I agree with Spikepaga. I could care less whether someone buys a 6 or 12 but for me I could not be happier with the AJ16. I am able to work on the engine with great accessibility and relative ease. Buy what you want and be ready to live with it. It just comes down to personal preference. In the end it is your time and money so each of us must decide for ourselves what works best for us. I respect those that choose to live with and work on the v12 but to say a XJS is only a XJS with a V12 is simply silly in my opinion.

 

Totally true.
But.
There is something so totally, childishly cool about saying that you drive a V12.
Or, you will be driving a V12 once you have sorted out the misfiring, overheating, electrical gremilns, gearbox mount, the annoying rumbling noise that you can't trace, the non-functioning aircon, the non-functioning cruise control, the..........., hang on where's my list?
It doesn't matter, it's a V12! Who else made one that gypsies, tramps and thieves could afford to buy?
There is nothing quite so special as heaving up the massive bonnet (hood) for a first time viewer and watching their expression go from mild interest to total incredulity; 'Wow. What? Jeez. What the hell is that, a plumbers van? Where the hell is the engine? It's that big and still develops less than 300 horses! You are mad.'
And then start it and they go 'There's something wrong with the starter motor, it sounds like a wet tumble drier'. And then it starts and they go 'Is it running yet?'.
And then you take them out and scare the poo out of them.
Lovely.

 

Although told with a touch of sarcasm, above comment is pretty much the V12 XJS reality. And add that the extra 1.3 Litre and six extra cylinders do not give the V12 much of an edge over the AJ6/AJ16 cars, mainly because of the tall, acceleration-robbing 2.88:1 final ratio. I can go over the details and sources on this again, but I've already entered it on previous threads and I don't want to repeat myself.

"And then you take them out and scare the poo out of them".

With what? With an XJR? With a Corvette? Yes, that I would believe, but with a 2.88:1 rear end?
I HAVE driven many pre-facelift V12 XJS' and they scare me in the manner that a Honda Civic scares me.


The V12 engine is a very challenging power plant by comparison and the person who initiated this thread inquiring should be told that those recommending the V12 over the six are pretty much those for whom "It doesn't matter, it's a V12" or those who would do whatever it takes to make their V12's drive like they should. Most V12 owners in this forum are guys who, over years of trial and tribulation, have acquired the experience and the specific expertise required to keep the car running without surrending their wallet to anybody. They are the only ones who can enjoy and be proud of their V12 under the hood, but they are the exception, the great exception, because in reality, the majority of whatever V12's are running around today are doing so either on 9, or 11 cylinders, or polluting the air or on the verge of some catastrophic breakdown, etc. This is because it is either too much and too complex work for the uninitiated, or simply they cannot afford to pay over and over for their XJS to keep running right. It is, precisely for those, that, luckily, there are straight six Jags available out there, beautiful and reliable facelift XJS'.

Cheers,

 

Heh, heh....you're right. Not much to be scared of, power-wise, with the 5.3 V12s.

The 6.0 V12s have a bit of wallop but even they are tame by today's standards.






Which actually can be done with fairly little effort, as all the faults, quirks, and fixes are so well documented.

I realize that "fairly little effort" can mean different things to different people.




It isn't a black art. Any decent DIYer can do it. The info is out there. The only thing lacking in some cases is the willingness to simply dig in do *everything* that needs to be done.

True enough that if a person steps blindly into V12 ownership he might be in for a very rude awakening. But if you go into a V12 armed with the so-easily-available information there's a lot of satisfaction to be gained and enjoyment to be had.

Yes, some effort is required. And a 20-25 year old Jag is unlikely to be a "drive it and forget it" type of car no matter which engine sits under the hood. And, frankly, buying a six cylinder jag is no guarantee of easy ownership. The AJ16 engine in my XJR, for instance, hasn't exactly been a pleasure cruise in all respects....thanks mostly to engine managment system. I've had multiple driveabilty issues over the years.

In fact, when my Ser III sedan (with the 5.3 V12) project is done the XJR is going down the road! As much as love the XJR I'm looking forward to easier-to-diagnose faults and not having to rely on dealer-level equipment to reprogram/recalibrate systems after repairs.




True enough!




If they care to remain uninitiated, yes.




Yup, if you have to pay retail labor rates to look after a V12 Jag you better have deep pockets. And shops that are willing to work on them, and know the little quirks and tricks, are not always easy to find.

