08' XKR Convert - Good deal??
#21
Thanks again for educating me fellas - this seems like a great forum.
I think I'm going to slow down the process on this one. 3 owners is just seems like a lot and if I went to sell it I'd have to tell the person I'm the 4th. I never keep my cars that long so that could be a problem. I do think the seller is ligit however and the car is in good shape (other than that scratch). He did try to argue that fixing that scratch would only be $500, but I'm not buying that.
I'll run the reports today and see what they have to say. Jaguar dealer can't do an inspection for 7 days anyway. As much as I like these cars, the depreciation seems astonishing. I mean this thing could be worth high 20's in a year?? I don't see a 911 depreciating to that level and it's a pretty nice machine as well. Same for a vette although I know it's in a different class.
Thanks again and will keep you posted
I think I'm going to slow down the process on this one. 3 owners is just seems like a lot and if I went to sell it I'd have to tell the person I'm the 4th. I never keep my cars that long so that could be a problem. I do think the seller is ligit however and the car is in good shape (other than that scratch). He did try to argue that fixing that scratch would only be $500, but I'm not buying that.
I'll run the reports today and see what they have to say. Jaguar dealer can't do an inspection for 7 days anyway. As much as I like these cars, the depreciation seems astonishing. I mean this thing could be worth high 20's in a year?? I don't see a 911 depreciating to that level and it's a pretty nice machine as well. Same for a vette although I know it's in a different class.
Thanks again and will keep you posted
Jaguar : XK Base Convertible 2-Door in Jaguar | eBay Motors
I ran across this today as I am looking everyday to see whats out there in the secondary market. Looks doable at about $39,000.
I decoded the VIN:
2010 Jaguar XK-Series XK Portfolio Convertible
GeneralEquipmentColorsRecalls
VIN SAJWA4GB4ALB36769
Vehicle Accidents/Service Get Vehicle History Report NOW
Year 2010 Engine Type 5.0L V8 DOHC 32V
Make Jaguar Driveline RWD
Model XK-Series Ground Clearance 4.70 in.
Trim Level XK Portfolio Convertible Front Brake Type Disc
Manufactured In UNITED KINGDOM Rear Brake Type Disc
Body Style CONVERTIBLE 2-DR Anti-Brake System 4-Wheel ABS
Transmission 6-Speed Automatic Overdrive
Standard Seating 4
MPG Hwy No data miles/gallon Optional Seating No data
MPG City No data miles/gallon Tires 245/40R19
Dealer Invoice $80,217 USD Wheelbase 108.30 in.
MSRP $88,150 USD Curb Weight 3924 lbs
Last edited by richzak; 07-26-2013 at 12:36 PM.
#22
Thanks Rich. For those who have been following my search, I ran the carfax report on 08' convert XKR Portfolio:
3rd owner. 1st owner leased it for 3 years and put 16k on it. 2nd owner only had it a year, put 4k on it. No accident reports. No major issues at all reported. 2nd owner bought it from Monterey, Ca. Jaguar as a jaguar select certified pre-owned vehicle. Battery, Tires, brake pads, wipers, replaced at 16k by Monterey Jag prior to the sale to the 2nd owner. The AC hose was done at 20k miles. Been in California since delivery.
Must say, the report looks pretty solid as does the car. As it stands he wants $43,500. Again, 08' XKR Portfolio in great shape except for a small scratch on the back right corner that he filled in with touch up paint...about an inch long. It has an extended warranty for what that's worth.
Any further thoughts based on the above guys?? Thanks again.
3rd owner. 1st owner leased it for 3 years and put 16k on it. 2nd owner only had it a year, put 4k on it. No accident reports. No major issues at all reported. 2nd owner bought it from Monterey, Ca. Jaguar as a jaguar select certified pre-owned vehicle. Battery, Tires, brake pads, wipers, replaced at 16k by Monterey Jag prior to the sale to the 2nd owner. The AC hose was done at 20k miles. Been in California since delivery.
Must say, the report looks pretty solid as does the car. As it stands he wants $43,500. Again, 08' XKR Portfolio in great shape except for a small scratch on the back right corner that he filled in with touch up paint...about an inch long. It has an extended warranty for what that's worth.
Any further thoughts based on the above guys?? Thanks again.
