Corvette To Jaguar
#61
08-11-2012, 12:14 PM
Senior Member
Faux leather? Heresy? Hmmm... if I remember correctly for the longest time the standard interior in many high priced Mercedes and Porsche models were... gasp... cheap faux leather (vinyl). And, if we are talking about trashy interiors, lets not forget the long decades of Porsche 911 interiors. I swear the Russian Lada cars had richer looking interiors than the 911.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of snobbism when it comes to judging anything that America makes when it comes to cars. Those snob "auto experts" always praised the (then) present models of the German Porsche as being the best thing since sliced bread while pointing out that the 911 model that they replaced had horrible interiors and horrible handling traits. Germans could do nor wrong with their vinyls while the Americans are being put down for a single feature even though those ZO6s and ZR1 will run circles around those German cars in just about any and every performance category.
I remember one comparison test years ago between the Vette and a 911. The Vette blew the 911 completely off, beating it by as much as 2.5 seconds per lap on the track. That is HUGE! So, in the conclusion of the article the author still picked the 911 for the #1 spot, saying that it had a "soul" that the Vette did not have. Can you believe that???
As to the un-supportive seats in the Vette? I do not know for certain why they put them in there but, I can guess. Most American owners of high performance cars will never seriously use the abilities of the car. They will never seriously throw the car into corners where they would need the highly bolstered seats. Thus, the priority of GM may have been to make the getting in and out easier for most folks without having to contort themselves around those bolsters.
Let me suggest something; if you are really serious about high performance driving, you should not balk at some customization of your vehicle. I got 14 lbs, super supportive carbon racing seats in my 500 HP, 2600 lbs twin turbo RX-7. That is the ultimate driver's seat for serious cornering work and performance. Anyone can replace the seat in the vette for a couple of thosand dollars and be king of the hill all around. Of course, you will have to be somewhat of a contortionist getting in and out but, hey, if that is your priority...?
Albert
Unfortunately, there is a lot of snobbism when it comes to judging anything that America makes when it comes to cars. Those snob "auto experts" always praised the (then) present models of the German Porsche as being the best thing since sliced bread while pointing out that the 911 model that they replaced had horrible interiors and horrible handling traits. Germans could do nor wrong with their vinyls while the Americans are being put down for a single feature even though those ZO6s and ZR1 will run circles around those German cars in just about any and every performance category.
I remember one comparison test years ago between the Vette and a 911. The Vette blew the 911 completely off, beating it by as much as 2.5 seconds per lap on the track. That is HUGE! So, in the conclusion of the article the author still picked the 911 for the #1 spot, saying that it had a "soul" that the Vette did not have. Can you believe that???
As to the un-supportive seats in the Vette? I do not know for certain why they put them in there but, I can guess. Most American owners of high performance cars will never seriously use the abilities of the car. They will never seriously throw the car into corners where they would need the highly bolstered seats. Thus, the priority of GM may have been to make the getting in and out easier for most folks without having to contort themselves around those bolsters.
Let me suggest something; if you are really serious about high performance driving, you should not balk at some customization of your vehicle. I got 14 lbs, super supportive carbon racing seats in my 500 HP, 2600 lbs twin turbo RX-7. That is the ultimate driver's seat for serious cornering work and performance. Anyone can replace the seat in the vette for a couple of thosand dollars and be king of the hill all around. Of course, you will have to be somewhat of a contortionist getting in and out but, hey, if that is your priority...?
Albert
A car this quick that beats Ferraris etc, SHOULD have the equipment inside to keep you safe...ie supportive seats (I'm not talking about fancy carbon seats, just safe ones), or at least an option when buying from new. I can throw mine around legally on UK roads at 70 MPH, and I'm sliding around in the car. It's just not for track purposes.
An Audi RS5 has very good supportive seats for example that you can easily get in and out of....they sell these in the US too.
I think they will 1000% address this with the C7 and start catching up.
