Correct Tyre Design and Development Selection
#1
Correct Tyre Design and Development Selection
Well, I’ve been reading through countless posts through out these forums on appropriate tyres for use on our 2007 XKR and concluded that opinions and recommendations are like belly buttons (everyone has one)!
When I picked up my new XKR Portfolio from the dealer, they had to fit new tyres and as they do, fitted the cheapest nastiest tyres they could find to pass the roadworthy. (Accelera on the front and Kumoh on the rear). the result being that they have successfully transformed a highly sophisticated high performance grand tourer into a very unstable and noisy truck!
To this end I’m looking at replacing these tyres with Jaguar’s OE, being the Dunlop Sport Maxx. Now given that Jaguar spent a significant amount of money and research time, whilst working closely with one specific tyre manufacturer to effectively develop a tyre that is perfectly tuned to match the vehicles performance characteristics, I’m not convinced that other tyres would achieve the same optimal result.
Not only the tread pattern but also the construction and composition of materials of the tyre are finely tuned to optimise the driving dynamics of these high performance vehicles and because the tyres interact directly with the safety systems within the vehicle ABS, DSC, etc., Jaguar undertake exhaustive testing to ensure a perfect match.
Alternate tyres may be fine for lesser vehicles such as our Honda Civic and BMW 325i, but I’m not sure how other tyre manufacturers, that have developed their tyres independently to suit a range of vehicles, are not in some way compromised to achieve a tyre construction that will provide a good alround general performance but not bring out the very best and optimised characteristics of a finely tuned performance vehicle such as the XKR.
So, I’m not really asking for a “belly button” opinion on the most appropriate and best tyre for our rides, but I just thought I’d put this out there for general thoughts and perspective of matched tyre design for high performance cars such as our Jaguars, Aston’s, Ferrari’s, etc. which are dependent upon all components having been effectively engineered to achieve the best and most optimal result.
When I picked up my new XKR Portfolio from the dealer, they had to fit new tyres and as they do, fitted the cheapest nastiest tyres they could find to pass the roadworthy. (Accelera on the front and Kumoh on the rear). the result being that they have successfully transformed a highly sophisticated high performance grand tourer into a very unstable and noisy truck!
To this end I’m looking at replacing these tyres with Jaguar’s OE, being the Dunlop Sport Maxx. Now given that Jaguar spent a significant amount of money and research time, whilst working closely with one specific tyre manufacturer to effectively develop a tyre that is perfectly tuned to match the vehicles performance characteristics, I’m not convinced that other tyres would achieve the same optimal result.
Not only the tread pattern but also the construction and composition of materials of the tyre are finely tuned to optimise the driving dynamics of these high performance vehicles and because the tyres interact directly with the safety systems within the vehicle ABS, DSC, etc., Jaguar undertake exhaustive testing to ensure a perfect match.
Alternate tyres may be fine for lesser vehicles such as our Honda Civic and BMW 325i, but I’m not sure how other tyre manufacturers, that have developed their tyres independently to suit a range of vehicles, are not in some way compromised to achieve a tyre construction that will provide a good alround general performance but not bring out the very best and optimised characteristics of a finely tuned performance vehicle such as the XKR.
So, I’m not really asking for a “belly button” opinion on the most appropriate and best tyre for our rides, but I just thought I’d put this out there for general thoughts and perspective of matched tyre design for high performance cars such as our Jaguars, Aston’s, Ferrari’s, etc. which are dependent upon all components having been effectively engineered to achieve the best and most optimal result.
Last edited by XJCCAT; 02-20-2018 at 04:49 PM.
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#7
I'll stand up and testify. Love mine for everyday driving and touring, but I'm not a 'track guy' and really didn't need or want summer-only performance tires. Driving style is certainly a consideration when making a tire selection that compliments the vehicle and the vehicle occupants.
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#8
Ummm, yes. I know that Porsche and other top vehicle manufacturers spend quite a bit developing specific tyres to suit the dynamics and characterstics of their vehicles. And with Tata injecting much needed capital into the brand, it would be a small investment to work with a preferred tyre supplier that would develop a tyre that would complete the package. So why would they not?
#9
Ahhh, well maybe not me .... scrub that thought...
