I think top half might be:
Viper
GT-R
SLS
R8
911
F-Type

Btw, Randy's own street toy is a tuned 996 TT.

Bruce

 

4 more cars ran today. Here are my predictions vs. the times turned in, thus far:

Predictions______________________ Actual lap times

1) Mercedes SLS Black Edition_________1:35:03
2) Viper SRT_______________________1:36:43
3) GTR Track Edition_________________---------
4) Audi R8 V10 ____________________---------
5) Jaguar F-type____________________---------
6) Porsche 911 Carrera 4S____________1:39:19
7) Aston Martin V12_________________1:40:71
8) Porsche Cayman S________________1:41:26
9) Mercedes E63 Wagon______________1:42:39
10) BMW M6________________________--------
11) Bentley Continental GT___________1:46:60
12) Ford Focus ST__________________1:49:30

The F-type is indicated NEXT on the video run schedule. Crossing fingers for the new Jaguar.... this will be BIG, particularly if Jaguar could claim to better its primary competition, the 911.

Albert

 

I didn't realize initially that we were talking about laptimes.

My prediction

1) GTR Track Edition_________________---------
2) Mercedes SLS Black Edition_________1:35:03
3) Viper SRT_______________________1:36:43
4) Porsche 911 Carrera 4S____________1:39:19
6) Jaguar F-type____________________---------
7) Audi R8 V10 ____________________---------
8) Aston Martin V12_________________1:40:71
9) Porsche Cayman S________________1:41:26
10) BMW M6________________________--------
11) Mercedes E63 Wagon______________1:42:39
12) Bentley Continental GT___________1:46:60
13) Ford Focus ST__________________1:49:30

 

My prediction

1) Mercedes SLS Black Edition_________1:35:03
2) GTR Track Edition_________________---------
3) Viper SRT_______________________1:36:43
4) Audi R8 V10 ____________________---------
5) Porsche 911 Carrera 4S____________1:39:19
6) Aston Martin V12_________________1:40:71
7) Jaguar F-type____________________---------
8) Porsche Cayman S________________1:41:26
9) Mercedes E63 Wagon______________1:42:39
10) BMW M6________________________--------
11) Bentley Continental GT___________1:46:60
12) Ford Focus ST__________________1:49:30

 

The 911 lap times and driving impressions from the last two years of this challenge indicate that the Porsche engineers have successfully exorcised the undesirable handling traits associated with the 911's rear engine layout. I also know that to be the case from those I track with driving the newer models. I just wish they weren't so popular, and therefore undesirable if you want something a bit different...particularly on track days!

Bruce

 

Bruce

Testers always say that about any new 911. It is a religion. I've never been the type of person that accepts authority over my own judgment. I don't care if 1000 reviewers play homage to the 911, I will stick to my own experiences and judgments. Also, if you really read reviews very attentively, lots of them will passingly mention those rear-engine vices. That young guy in yesterday's post was honest about the biased reviews of his own 911. Like he said: "Terminal understeer near the limits, snapping suddenly into scary oversteer". Nature of the chassis/engine layout. You can invent all the magic electronic band-aids for decades but, can not fully overcome the layout issues. Not possible. It is basic physics.

There isn't a lot of cars I just flat dislike. Actually there are only 3, to be exact. They, in order of my dislike, the old air cooled WV Bus, the WV Bug and the rear-engined Porsches. A whole rear-engined family there. I always disliked their handling, their engine noises and the fact that the long and steep uphill summertime CA Sierra mountain roads were clogged by those WV bugs and buses, holding up traffic, at least until they fried their engines and were pushed off the sides. On those very same long, winding mountain roads that I drove nearly every weekend for decades, I NEVER lost an encounter to a 911, no matter what car I was driving. No 911 driver was reckless enough to push that car anywhere close to its limits. Not even the one who disdainfully passed me on the straights of a winding Sierra highway, doing around 100 MPH with a licence plate announcing that he was the, "FASTGUY", until I demolished him in short order with my built Mustang GT.

So, my dislike of the 911 will stay with me forever. What it did during that particular test drive at 120MPH was un-excusable from a Yugo. As far as I am concerned it is still a hammer with the heavy end in the back, wanting to swing wide in every corner. Like Bob Akin said about that car:

"You can not make a race horse out of a pig but, you can make an awful fast pig" - and Bob Akin was a pro Porsche racer who also said one day that one needed 3 legs to drive a 911 and live to tell about it.