#23
Thanks Rich. For those who have been following my search, I ran the carfax report on 08' convert XKR Portfolio:
3rd owner. 1st owner leased it for 3 years and put 16k on it. 2nd owner only had it a year, put 4k on it. No accident reports. No major issues at all reported. 2nd owner bought it from Monterey, Ca. Jaguar as a jaguar select certified pre-owned vehicle. Battery, Tires, brake pads, wipers, replaced at 16k by Monterey Jag prior to the sale to the 2nd owner. The AC hose was done at 20k miles. Been in California since delivery.
Must say, the report looks pretty solid as does the car. As it stands he wants $43,500. Again, 08' XKR Portfolio in great shape except for a small scratch on the back right corner that he filled in with touch up paint...about an inch long. It has an extended warranty for what that's worth.
Any further thoughts based on the above guys?? Thanks again.
3rd owner. 1st owner leased it for 3 years and put 16k on it. 2nd owner only had it a year, put 4k on it. No accident reports. No major issues at all reported. 2nd owner bought it from Monterey, Ca. Jaguar as a jaguar select certified pre-owned vehicle. Battery, Tires, brake pads, wipers, replaced at 16k by Monterey Jag prior to the sale to the 2nd owner. The AC hose was done at 20k miles. Been in California since delivery.
Must say, the report looks pretty solid as does the car. As it stands he wants $43,500. Again, 08' XKR Portfolio in great shape except for a small scratch on the back right corner that he filled in with touch up paint...about an inch long. It has an extended warranty for what that's worth.
Any further thoughts based on the above guys?? Thanks again.
I think you like the car, and may be leaning towards the purchase, so at this point it is most likely, that you like the car. Only concern would be the possible wobble, but if the CarFax is recently up to date then you could probably move forward. Although the car I sent you on eBay is not a XKR which menas it's not Supercharged, I think the 2010 with 9930 miles for $39,000 to $39,500 might be a better buy. It also has the 5.0 Litre vs the 4.2 litre engine. Don't get worried about shipping a car either. It is easy and fairly reasonable. I had my XKR shipped from Palm Beach, FL to Las Cruces, NM for $980.00 which was a good fair price, without any problems during shipping.
It's reasonable for a 2008 to have a few rock nicks or slight scratches so what you are describing appears normal. You know the car better than anybody here on the forum, so I would think at this point, the ball is in your court and time to make a decision. While I am one to really check out items that I am going to buy, I also say "No Guts, No Glory".
Let us know what you decide and do, anxious to see some photos.
#24
Thanks Rich - You've been very helpful. Here is the link to the car if you're interested:
Jaguar 2008 XKR Portfolio
Decisions, Decisions. Jaguar Dealership can't do an inspection for a week. I think that wobble was much about nothing. I'd be offering cash. I'm starting to think $40k - he probably be insulted by that offer, but I feel comfortable with that offer.
Jaguar 2008 XKR Portfolio
Decisions, Decisions. Jaguar Dealership can't do an inspection for a week. I think that wobble was much about nothing. I'd be offering cash. I'm starting to think $40k - he probably be insulted by that offer, but I feel comfortable with that offer.
#25
Remember, "He who has cash, holds the gold". You have the upper hand. Start low, and you can always go up. Have a firm price that you will budget for the car, then work from there. You still have to pay CA sales tax on the purchase, registration, plates, and insurance. This is all part of the outlay of cash.
From the photo, looks like you may have most of the options, like Alcon brake calipers and Active Cruise Control.
I am not sure that Jaguar in 2008 only imported 200 into the USA. I could be wrong. Car looks nice. I know on my 2009, I have seen many articles documenting the 2009 Portfolio Edition and the production 200 only for USA import. Also appears that the 2008 PE was Celestial Black paint.
I see the ad is based from Craigslist, which I personally feel pretty shaky about Craigslist ads.
Have you actually seen the car?
Have you driven the car?
Some articles on 2008 XKR Portfolio Edition......
2008 Jaguar XKR Portfolio Edition - Car News - Car and Driver
Drive Line: 2008 JAGUAR XKR PORTFOLIO
I know one thing for sure, I love my 2009 XKR Convert Portfolio Edition and it always turns heads. I took the car to the self wash today to hand wash and wax it. I had several people walk over to the car, and provide lots of compliments, with most asking "what is it".
