2010 XKR competes on the track in C&D's Lightning Lap competition
#61
08-22-2013, 02:54 PM
Veteran Member
I must apologize for taking this Car and Driver thread off topic to discuss the Motor Trend Best Driver's Car competition, and any confusion it may have caused.
Past experiences can affect you, and had one October 2002 with a 911 that affected me for years...maybe still does. I was at Road America doing a 3 day BMW HPDE. Friday was open lapping for only Instructors and Advanced drivers. It rained all day, fallen leaves in sections of the track, and generally very slick conditions. It was my first day ever on the track so I was taking it easy as I was focused on learning the track and the "Wet Line" though corners where grip in the rain would be better.
I was following a 911 race car, and being very careful to stay back so as not to make him feel he had to pickup the pace, and he looked cautious as well. I was in the Supra with stock suspension and tires which would give better grip. We rounded Canada Corner, he looked to have straightened out, and then suddenly spun 180* and went off the track, across a grass area, and into the Armco barrier. Parts flying everywhere as the car continued to spin on wet grass before hitting the wall a second time, with complete nose flying 15 feet into the air. I'm still in disbelief how that happened, and the level of damage. I still see it in slow motion when thinking about it.
A couple of years later I was back at Mosport doing a Porsche HPDE and having a good session dicing it up with the chief instructor in his stunning 1972 911 race car. He was holding me up slightly, but rather than give the "pass by" signal he pushed it and went off track...you guessed it, engine first.
I've had quite a few cars go off in front of me, including other 911's, but they've made me nervous ever since Road America. A few years ago I was offered a drivers seat for a race team campaigning a pair of 911's in high profile race series. I had done a lapping day the year previous when the team was sorting out the car at Mosport. I discussed the car with one of the co-owners that I've known for years, who was a bit disappointed with his lap times. I was lapping a bit quicker, but didn't add to his disappointment by mentioning that.
But when he asked if I'd drive for him I declined. I've questioned that decision ever since, and the excuses I told myself at the time, but really wonder if a big part of it was lack of confidence in their handling. I've got over that fear now (I hope!), with all the improvements, but those memories do die hard.
Bruce
Past experiences can affect you, and had one October 2002 with a 911 that affected me for years...maybe still does. I was at Road America doing a 3 day BMW HPDE. Friday was open lapping for only Instructors and Advanced drivers. It rained all day, fallen leaves in sections of the track, and generally very slick conditions. It was my first day ever on the track so I was taking it easy as I was focused on learning the track and the "Wet Line" though corners where grip in the rain would be better.
I was following a 911 race car, and being very careful to stay back so as not to make him feel he had to pickup the pace, and he looked cautious as well. I was in the Supra with stock suspension and tires which would give better grip. We rounded Canada Corner, he looked to have straightened out, and then suddenly spun 180* and went off the track, across a grass area, and into the Armco barrier. Parts flying everywhere as the car continued to spin on wet grass before hitting the wall a second time, with complete nose flying 15 feet into the air. I'm still in disbelief how that happened, and the level of damage. I still see it in slow motion when thinking about it.
A couple of years later I was back at Mosport doing a Porsche HPDE and having a good session dicing it up with the chief instructor in his stunning 1972 911 race car. He was holding me up slightly, but rather than give the "pass by" signal he pushed it and went off track...you guessed it, engine first.
I've had quite a few cars go off in front of me, including other 911's, but they've made me nervous ever since Road America. A few years ago I was offered a drivers seat for a race team campaigning a pair of 911's in high profile race series. I had done a lapping day the year previous when the team was sorting out the car at Mosport. I discussed the car with one of the co-owners that I've known for years, who was a bit disappointed with his lap times. I was lapping a bit quicker, but didn't add to his disappointment by mentioning that.
But when he asked if I'd drive for him I declined. I've questioned that decision ever since, and the excuses I told myself at the time, but really wonder if a big part of it was lack of confidence in their handling. I've got over that fear now (I hope!), with all the improvements, but those memories do die hard.