Not much really changed today. You could see Randy wildly swinging the steering wheel in some of the corners, working hard to catch that rear weight, while loosing precious time. I am not at all impressed with its track times, a huge 3 seconds back from the brute and unsophisticated Viper and 4 seconds off the 300 lbs heavier SLS. I think that if and when Porsche finally dumps that ancient chassis and concentrates its effort on the far superior Cayman, gives it the right engines, we will have a Porsche that will be able to run with the big dogs. Until then, the 911 will always be a good distance behind the top Vettes and other cars with the engines in better places.

Albert

 

How dated are your experiences and judgements? The article and quoted handling traits to support your's was a 24 year old driving a 993 introduced 20 years ago. While you and he don't think they can fully overcome the layout issues because of physics, neither have claimed any personal experience with newer models. And it seems almost all manufacturers also continue to struggle to overcome issues with their more ideal layouts.

The one whose performance always confirms that they have done an exceptional job of their's is also the one that basic physics tells us it shouldn't...the GT-R. Reviewers continue to be astonished with how well it handles despite it's weight, and we see similar comments about how other manufacturers are defying physics these days to one extent or another with refinement and new technology. Those current experiences and judgements are rather persuasive, and objective testing supports it.

I'm starting to get that part

I've have never owned or intend to own a 911, but it seems to me the modern 911 is a very impressive sports car that is both daily drivable and competent on the track. I see that evidence coming from every direction, and it's overwhelming.

Bruce

 

Did they release any more times yesterday?

 

F-Type V8S 1:40.81

 

Final Results - 2013 Laguna Seca

1) Mercedes SLS Black Edition_________1:35:03
2) Viper SRT_______________________1:36:43
3) GTR Track Edition_________________1:36:63
4) Audi R8 V10 _____________________1:38:70
5) Porsche 911 Carrera 4S____________1:39:19
6) BMW M6________________________1:40:52
7) Aston Martin V12_________________1:40:71
8) Jaguar F-type V8S________________1:40:81
9) Porsche Cayman S_______________1:41:26
10) Mercedes E63 Wagon_____________1:42:39
11) Bentley Continental GT___________1:46:60
12) Ford Focus ST__________________1:49:30

 

Well it looks like the F-Type beat out the Cayman S quite handily, but appears quite a long ways from the 911 Carrera 4S. Although for a lot of these cars, I have to wonder. He does appear to be using "fully automatic" mode for quite a bit, so when he gets on the gas coming out of a corner, the car shifts as its kicks down. I doubt this has a big impact on the laptimes, though.

 

So, there it is. The good news for me that I nailed the first 4 predictions. My biggest miss; M6. I simply expected the heavier 4 door instead of the lighter couple. No problem.

The problem, if anyone sees it this way, is the showing of the F-type. While truly not bad for the first time, it could and should have been better. Looking at the specs of all cars, its factory rated 3670 lbs weight would have been smack in the middle with the other top runners. But, the problem is that it is actually 300 lbs more. Also, I am not impressed with the Jaguar factory suspension team. Both the XKR and the F-type has much more potential than what they are showing at the tracks. Testers are finding them difficult to handle with too much understeer or oversteer. With proper R&D those issues could be easily remedied. While Jaguar can be justified in thinking that the XKR is a GT car and its primary role is relaxed GT travel (at which it excels) but as the track experiences indicated they could have done much better.

Too bad that there are no aftermarket parts for Jaguars. I bet that given a good choice of springs, adjustable dampers, sway bars and tires, I could easily pick up 2 - 3 seconds per lap with either of the XKR or the F-type. Why wouldn't Jaguar do that?

I said that I was unhappy with the suspension team because the XKR and the F-type are not the only issues. Their late PR release is claiming that they are once again adjusting the ride (for more passenger comfort) for the 2014 XJL, after already making suspension corrections for 2013. Why had they not gotten that suspension right at the beginning for the big sedan? Why did they choose to install an intrusive sports car ride into their flagship limousine? No excuses for that suspension team.

So, back to the F-type; it has a lot of potential, waiting to be uncovered, if Jaguar is willing to do the work. It is a good looking car and a ton of fun, as it is. They are very close to their mark when it comes to lap-times, the 911. Buyers should be plenty satisfied with its performance, as it is. I know, I could have loads of fun in that V8 S. Just wish it would be lighter and just wish I could play with the suspension settings. It could and should be a killer track/street car. Maybe they'll get it right with the Coupe?

Albert

 

Bruce

My personal and terrible 911 experience is indeed very dated. According to my quickly vanishing memories it dates back to the mid-80s.