DIY is the only practical way for a person of ordinary means to own a V12 Jag.



Yup, owning a V12 Jag isn't for everybody! It can be a great choice for some, though.

Cheers
DD

 

In my experience, by any standards, the V12 XJS in decent condition with AJ6 mods is a very fast car from 90 to 140 mph. Without the mods it is still impressive in this range, but noticeably less punchy. I believe that this is the main difference between the 6 cylinder and 12 cylinder cars - their relative feel in the upper speed range.

There is also a very hard to articulate - but nevertheless real - qualitative difference between the driving experience provided by each of the two. I completely agree that either is is great car, and I have owned both sorts, but I believe it is untrue to indicate there are no distinct differences between them.

 

Great replies and advice, everybody.
I am leaning towards a V12 and I have a local mechanic who actually likes V12 Jags

this one popped up for sale a few days ago - Jaguar xjs 1994 | Trade Me - crud pictures, but car sounds good. I rang the owner - he reckons he has only done 500km since buying it in 2008 (he bought it as an investment!), and it therefore has had no servicing in 5-6 years - not even coolant/oil change.. a bit of a worry. Also, he wants NZD$30,000 - about 15,000 pounds. A lot. He may be dreaming - "tell him he's dreaming" (to quote the Castle)

My wife is not keen on another car. There are 3 moderns in the drive (X300, Subaru, Ford) and my other Coventry car, a 1928 Alvis, in the garage. I need a new house with a big shed..

 

the 6 lovers on this thread, cant do this,pic enclosed, V12 forever!!!

(and who would want to?,only guys with big ones) LOL,LOL.

my front plate quote "REAL bad boys drive 12 cylinders"

 

Do you primarily drive 90 to 140 mph? Did you buy a Jag to do burnouts? Do you enjoy filling up your gas tank often? Do you like busting your knuckles while being bent over your engine trying to work your way around overly cramped engine compartments? Do you like going into shock when your parts person tells you how much parts will cost on your V-12 tune up? Do you have a degree in mechanical engineering? Do you enjoy the challenge of spending 6 hours changing a power steering hose?

If you answered yes to any of the above questions then you probably should be driving a V-12 XJS. The point is drive what you like and be ready to live with it. I know the 4.0L is not a V-12 but that is what I wanted and that is what I am willing to live with. If I had been the type of person who answered yes to any of the above questions I am sure I would have purchased a V-12 XJS but I was not.

Truth be told most of our XJS' whether 6 or 12 could be taken quite easily by most modern cars with much smaller engines. Drive what puts a smile on your face and be happy. I have the utmost respect for those of you who can keep a V-12 running right. For myself I would not own a XJS if it was not available with the 4.0L. That is why my front license plate quote will be; " OWNER HAS A BIG PACKAGE AND A LOVELY AND SMOOTH 6 CYL " - LOL!!!!!!

 

Nope!




Nope! But it IS sorta fun from time-to-time






Now that's just a silly question !





Well, when you're all done you really have a sense of accomplishment! Plus, it's excellent discipline to work slowly and contemplatively . Soon enough you learn to savor every little step.





Oh c'mon, now! The V12 stuff isn't so bad! Have you looked at the prices of AJ16 coils and water pumps?





No college education at all in my case. Never got past 12th grade. If I can run a V12, anyone can . You just hafta *want* it enough, that's all.




Only at the moment when I'm all done. The previous 6 hours are misery!

Cheers
DD

 

I absolutely agree that you should drive what you like and love it. For the record, my answers are in red above. But, while lots of cars can do 0 to 60 in 6 to 7 seconds, very few can live with a decent V12 above 90 and those that can are WAY more expensive. And NONE of them can do 400 fast miles in a day and leave you wishing for more!

Greg

 

Just for the record Ronbros ; Are you doing that burnout with a stock V-12? I only ask because I did not think the stock 5.3 was known for doing burnouts like that.

And in all fairness Doug were you having problems with the good quality coils from Japan? At what mileage did you start having issues with the orig. coils and water pump? How much is a water pump for the AJ16 or do I want to know? They do look expensive but I have never priced one out.

By the way I threw in the mechanical engineering degree part just because there is a ton of parts on top of the V-12 and again I have all the respect in the world for those of you that know where they all go.

 

this thread sounds like the Ford VS Chevy guys, it just goes on and on!

gotta love it!