Bruce
Relating to rain and 911s. An other trip in Germany and I rented an Opel Senator with a good engine that topped out at 150MPH. I was like a kid in a candy store, always as conditions allowed, keeping the car at top speeds.
One day we had one of those extreme downpour while driving the Autobahn near Munich. You basically could barely see the front of the car from the heavy cloudburst. I pulled over into the slow lane, fearing imminent hydroplaning. Next to me in the fast lane was a car that was going barely faster than I was. From behind a Porsched 911 Turbo came on super aggressively, practically ramming the rear of the car and wildly flashing his lights to shove him out of the way. I immediately pulled out behind the Porsche and matched him accelerating away while staying on his bumper and flashing my own lights for him to get out of the way. It was a "you get what you give" moment for me.
My wife was terrified. She screamed that we were going to get killed. I calmly told her that the affair would be over much before that, as the Porsche with its bigger tires and leading the way would spin and crash way before I would.
Well, it ended by the Porsche giving up at speeds well over 100 MPH, pulling over and letting me go. Wise decision under the circumstances. I went by him and exited at the next exit to wait out the cloudburts.
My wife, long accustomed to me driving insanely fast on streets, never quite got over doing 100+ MPH in drenching rain, one foot off the back bumper of that Porsche. With lights flashing to pass.... Life's finer moments...
Albert
#62
08-22-2013, 03:02 PM
Senior Member
For my lack of historical interest in the 911 I frankly get lost in all the different Porsche model numbers and designations. I know that some of those "street" Porsches run special huge tires that look like they belong on the back of a regular tractor (size-wise). So, I've just googled the GT-2 RS. Very impressive, although I'm not sure that a comparison the ZR1 applies. The GT-2 seems to be a race track model with built in roll bars, carbon racing seats and who-knows-what else? That reminds me to a new Ferrari that was in the news yesterday, with lots of HP and 2800 lbs weight. Also a car with the race track in mind. The ZR1 is clearly a street car with its heavy street seats and street ratio transmission and good street ride.
Albert
Albert
My point is just that the 911 can be a very capable machine and are drastically different than the older models they have replaced. Congrats to MT's winner of best driver's car, 2013.
#65
08-22-2013, 05:52 PM
This video gives the most details of each car in both road and track testing.
Other clips seem to mostly praise the performance of each vehicle, but this long video covers the stuff I wanted to know. It's brutally honest I think, and sometimes brutally negative about some of the cars, we see that Randy wasn't necessarily sold on the 911 being the top pick over the R8, and they didn't hold much back on the F-Type either.
My interest in performance cars, and using them on both the track and my local country roads, parallels exactly what this test was all about. It would be nice to have the fastest car on the planet, but what I really want is one that handles well on the track approaching its limits (regardless of how high those limits are), and that is also a comfortable cruiser for the vast majority of its usage. One without the other is of no interest to me. I'd already ruled out the GT-R based on road manners, recently the Viper and F-Type V8S for track and road manners, and some others because they're either too costly or too common.
It's hard to find the perfect car to cover all bases, but the M.T. testing and evaluations only strengthen my appreciation for the XKR. It's truly a car I can drive close to, and sometimes right on, the limits and feel completely in control, and that's a very rare and beautiful thing. I think we'll tests in the future that confirm the F-Type V6S does exactly the same thing, but at a higher performance level than the XKR. And if they add a trunk or backseat I could get really excited about it!!!
Here's Paul Gentilozzi discussing the differences between the XKR street car and XKR-GT race car...
Video: Jaguar XKR vs XKR GT - Paul Gentilozzi on the Street Car vs. the Race Car – RoadandTrack.com - Road & Track
Bruce
Other clips seem to mostly praise the performance of each vehicle, but this long video covers the stuff I wanted to know. It's brutally honest I think, and sometimes brutally negative about some of the cars, we see that Randy wasn't necessarily sold on the 911 being the top pick over the R8, and they didn't hold much back on the F-Type either.