I have repeatedly complimented Porsche for doing an exceptional job at TAMING the rear-engined beast. But, physics are still physics. The best engineers in the world can not change the laws of gravitation. I understand and respect their achievements. When I first showed up at the autocross circuits with my Mustang GT, I was waved off by the owners of the winning big bore cars, as well as the 911s and, yes, even a very well running XKE. They all said that a front-heavy pig, like the Mustang GT, could never be made to handle. Well, next year I won the yearly Championship against the very same cars.

But, the 911 is different from the Mustang. The Mustang was not out to kill me with its front weight bias. The 911 was and it could have succeeded had an other car was coming when it switched lanes on me at 120 MPH. While the situation and the conditions were unique, still, that tendency was something I or anyone else could not overcome by simple suspension changes. Porsche this year had extended the wheelbase of the Carrera and thus moved the engine towards mid-engine position. Why are they doing that? I think they are trying to sneak it past the Porsche rear-engine faithful who would absolutely resent making any changes to the car. I wish Porsche well and hope that they will continue "sneaking" that big mass of weight towards the mid-position, where it should have been in the first place. Like I said, they already have the car that they really want to make out of the 911 and, it is the Cayman. Now, how do you sell it to the same fan group that threatened the Porsche factory with extinction when they tried to pull the plug on the 911 decades ago?

As to me,... once bitten, twice shy... I do not go back and cuddle a snake that had bitten me before, particularly not one under the very same skin, no matter how much time elapsed. Too many other, for me better, choices are out there.

For the newer 911 owners; enjoy your car, it will give you tons of pleasure when driven within its safety zones. Those zones are now wide enough where 99 percent of all owners and drivers will never cross its boundaries.

Albert

Edit: Just watched the new GT-3 video posted by Matt. Must say, incredibly impressive car BUT, listen to what I warned about; how Chris Harris criticizes the outgoing model that "had front axle problems" resulting in too much under and oversteer, how this car is more agile, how the steering is now great, as opposed to yesterday's models, etc. Like I said, these testers can not be trusted to tell the vices of the present models, only the outgoing ones. While, according to Chris, the new GT-3 takes motoring to new levels, it is still behind the discontinued ZR1 in lap times when it comes to the Neurburgring. 7:19 for the ZR-1 vs. 7:25 claimed for the GT-3. I am confident that the new ZR-1 will widen the gap. I personally would feel a lot safer driving the front engined ZR-1 in any street environment, vs. any rear engined cars.

 

I just watched the Youtube vid of Randy taking the F-Type around the track. It definitely sounded like he didn't have many positive things to say about the F-Type. Then again, when he did the XKR-S last year (was it last year?), he didn't have many good things to say about the handling either.

If I didn't know he was driving an F-Type, the kinds of things he is saying make it sound like he is driving a musclecar. Heavy, powerful, and fun in a tire-smoking "sawing-at-the-wheel" kind of way. But not a nimble, agile car.

 

I'm sorry but too me good ole Randy took the F for a cruise, not a run. It didn't sound like he was really on the throttle at points he could have been and he even took his hand off the wheel to make that sawing motion.

Too much commentary and not enough driving in my perspective.

 

You could say that for almost all the cars he drove, though. For some of them, I wasn't sure if he was driving the timed lap or if he was just doing a slow warmup lap so he could talk about the car.

I doubt the lap they show in the video is the lap they use for the timing. Or is it?

 

I loved my 997 Carrera S...but I think Porsche is really on top of their game right now. The new GT3 and Turbo look amazing. Watching a video of Chris Harris wind out the GT3 some twisties was a sight to behold.


I nailed the placement of the F-type, but missed the GTR by 1 spot (.2 sec) and the M6 by several. Big surprise there for me.

I am very confused by the M6. The dang XKR-S beat it around VIR by over 2 seconds. Maybe that was against the convertible? I don't remember...Anyway, somehow it put up a great time here, even besting the F-Type...that is mind boggling to me right now.

I still think one of the issues with Jaguar is the darn tires it chooses to put on these cars. Last year the XKR-S was sliding everywhere and the F-Type also looked quite slippery out there. Several different magazine reviews noted the tires get greasy after just one hot lap. How can you achieve your best lap when the first one is the limit of your tires? Get rid of the PZeros for heaven's sake!

 

I read somewhere that they are actually doing several laps with each car and posting only the best time. The commentary is surely not the fast lap, and is just used for informational purposes, like his observations of the car while he is pushing it a bit on the track.

 

That's what I thought. Thanks.

 

Whatever, C&D definitely needs to fly me out to Laguna so I can have a crack at it!!!!

:P