XJ experience. Additionally I have recent and direct experience with the Jaguar XJ and various wheel combinations. Just 2 months ago I switched over from alloy basket weaves to the correct and heavier steel rimmed wheel on a XJ. The ride was noticeably diminished over road imperfections. Off Topic...I also recently swapped to larger brake calipers and rotors on an Audi A8. The ride was diminished, but much less than I expected due to that platform having a stiffer frame, 17" tires with higher load rating and Bilstein Shocks. So the trade off for improved brake feel and performance is warranted in this case for my needs. The Audi spaceframe platform is at least 5 time stiffer than an XJ and that helps.

Scientifically speaking, Newtons 2nd law of motiion. F=MA. Where F = the force generated by the impact of the M or mass of the wheel which is A or accelerated up unto the body by the forward motion of hitting a road imperfection. Let's do so math to determine the difference...

XJ Front Hub, brakes, 1/2 the spring and shock 40 Lbs
XJ Tires (215/70/15) 25 Lbs
Alloy wheel 17 Lbs (probably less but I dont have a bare one to weight ATM)
Total 82Lbs or 37Kg

XJ Front Hub, brakes 1/2 the spring and shock 40 Lbs
XJ Tires (215/70/15) 25 Lbs
Steel Wire wheel 29 Lbs (probably more with mastic or a tube)
Total 94 Lbs or 42kg

The example... Hitting a 2 inch road imperfection at 35 MPH
This generated 25G's of force or an (A) acceleration rate of....244 M/sec^2.

The Math.. (F=ma)
Heavy wheel ... 42 x 244 = 10,248 Newtons (2302 Lbs of shock load)
Allow Wheel ... 37 x 244 = 9,028 Newtons (2030 Lbs of shock load)

The Result.
About 270Lbs of increased shock load or 14% for this example. If you want to know what this feels like in the car then have a seat inside and have an average man wack your wheel moderately with a 10Lbs sledge hammer, This will approximate 300Lbs of force.
This force increase is confirmed anecdotally becasue myself and many people have observed diminished ride quality with heavier wheels. This is no secret.

Conclusion
Mathematical proof ride quality will diminish with heavier wheels no matter the design. It's your car do with it what you see fit and what makes you happy but it's also true that heavier wheels diminish ride quality to some degree becasue resultant shock loads invariably increase to a very predictable degree. That degree may not be an issue for one particular driver in an area that has great roads. However...most of roads in the USA do have imperfections that have to be navigated.

Additional Comments
There is also an increased gyroscopic effect with a heavier steel wheel since the bulk of the weight is closer to the outer edge. Much more difficult math and way outside what can / should be detailed here.

Furthermore, heavier wheels are also subject to resultant forces from Newtons 1st law of motion. This is basically a resistance to change of direction which make impacts put a heavy load on the tire, wheel, rim, and all suspension components and ultimately the chassis which is then experience by the driver.

No doubt Wire wheels are attractive but compromised, kind of like Stiletto's, No doubt alloys are like track shoes, light, durable and efficient. I prefer to drive the latter and look at the former. That declaration brings up the subject of form vs. function, static vs. dynamic and where that line exists. Humans have been trying to blur that line forever and it's part of what makes us human and different from animals. Humans have 2 distinct way to blur the lines, technology and out right denial. Technologically speaking, humans can endeavor and use exotic materials at great expense to create a wire wheel that is strong light and attractive. The other way to blur the line is to simply deny a difference exists in the first place. One is a delusion to be avoided or accepted and the other is an endeavor that has great value to some. The line is a compromise and varies person to person. Do what works for you but no-one should suggest or be deluded in to thinking that compromise does not exist. Just accept it.

 

I'm really sorry you had to spend all that time typing up so much information that I already know.

I'm just not certain what point you're trying to make, or how it contradicts what I've stated. Have a great weekend.

Cheers

 

Not trying to contradict you. You did a good job of doing that to yourself.

Slow day at work, clarity though math. I probably should stop jabbing and clean my desk though. I did the math and posted becasue this was a pheomenon I experienced in the real-world but I never quantified it...so I just put out a portion of the work I did on a google sheet. If anyone is interested in the sheet, ask I can share it.

 

Fishbait1 - I'm sure the wires will look beautiful on your car so enjoy having the car the way you want.