My interest in performance cars, and using them on both the track and my local country roads, parallels exactly what this test was all about. It would be nice to have the fastest car on the planet, but what I really want is one that handles well on the track approaching its limits (regardless of how high those limits are), and that is also a comfortable cruiser for the vast majority of its usage. One without the other is of no interest to me. I'd already ruled out the GT-R based on road manners, recently the Viper and F-Type V8S for track and road manners, and some others because they're either too costly or too common.
It's hard to find the perfect car to cover all bases, but the M.T. testing and evaluations only strengthen my appreciation for the XKR. It's truly a car I can drive close to, and sometimes right on, the limits and feel completely in control, and that's a very rare and beautiful thing. I think we'll tests in the future that confirm the F-Type V6S does exactly the same thing, but at a higher performance level than the XKR. And if they add a trunk or backseat I could get really excited about it!!!
Here's Paul Gentilozzi discussing the differences between the XKR street car and XKR-GT race car...
Video: Jaguar XKR vs XKR GT - Paul Gentilozzi on the Street Car vs. the Race Car – RoadandTrack.com - Road & Track
Bruce
#67
08-22-2013, 10:50 PM
Veteran Member
The F-type finally wins one against Porsche
The F-type finally wins one against Porsche, at least in the final opinions of the testers from Road and Track.
2014 Jaguar F-Type Versus 2013 Porsche Boxster - Porsche Boxster Versus Jaguar F-Type at Lime Rock in Connecticut - Road & Track
Of course, the "win" is the subjective conclusion at the end of the article with no specific reasons given for the choice.
The F-type had superior HP but, was a staggering 684 lbs heavier. With nearly identical power-to-weight ratios the much lighter Boxter predictably ran away with the track portions of the test. In accelerations the two cars were nearly identical up to 120 MPH. Beyond that to 150 MPH the Boxter pulled a nearly 2 second lead which may come as a surprise because above 120 MPH pure horsepower advantage normally rules. I suspect, however, that the substantially higher drag coefficient numbers and the 5" extra width of the F-type may have caused the extra drag to slow the F-type's the acceleration.
Altogether, sound like good review for Jaguar. Really just too bad for the weight. Many other things are easy to change but, the weight is not.
Albert
2014 Jaguar F-Type Versus 2013 Porsche Boxster - Porsche Boxster Versus Jaguar F-Type at Lime Rock in Connecticut - Road & Track
Of course, the "win" is the subjective conclusion at the end of the article with no specific reasons given for the choice.
The F-type had superior HP but, was a staggering 684 lbs heavier. With nearly identical power-to-weight ratios the much lighter Boxter predictably ran away with the track portions of the test. In accelerations the two cars were nearly identical up to 120 MPH. Beyond that to 150 MPH the Boxter pulled a nearly 2 second lead which may come as a surprise because above 120 MPH pure horsepower advantage normally rules. I suspect, however, that the substantially higher drag coefficient numbers and the 5" extra width of the F-type may have caused the extra drag to slow the F-type's the acceleration.
Altogether, sound like good review for Jaguar. Really just too bad for the weight. Many other things are easy to change but, the weight is not.
Albert
#68
08-23-2013, 07:12 AM
Senior Member
Albert, I posted a link to that article a few weeks ago in one of the other f-type threads. I don't know if you went to page two of the article where they rank the cars and add up the points, but the f-type lost. 43 points to the Porsche 45 points.
Last edited by Matt in Houston; 08-23-2013 at 07:14 AM.
#69
08-23-2013, 09:53 AM
Veteran Member
I do remember that post but I thought this article was brand new. I came across it yesterday in a hard copy of the August 2013 edition of Road and Track magazine. Thus, it should be unlikely to be the same as posted several weeks back. Worth a check, however. I'll do that later when I get to my laptop. Am on my phone now.