 

Nope!

But, the point is the point is, owners of AJ16s can reasonably expect coil failures....probably multiple coil failures....and you'll spend anywhere from $100-$200 each for replacements. More if you buy from Jaguar. That's not inexpensive. A v12 coil is about $50 !


About 100k mies and 60k miles respectively


New OEM water pumps for the AJ16 are $400+ each. Gah! Fortunately are replacements now being sold for about $160 each. That's about the same, perhaps more, than a V12 pump.

All I'm really trying to say is that most V12 parts are not particularly expensive.


CHeers
DD

 

High speed capability is a traditional Euro priority, preference. Conversely, here in America we crave low end torque with serious acceleration capability because, in our car culture frame of mind, we find far more "use" to it than taking the car to 140 mph (unless this happens within a 1/4 mile...).

Here is a typical example: My XJR is supposed to go up to 155 mph, but it can also go 0 to 60 in 5.2 seconds. Which feature do I prefer? Hands down, I love that awesome low end acceleration (and who doesn't?), but I'm not that much into taking it to 155 mph, along with the risk of getting caught. I'd bet that many owners agree. Thus, the V12's high speed capability has a limited merit. How many XJS shoppers would say that their priority is that they get a 140 mph car?

 

Doug, to your point about needing dealer scan tools to reset/recalibrate critical functions has me concerned for the future. I've recently thrown in the towel on my '96 VDP with 122K miles. Two years of chasing intermittent drive ability problems and searching for a decent, used dealer scan tool without success. The car became increasingly unreliable to the point of being undriveable and was replaced with a '90 VDP Majestic. Nice car, well taken care of, low mileage simpler engine controls and as far as I know a dealer scan tool is not a necessity...?

As my '95 XJS ages and the miles are piled on I have fears the same can/will happen. So a Series III XJ6 and/or a V-12 XJS coupe are in my mind...

 

There's nothing like a supercharger, even on a six-cylinder I'll miss that torque when I eventually say goodbye to my XJR

Fortunately there are some fairly easy ways to wake up the V12.

As for the high-end speeds, I agree. Going 140 mph really doesn't interest me all that much.

Cheers
DD

 

Come on now! If you own one of these cars, regardless of engine, you're not going to the dealer to buy your parts. The OEM price for either water pump is about the same, but lets get to the brass tacks...

I'm willing to spend $100 on a rebuilt one because I can replace mine at least twice as quickly as you'll be able to replace yours... I'll bet you're quoting OEM prices because you know if you ever have to replace that thing, not only will it take you an entire weekend, but you're going to spend more money fixing more things when you dig in.

As far as coils, so they start to fail (allegedly) after 100k miles or so. They do that on all the other cars too. I've replaced four of my six coils on the Ford Taurus with 180k miles on the clock.

It's not like I have to drive with a spare distributor and a fire extinguisher or anything like that.

While you're comparing prices, how much does your AAV cost you? Compare that with what the sixes have to shell out.

 

Last time I checked in 2008, I think, a new AJ16 water pump the dealer was more like $600. I found OEM for about $400 and no-name (but new) for about $160



And for many people ease-of-repair is important consideration. Most V12 enthusiasts really don't care that much.

I don't think anyone will ever say that V12s are easy to work on. They're not. You gotta be patient and go in with the right frame of mind.





Like what? Some hoses and belts, maybe? That's pretty common on any car, really. But, yeah, a Jag v12 does has some special needs that are usually not tended to by previous owners. So....ya fix 'em and forget about 'em for another 10 years or whatever. Not really that big of a deal.



In fairness the pattern pretty much takes AJ16 coil failures out of the "allegedly" category. It actually pretty common for the OE coils to fail. Of course the sub-par cheapie replacements are junk, as we're learning....and that can't be blamed on Jaguar.



No argument from me on that; I don't believe I ever suggested otherwise.




If a V12 owners does the very simple things that we all know need to be done then he has no reason to carry a fire extinguisher. I never did !

And I don't know of any that carry an spare distributor ! I do, however, carry spare Aj16 coils in my trunk .





Never bought one but they're $300-$400 new as I understand.



The AJ16 doesn't have an AAV.