From the photo, looks like you may have most of the options, like Alcon brake calipers and Active Cruise Control.
I am not sure that Jaguar in 2008 only imported 200 into the USA. I could be wrong. Car looks nice. I know on my 2009, I have seen many articles documenting the 2009 Portfolio Edition and the production 200 only for USA import. Also appears that the 2008 PE was Celestial Black paint.
I see the ad is based from Craigslist, which I personally feel pretty shaky about Craigslist ads.
Have you actually seen the car?
Have you driven the car?
Some articles on 2008 XKR Portfolio Edition......
2008 Jaguar XKR Portfolio Edition - Car News - Car and Driver
Drive Line: 2008 JAGUAR XKR PORTFOLIO
I know one thing for sure, I love my 2009 XKR Convert Portfolio Edition and it always turns heads. I took the car to the self wash today to hand wash and wax it. I had several people walk over to the car, and provide lots of compliments, with most asking "what is it".
Last edited by richzak; 07-26-2013 at 04:32 PM.
#26
Wobble caused by warped/out-of-round brake rotors is a very big concern since Alcon rotors are so expensive. List price is $690 each! Don't waste your money having warped rotors turned, unless you're getting ready to sell the car. It's only a matter of time until turned rotors warp again.
If the front rotors are warped, you should negotiate a lower purchase price by at least $1,600 to cover the rotors, pads, and installation. Get a price from your local Jaguar dealer as the basis for your offer.
I had my dealer check my Alcon brakes at 30K miles. Front pads had about another 5K miles left on them and the rotors were in great shape with no scoring. Instead of waiting until my pads got down to the wear sensors, I decided to replace them without turning the rotors. Turned out great, with no squeaks or pulling to one side. I decided to stay with the OEM pads since that compound did not damage the rotors and I could live with the excessive brake dust. Not having to replace the front Alcon rotors saved me well over $1,000.
Stuart
If the front rotors are warped, you should negotiate a lower purchase price by at least $1,600 to cover the rotors, pads, and installation. Get a price from your local Jaguar dealer as the basis for your offer.
I had my dealer check my Alcon brakes at 30K miles. Front pads had about another 5K miles left on them and the rotors were in great shape with no scoring. Instead of waiting until my pads got down to the wear sensors, I decided to replace them without turning the rotors. Turned out great, with no squeaks or pulling to one side. I decided to stay with the OEM pads since that compound did not damage the rotors and I could live with the excessive brake dust. Not having to replace the front Alcon rotors saved me well over $1,000.
Stuart
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richzak (07-26-2013)
#27
I met a guy who trades his cars out very frequently, and may have up to 12 at a time in his "collection" (he may be bragging a little bit). His hobby doesn't cost him much money as he moves them around quickly and buy's low, sells high, etc. He purchased his XK8 at $15,000, which is about the plateau these things reach, and he'll probably sell it for $16,000 when he gets around to it.
The point is, a 2008 is still in depreciation free-fall, and you'll lose money on it. Go into it knowing that, and you'll buy it for the right reasons. If you're trying to do what that guy I mentioned is doing (sell it in 6 months for a wash), you'll need to buy a much older model.
The point is, a 2008 is still in depreciation free-fall, and you'll lose money on it. Go into it knowing that, and you'll buy it for the right reasons. If you're trying to do what that guy I mentioned is doing (sell it in 6 months for a wash), you'll need to buy a much older model.
#28
Wobble caused by warped/out-of-round brake rotors is a very big concern since Alcon rotors are so expensive. List price is $690 each! Don't waste your money having warped rotors turned, unless you're getting ready to sell the car. It's only a matter of time until turned rotors warp again.
If the front rotors are warped, you should negotiate a lower purchase price by at least $1,600 to cover the rotors, pads, and installation. Get a price from your local Jaguar dealer as the basis for your offer.
I had my dealer check my Alcon brakes at 30K miles. Front pads had about another 5K miles left on them and the rotors were in great shape with no scoring. Instead of waiting until my pads got down to the wear sensors, I decided to replace them without turning the rotors. Turned out great, with no squeaks or pulling to one side. I decided to stay with the OEM pads since that compound did not damage the rotors and I could live with the excessive brake dust. Not having to replace the front Alcon rotors saved me well over $1,000.