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Cee Jay (02-20-2018)
#10
I have a set of 19" Pzero nero's and wheels off a '14 XF and they handle well enough for my use / duty which I think is pretty harsh and defines 'All Weather'.
I think you are having delusions of grandeur and snobbishness if you feel that there is one tire that will suffice for your car. You haven't given your intended use / duty nor lifespan expectations but want to know what other did without asking why.
There's also an odd irony that the cheapest junk tires I could find (Fulda's) hooked the best on my '93 Mustang.
At the end of the day this'll be just another 'What flavor tire should I buy'? thread.
BTW, What are the F types running now? Seems they would be the definition of perfection but I bet a ton of F type owners complain about the stock tires. Just saying.
I think you are having delusions of grandeur and snobbishness if you feel that there is one tire that will suffice for your car. You haven't given your intended use / duty nor lifespan expectations but want to know what other did without asking why.
There's also an odd irony that the cheapest junk tires I could find (Fulda's) hooked the best on my '93 Mustang.
At the end of the day this'll be just another 'What flavor tire should I buy'? thread.
BTW, What are the F types running now? Seems they would be the definition of perfection but I bet a ton of F type owners complain about the stock tires. Just saying.
#11
Really? Well that’s very targeted and constructive.... not!
So so much for a mature and sound technical discussion.
For what it’s worth I will be fitting a set of Continental CSC 5P, which have from experience performed brilliantly on previous BMWs and Jags that I’ve owned (straying away from what the XKR, was originally designed to have being the Dunlop’s, of which the original directional tyre design has now really been well and truely surpassed, with more modern tyres. But it would be interesting to know or be able to quantify what parameters that formed part of the original integrated design would be affected and by how much, some better and some worse at a guess.
So so much for a mature and sound technical discussion.
For what it’s worth I will be fitting a set of Continental CSC 5P, which have from experience performed brilliantly on previous BMWs and Jags that I’ve owned (straying away from what the XKR, was originally designed to have being the Dunlop’s, of which the original directional tyre design has now really been well and truely surpassed, with more modern tyres. But it would be interesting to know or be able to quantify what parameters that formed part of the original integrated design would be affected and by how much, some better and some worse at a guess.
Last edited by XJCCAT; 02-20-2018 at 07:40 PM.
#13
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#14
Do what makes you happy...
I have had three different sets of tires on my XK in my two and a half years of ownership. Each had their own characteristics despite being in the same class of tire.
It really is down to prioritizing what you want, then trying to figure out which tire does best at the aspect that is important to you.
Tires are like shoes, I have a pair for trails, a pair for rock climbing, a pair for running, etc... That is because there isn't a shoe that matches the performance in all of these things compared to what a shoe specifically designed for these things are.
Dunlap has a name of English origins and I suspect it is a major part of it being OEM on the Jaguar.
Hankook Ventus V12 Evo:
Good: Sporty feel, lots of feed back to the steering wheel. Responsive turn in.
Bad: Car loved to tramline, loud, booms on bumps
Continental DW(Not the DWS mind you)
Good: Comfortable ride, quiet over bumps, quiet on the road
Bad: Floaty feel, little feed back to the steering wheel, unresponsive turn in
So you see depending on what you want different tires have their advantages.
I find noticeable reduced grip about a year and a half to two years from when I install tires.
Comparing "The new tire I put on is soo much better than the old tire I took off", this is some what madness.
I have had three different sets of tires on my XK in my two and a half years of ownership. Each had their own characteristics despite being in the same class of tire.
It really is down to prioritizing what you want, then trying to figure out which tire does best at the aspect that is important to you.
Tires are like shoes, I have a pair for trails, a pair for rock climbing, a pair for running, etc... That is because there isn't a shoe that matches the performance in all of these things compared to what a shoe specifically designed for these things are.
Dunlap has a name of English origins and I suspect it is a major part of it being OEM on the Jaguar.
Hankook Ventus V12 Evo:
Good: Sporty feel, lots of feed back to the steering wheel. Responsive turn in.
Bad: Car loved to tramline, loud, booms on bumps
Continental DW(Not the DWS mind you)
Good: Comfortable ride, quiet over bumps, quiet on the road
Bad: Floaty feel, little feed back to the steering wheel, unresponsive turn in
So you see depending on what you want different tires have their advantages.