But, anyhow, parts costs for a Jag V12 just aren't all that bad. That's all I'm trying to say. It's not like a Ferrari v12 where you'll spend $650 on a distributor cap. If a person wants/likes/enjoys a V12 the parts prices are not gonna be a deal breaker. In fact, many V12 owners lavish money all over them quite willingly.

If a person clearly doesn't want/like/enjoy a V12 then that's a different story ...and they shouldn't buy one to begin with. They're not for everybody. I think we all can agree on that.

The pros and cons are well known and often discussed. If a person is on the edge after hearing 'em, I say "go for it".

Cheers
DD

 

It is all very much a "horses for courses" sort of thing.

The XJS in either guise is a wonderful car, quiet, luxurious, smooth riding and elegant. Both the V12 and AJ6/16 engines are terrific and, when properly maintained, very reliable. With any car that is 2-3 decades of age, owner involvement in maintenance (or deep pockets) is a must but as others have said, it's all part of the fun.

The OP appears to be looking for performance? Now that can mean a lot of different things to different people. Certainly you can convert ANY car into a dragster and do burnouts if that's your thing, it all depends what you're looking for

For me, performance is about agility and quickness in daily use rather than top speed or qtr mile times that you can rarely experience. I love pushing my car in the twisty bits of the mountains, balancing the car in the turns using the throttle and then also cruising at 80mph on the highway in the lap of luxury. For me that ability is what makes the AJ6 with manual transmission the best combination, though I'm sure the 6L/4sp would be a close competitor.

In daily use the 5.3L/3spd/2.88 diff combo is lethargic. Yes it is smooth and acceleration has that rubber band seamless elasticity feeling but the gear ratios make it slow off the line and the 400 tranny is hardly spritely in gear changes. I did some quick calculations that perhaps illustrate this point of view a little better.

For 5.3L/3spd/2.88 diff/235/60/15 tyre
1st gear = 10.7mph per 1,000rpm
2nd gear = 17.8mph per 1,000rpm
3rd gear = 26.7mph per 1,000rpm

For 4.0L/5spd/3.54 diff/225/55/16 tyre
1st gear = 6.1mph per 1,000rpm
2nd gear = 10.6mph per 1,000rpm
3rd gear = 15.5mph per 1,000rpm
4th gear = 21.6mph per 1,000rpm
5th gear = 29.6mph per 1,000rpm

As you can see taking off in the stock V12 is akin to taking off in 2nd gear in the AJ6 manual. That's asking a lot of from the relatively small torque gain in the V12 (max 306lb/ft vs 278lb/ft). Also the wide spacing of gear ratios in the 3spd creates "dead spots" when calling for passing power at certain speeds. So yes the 5.3L is a marvel when accelerating from 120-140mph but a bit of a granny when a bit more oomph is called for at 40-50mph. I know which I would prefer and having been to the beautiful islands of New Zealand, I reckon the same would apply

Initial acceleration is just part of the performance equation though, suspension setup, weight and wheel/tyre combination have a significant effect too. Again to my way of thinking the manual AJ6 car trumps the V12 in this regard. How so?

All 5spd XJS's came standard from the factory with the "Sportspack" setup. This includes significantly uprated springs and dampers (43% stiffer springs up front), larger wheels (16") with lower profile tyres (55Zr's), thicker anti-roll bar, reduced power steering assistance (for better feel). The Sportspack option was available for V12's in certain years but few were sold that way as it just did not match the rest of the drivetrain or the car's mission.

Add those factors to the extra 200-250lbs sitting over the front axle and the 15" 70 aspect ratio wheel/tyre combo of the V12 and you will have a car that wants to push the nose in a corner and roll over the gyres. Not great for sporty handling IMHO.

Of course you can make mods to either car to make them faster/handle better. But to me it's clear which car Jaguar intended to be the sportier of the two. Your mileage may vary

Here is a contemporary review of the 5spd and I think the reviewer pretty much nails it.
1994*Jaguar*XJS Review By Richard Truett

 

Good posting, and accurate, Allan.

I agree that a 4.0/5-speed would be a great choice (see post #3 in this thread).

Heck, any 4.0 XJS would the right choice for many would-be Jag owners.

But, agreeing on that (assuming most of us do) doesn't make the V12 a bad choice for all would-be owners. For some people the V12 is a *great* choice. That's all I'm tryin' to say

Like Jaguar itself, or Lucas electrics, I feel that the V12s are too harshly maligned. Often as not by those who haven't owned one, I think.

Cheers
DD