Stuart
If the front rotors are warped, you should negotiate a lower purchase price by at least $1,600 to cover the rotors, pads, and installation. Get a price from your local Jaguar dealer as the basis for your offer.
I had my dealer check my Alcon brakes at 30K miles. Front pads had about another 5K miles left on them and the rotors were in great shape with no scoring. Instead of waiting until my pads got down to the wear sensors, I decided to replace them without turning the rotors. Turned out great, with no squeaks or pulling to one side. I decided to stay with the OEM pads since that compound did not damage the rotors and I could live with the excessive brake dust. Not having to replace the front Alcon rotors saved me well over $1,000.
Stuart
Thanks for the info Stuart. This was good to know on the brake pads. I only have 14,300 miles on the car, so it will be awhile on the replacement pads.
#29
The number of owners should not deter you from buying a legit good car at a good price. I just bought a 2013 XKR with 318 miles on it with leather sickers still on the seats and the carfax report says there has been 2 previous owners. The original dealer told me the guy that bought the car probably never even set in it. He has bought 6 cars in the last couple of months. Accidents, floods etc. is what you need to be looking for. Check salvaged.com and run the VIN on a google search. I
#30
NCIB provides a free VIN check for salvaged titles: https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck
You got a problem with that? Miss youse guys...
Stuart
#31
Some information on SALVAGED TITLE cars:
A Salvage Vehicle is a vehicle that has been wrecked or damaged to such an extent that it is considered too expensive to repair. The title, license plates, and a required fee are submitted to the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) and a Salvage Certificate is issued for the vehicle.
A Revived Salvage is a salvage vehicle which has been repaired and reregistered with the DMV.
===
How To Identify a Salvaged Vehicle
First, look at the title. The title will tell you:
* If the vehicle is salvaged.
* The mileage when the vehicle was last sold.
* Who the owner of record is.
Sellers, including dealerships, are legally required to disclose the vehicle’s salvage title and history, but the law is difficult to enforce, especially when cars come in from another state. Be sure the seller is indeed the owner. If the seller isn’t the owner or an authorized agent for the owner, he or she is not entitled to sell the vehicle, and you are not entitled to buy it. If the seller’s name is not on the title, there must be documentation, such as a bill of sale, dealer report of sale, or power of attorney, authorizing that person to sell the vehicle.
Next, inspect the vehicle itself. Some of the following "clues" may indicate the vehicle has an undisclosed salvage history.
* Signs of major repairs on the inner fender structures.
* Mud, mold, or rust under the carpet in the trunk.
* Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) plate attached with materials other than rivets.
* Safety restraint light is always on.
* Airbag covers are resealed or improperly installed.
* National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) labels which usually appear on doors, inside hood, tailgate, or hatchback are missing.
Source of Info obtained from the State of California DMV.
A Salvage Vehicle is a vehicle that has been wrecked or damaged to such an extent that it is considered too expensive to repair. The title, license plates, and a required fee are submitted to the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) and a Salvage Certificate is issued for the vehicle.
A Revived Salvage is a salvage vehicle which has been repaired and reregistered with the DMV.
===
How To Identify a Salvaged Vehicle
First, look at the title. The title will tell you:
* If the vehicle is salvaged.
* The mileage when the vehicle was last sold.
* Who the owner of record is.
Sellers, including dealerships, are legally required to disclose the vehicle’s salvage title and history, but the law is difficult to enforce, especially when cars come in from another state. Be sure the seller is indeed the owner. If the seller isn’t the owner or an authorized agent for the owner, he or she is not entitled to sell the vehicle, and you are not entitled to buy it. If the seller’s name is not on the title, there must be documentation, such as a bill of sale, dealer report of sale, or power of attorney, authorizing that person to sell the vehicle.
Next, inspect the vehicle itself. Some of the following "clues" may indicate the vehicle has an undisclosed salvage history.
* Signs of major repairs on the inner fender structures.
* Mud, mold, or rust under the carpet in the trunk.
* Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) plate attached with materials other than rivets.
* Safety restraint light is always on.
* Airbag covers are resealed or improperly installed.
* National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) labels which usually appear on doors, inside hood, tailgate, or hatchback are missing.
Source of Info obtained from the State of California DMV.