I find noticeable reduced grip about a year and a half to two years from when I install tires.
Comparing "The new tire I put on is soo much better than the old tire I took off", this is some what madness.
#15
First off XJCCAT, it is a touchy topic at best, but you already suspect the tires givin you are wrong. Nobody recommends different versions of tire on any car.
And I have to side partly with Rancho, and let others prove us wrong.
As a sub-exotic car, I doubt Jaguar had any say in the actual design of a Dunlop tire. Yes, we do see this in full-on exotics, but not at Jags price point. What would be more likely is Jaguar issuing a 'Request For Proposal' to all tire manufacturers. They would specify what they needed the tire to do (Y rated, 30,000 miles, capable of sustaining 'X' cornering G's on the XK chassis... and so forth).
From there they just sit back and let the tire companies battle it out. Each offers up what they have that meet the requirements, and Jag, like any company will choose the lowest bid. Welcome to the Dunlop....
Now, don't get me wrong, as the Dunlop could still be a good tire, and it did qualify against the specifications laid down by Jaguar, but they were by no means the 'Best' tire out there.
Business is Business... And Jag has always been known to pench a penny wherever it can.
#16
Actually, there are brand-specific OE (original equipment) versions of some tires. I recall reading an article which showed some high-performance tire, and then the "Porsche spec" version of it, which had an otherwise identical tread but with twice as many tiny grooves on the very edges to aid in water displacement or something. Likewise, I've seen some tires specifically marked as being for Jaguar ("J") or Mercedes-Benz ("MO").
No idea how much such tires differ from the normal tire, though.
No idea how much such tires differ from the normal tire, though.
#17
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So, I’m not really asking for a “belly button” opinion on the most appropriate and best tyre for our rides, but I just thought I’d put this out there for general thoughts and perspective of matched tyre design for high performance cars such as our Jaguars, Aston’s, Ferrari’s, etc. which are dependent upon all components having been effectively engineered to achieve the best and most optimal result.
So, I’m not really asking for a “belly button” opinion on the most appropriate and best tyre for our rides, but I just thought I’d put this out there for general thoughts and perspective of matched tyre design for high performance cars such as our Jaguars, Aston’s, Ferrari’s, etc. which are dependent upon all components having been effectively engineered to achieve the best and most optimal result.
"Optimal result"? First let's identify what optimal result Jaguar was trying to achieve when tire decisions were being made. In high performance cars manufacturers usually want to optimize steering response, dry traction, and cornering grip.
Any tire that's truly optimal in certain aspects of road behavior or ownership experience will surely be less than optimal in others.
What's optimal for me, or what Jaguar thinks of as optimal, might represent compromises that are unacceptable to you.
For just one example, I live in an area with lots of rainfall so wet traction would be a very important safety consideration for me.... but may not have been a prime consideration for Jaguar when decisions were being made.
Heh heh, this conversation has been going on for more than 40 years, ever since Jaguar ballyhooed about about having collaborated with Dunlop on the "designed-just-for-the-XJ6" SP series. These were "ideally matched" to the dynamics of the car.
We have choices. No need to be a slave to factory spec if something else out there will suit our purposes as well or better than what the factory used 5-10-15-40 years ago.
Cheers
DD
#18
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Cee Jay (02-21-2018),
Ranchero50 (03-03-2018)
#19
#20
Ah yes.
Well, decided to do some further research into this myself and the answer to my question is that some of the tyre manufacturers do indeed produce specific versions of tyres that have been specifically designed to compliment the characteristics and required performance and ride qualities of specific makes. In fact a friend of mine (ex formula 2 race driver) was also engaged to test tyres being developed for various model vehicles. Some tyres would have very slight changes to part of the trend pattern, but typically they differed in the tyre compound mixtures, and side wall construction, etc. Typically the Pirelli P Zeros have been produced for a large range of vehicles, and a designated accordingly with a letter. J being for Jaguars, AO for Audi’s, F for Ferrari, etc..
So if you are choosing a set of P-Zeros for your Jaguar, they should be designated J.
Having said and researched that, the P-Zeros (recommended tyre fitment for the XK) are a somewhat old design now and the latest PZ4s have yet to be released here. So, I’ve decided to fit the latest Michelin PS4’s, which have had good reviews.
Ah well, time will tell!