Editing here: Upon checking, Matt, you are right once again. What was definitely in the August hard copy of R&T is dated June 2013 on this website copy. That surprises me because I would have figured that the hard copy would carry the newest articles before they would post it on their website for free public consumption.
But, still, here is the little good news and subjective win that I was referring to for the F-type from this article:
"In the end, we found ourselves searching for that one special feature that would tip the scales—and found it, sitting in the bright sun, in pit lane. The Jag, in all its magisterial whiteness. "
Albert
Last edited by axr6; 08-23-2013 at 10:47 AM.
#70
08-23-2013, 10:11 AM
Senior Member
Matt
I do remember that post but I thought this article was brand new. I came across it yesterday in a hard copy of the August 2013 edition of Road and Track magazine. Thus, it should be unlikely to be the same as posted several weeks back. Worth a check, however. I'll do that later when I get to my laptop. Am on my phone now.
Albert
I do remember that post but I thought this article was brand new. I came across it yesterday in a hard copy of the August 2013 edition of Road and Track magazine. Thus, it should be unlikely to be the same as posted several weeks back. Worth a check, however. I'll do that later when I get to my laptop. Am on my phone now.
Albert
That article was written June 20th, 2013.
Here is the link when we talked about it on the other thread:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...t-97768/page6/
I was just pointing out that the F-Type did not win. Almost, but in the end it was the one left in the pit while the Boxster was out on the track...
Points total to the Boxster S was 45 pts to the F-Type V6S 43 pts.
I did enjoy that article.
#71
08-23-2013, 10:46 AM
Veteran Member
Albert
#72
08-23-2013, 02:23 PM
Senior Member
Yep, I read that too in the article and I was confused for a second thinking that maybe they would put the Jag ahead...but then as you read into the second page it seems like they really preferred the Boxster.
Here is how the article ended:
The Decision
The Porsche's superiority was conclusive and absolute. It could go deeper into the turns, the brake pedal alive under your foot and telling you exactly what was going on. The Jag could go almost as deep, but without the feel for the limit.
Drivers awarded their favorite car in each category with a maximum of five available points. Scores were then averaged and added to determine our winner.
I wont rehash what the scores were. Either way, I think this was a great showing for Jaguar, especially going up against a car that has been around as long and is as proven as the Boxster.
#73
08-23-2013, 02:51 PM
Veteran Member
Yep, I read that too in the article and I was confused for a second thinking that maybe they would put the Jag ahead...but then as you read into the second page it seems like they really preferred the Boxster....
...Either way, I think this was a great showing for Jaguar, especially going up against a car that has been around as long and is as proven as the Boxster.
...Either way, I think this was a great showing for Jaguar, especially going up against a car that has been around as long and is as proven as the Boxster.
Yes, it was generally a good showing for the F-type. But, most of the Boxter's advantage comes down to the weight issue, something that would be very difficult, or impossible, to remedy for the F-type. The sales figures will provide the ultimate determination if the car could be called a success or not.
Albert
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#74
08-23-2013, 07:09 PM
Veteran Member
2014 Stingray first dyno test.
I know that this is a Jaguar forum but, also know that at least some people here will be interested seeing and comparing the first dyno numbers off the new Stingray. Looks about right to justify the factory claims of 460 crank HP.
2014 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Z51 Dyno Test on Edmunds.com
The peak RWHP seems almost identical to the XKR in the first test but torque is actually higher for the Stingray. Further down on this post is a Dynojet run with about 3 percent higher numbers for the XKR. (thanks Bruce)
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...-review-75060/
Albert
2014 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Z51 Dyno Test on Edmunds.com
The peak RWHP seems almost identical to the XKR in the first test but torque is actually higher for the Stingray. Further down on this post is a Dynojet run with about 3 percent higher numbers for the XKR. (thanks Bruce)
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...-review-75060/
Albert
Last edited by axr6; 08-23-2013 at 09:09 PM.
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