#32
#33
FYI: Four graphs of all used 2007-2009 model XKRs listed on Cars.com on 7/26/13 (over 50 data points). All cars are averaged together regardless of options, condition, etc.
Graph 1: All data points for all three years. x=mileage, y=price. You can start seeing trends, although the 2009s are all over the map.
Graph 2-4: Each year separated out with a trend line drawn in. You could consider starting at the mileage and moving up until you hit the trend line. that is the asking price for an average XKR listed on cars.com, retail (dealers) with that mileage. It's a place to start.
e.g. an average dealer retail for a 2008 XKR, with 22,000 miles, for sale right now in the US, is ~$50,000. Although I now see one data point is obviously skewing the data. I'm not going to run a t-test on it, let's just throw it out and get graph 5 (next post).
Graph 1: All data points for all three years. x=mileage, y=price. You can start seeing trends, although the 2009s are all over the map.
Graph 2-4: Each year separated out with a trend line drawn in. You could consider starting at the mileage and moving up until you hit the trend line. that is the asking price for an average XKR listed on cars.com, retail (dealers) with that mileage. It's a place to start.
e.g. an average dealer retail for a 2008 XKR, with 22,000 miles, for sale right now in the US, is ~$50,000. Although I now see one data point is obviously skewing the data. I'm not going to run a t-test on it, let's just throw it out and get graph 5 (next post).
Last edited by Muddydog; 07-27-2013 at 02:47 AM.
#34
#35
Screw the graphs.........look at the NADA.com website and go from there. The NADA.com website and NADA book is one well respected company who updates there values monthly based on the region that the automobile is being sold in. Call a Jaguar dealer, ask for the finance manager and ask the guy/gal what the NADA private party value is to confirm. I am sure they will help.
The car is being sold by a private party, not a dealer, so he won't get dealer retail. If I was buying the car, I would make my offer that is reasonable, and if the seller didn't take it then I would let it pass.
I learned long ago at a younger age, don't chase the price of a car, because you like so much, that it becomes an impulse buy.
There are lots of opportunities to buy these cars, but the buyer also has to be open to the possiblity of making an out of state purchase and having the car transported.
2008 Jaguar XK Convertible XKR Supercharged Prices, Values & XK Convertible XKR Supercharged Price Specs | NADAguides
2008 Jaguar XK-Series XK What's it Worth?
Suggest that you consider $41,000 to $42,000 max.
Otherwise continue to shop around.
Did you actually see and drive the car?
The car is being sold by a private party, not a dealer, so he won't get dealer retail. If I was buying the car, I would make my offer that is reasonable, and if the seller didn't take it then I would let it pass.
I learned long ago at a younger age, don't chase the price of a car, because you like so much, that it becomes an impulse buy.
There are lots of opportunities to buy these cars, but the buyer also has to be open to the possiblity of making an out of state purchase and having the car transported.
2008 Jaguar XK Convertible XKR Supercharged Prices, Values & XK Convertible XKR Supercharged Price Specs | NADAguides
2008 Jaguar XK-Series XK What's it Worth?
Suggest that you consider $41,000 to $42,000 max.
Otherwise continue to shop around.
Did you actually see and drive the car?
#36
Thanks yet again Rich and thanks for the graphs and input Mdog.
Yep, I drove it. I saw it. Beautiful car and drives great. Pulled the carfax and it was clean. Plus new tires, brake pads and the AC hose thing was fix all at 16k miles. The car is also 5 minutes from my house which an added convenience. I'd really like it for 40k cash, but he's pretty pissed I'm balking at his rock bottom price of 43.5. He keeps telling me what a great price he's offering to me for, but can't explain why it hasn't moved in over 3 weeks. He also says I'm not getting the correct numbers from NADA because it doesn't account for the portfolio package...and he may be right about that.
Think I'll put the 40 offer out there...take it or leave it and move on.
Yep, I drove it. I saw it. Beautiful car and drives great. Pulled the carfax and it was clean. Plus new tires, brake pads and the AC hose thing was fix all at 16k miles. The car is also 5 minutes from my house which an added convenience. I'd really like it for 40k cash, but he's pretty pissed I'm balking at his rock bottom price of 43.5. He keeps telling me what a great price he's offering to me for, but can't explain why it hasn't moved in over 3 weeks. He also says I'm not getting the correct numbers from NADA because it doesn't account for the portfolio package...and he may be right about that.
Think I'll put the 40 offer out there...take it or leave it and move on.
#37
Thanks yet again Rich and thanks for the graphs and input Mdog.
Yep, I drove it. I saw it. Beautiful car and drives great. Pulled the carfax and it was clean. Plus new tires, brake pads and the AC hose thing was fix all at 16k miles. The car is also 5 minutes from my house which an added convenience. I'd really like it for 40k cash, but he's pretty pissed I'm balking at his rock bottom price of 43.5. He keeps telling me what a great price he's offering to me for, but can't explain why it hasn't moved in over 3 weeks. He also says I'm not getting the correct numbers from NADA because it doesn't account for the portfolio package...and he may be right about that.
Think I'll put the 40 offer out there...take it or leave it and move on.
Yep, I drove it. I saw it. Beautiful car and drives great. Pulled the carfax and it was clean. Plus new tires, brake pads and the AC hose thing was fix all at 16k miles. The car is also 5 minutes from my house which an added convenience. I'd really like it for 40k cash, but he's pretty pissed I'm balking at his rock bottom price of 43.5. He keeps telling me what a great price he's offering to me for, but can't explain why it hasn't moved in over 3 weeks. He also says I'm not getting the correct numbers from NADA because it doesn't account for the portfolio package...and he may be right about that.
Think I'll put the 40 offer out there...take it or leave it and move on.
#38
I wouldn't put a lot of value in the '08 Portfolio options because of its age, and since the upgrades on newer years have really surpassed it in a number of ways. From a resale stand point I would be more concerned that it will have had 4 owners, which is a lot, and to some that will be an issue compared to a 1 or 2 owner car. Not everyone will want to do a lot of research to see if there was a problem with the car that made owners keep selling it.
If however the car is perfect in every way then just buy it at the best price you can negotiate rather than worry that it might be a little over-priced based on published prices of cars of unknown quality that you haven't seen in areas of the country that may have different market conditions. You're buying a used and rare car whose condition cannot be compared with another locally available carn not shopping for the best price on a new Camry that would be identical no matter where you bought it.
I sense you may have reservations about the car that are being focused now on price, and if that's the case you may just want to stop dwelling on this car to let the initial impulse settle a bit. There is no reason to believe this is the perfect used XKR, or that patience won't reward you with an even nicer one!
If however the car is perfect in every way then just buy it at the best price you can negotiate rather than worry that it might be a little over-priced based on published prices of cars of unknown quality that you haven't seen in areas of the country that may have different market conditions. You're buying a used and rare car whose condition cannot be compared with another locally available carn not shopping for the best price on a new Camry that would be identical no matter where you bought it.
I sense you may have reservations about the car that are being focused now on price, and if that's the case you may just want to stop dwelling on this car to let the initial impulse settle a bit. There is no reason to believe this is the perfect used XKR, or that patience won't reward you with an even nicer one!
#39
FYI: Four graphs of all used 2007-2009 model XKRs listed on Cars.com on 7/26/13 (over 50 data points). All cars are averaged together regardless of options, condition, etc.
Graph 1: All data points for all three years. x=mileage, y=price. You can start seeing trends, although the 2009s are all over the map.
Graph 2-4: Each year separated out with a trend line drawn in. You could consider starting at the mileage and moving up until you hit the trend line. that is the asking price for an average XKR listed on cars.com, retail (dealers) with that mileage. It's a place to start.
e.g. an average dealer retail for a 2008 XKR, with 22,000 miles, for sale right now in the US, is ~$50,000. Although I now see one data point is obviously skewing the data. I'm not going to run a t-test on it, let's just throw it out and get graph 5 (next post).
Graph 1: All data points for all three years. x=mileage, y=price. You can start seeing trends, although the 2009s are all over the map.
Graph 2-4: Each year separated out with a trend line drawn in. You could consider starting at the mileage and moving up until you hit the trend line. that is the asking price for an average XKR listed on cars.com, retail (dealers) with that mileage. It's a place to start.
e.g. an average dealer retail for a 2008 XKR, with 22,000 miles, for sale right now in the US, is ~$50,000. Although I now see one data point is obviously skewing the data. I'm not going to run a t-test on it, let's just throw it out and get graph 5 (next post).