I love US cars don't get me wrong
#62
08-11-2012, 02:29 PM
Veteran Member
I think you've completely overlooked the point? I own a Corvette Z06 over a European car purely for it's performance. I think it out classes Porsche etc, thats why I own one in Europe.
A car this quick that beats Ferraris etc, SHOULD have the equipment inside to keep you safe...ie supportive seats (I'm not talking about fancy carbon seats, just safe ones), or at least an option when buying from new. I can throw mine around legally on UK roads at 70 MPH, and I'm sliding around in the car. It's just not for track purposes.
An Audi RS5 has very good supportive seats for example that you can easily get in and out of....they sell these in the US too.
I think they will 1000% address this with the C7 and start catching up.
I love US cars don't get me wrong
A car this quick that beats Ferraris etc, SHOULD have the equipment inside to keep you safe...ie supportive seats (I'm not talking about fancy carbon seats, just safe ones), or at least an option when buying from new. I can throw mine around legally on UK roads at 70 MPH, and I'm sliding around in the car. It's just not for track purposes.
An Audi RS5 has very good supportive seats for example that you can easily get in and out of....they sell these in the US too.
I think they will 1000% address this with the C7 and start catching up.
I love US cars don't get me wrong
I don't know GM's reason for not making that choice or, at least, not providing it as an option. I know that they have extensive consumer market research involved and the seemingly endless numbers of Vettes sold with these seats suggests that buyers do not mind them, or may even like them.
Generally speaking I noted that what magazine reviewers demand and what people say they would prefer is often NOT what they are willing to purchase. Example being my 3rd gen RX-7. It was everything reviewers ever dreamed of and they responded by praising its light weight, its handling sky high. The car won nearly every stock car road racing and autocross categories of its time. Yet, per the numbers sold, it turned out to be a failure, simply because while people were endlessly impressed with the performance, they were not willing to take up with the overly stiff near-racing suspension for the everyday driving on the typically bad American road surfaces.
I have owned a number of premium brand cars, including two Lamborghinis. My V12 Jarama had nice leather seats, all too slippery and not enough bolstering. So, "blasphemy" according to some, I installed an aftermarket set of velour-cloth seats that held me, like glue. I won all club races in that car.
According to my "not-always-failsafe" memory, the best factory stock seats I ever had in a car came in the early Ford Taurus SHO. Great, well shaped leather seats with electrically adjustable deep side bolsters that would lock you in like you were in a racing seat. Would open up wide for easy getting in and out. The XK/XKR has the adjustable bolsters but, not nearly as deep as the SHO had. I still slide around in them more than I would prefer. Still, with my priorities of today, they are fine for me.
Albert
Last edited by axr6; 08-11-2012 at 02:55 PM.
#63
08-11-2012, 08:49 PM
But we must remember that the XKR is available, albeit for near $5K, with performance seats. These seats are every bit as good as the fibre carbon you spoke of, save the weight. I ordered them and they are great. They are however standard in the XKR-S.
I think both the 'Vette" and the XKR offer the buyer value. Now I've owned both, actually two Corvettes, one Jag. I'm please with the somewhat exclusivity of the Jag, not to mention somewhat classier tasteful package.
But, to each his, or her, own.
I think both the 'Vette" and the XKR offer the buyer value. Now I've owned both, actually two Corvettes, one Jag. I'm please with the somewhat exclusivity of the Jag, not to mention somewhat classier tasteful package.
But, to each his, or her, own.
#64
08-11-2012, 09:47 PM
Veteran Member
But we must remember that the XKR is available, albeit for near $5K, with performance seats. These seats are every bit as good as the fibre carbon you spoke of, save the weight. I ordered them and they are great. They are however standard in the XKR-S.
I think both the 'Vette" and the XKR offer the buyer value. Now I've owned both, actually two Corvettes, one Jag. I'm please with the somewhat exclusivity of the Jag, not to mention somewhat classier tasteful package.
But, to each his, or her, own.
I think both the 'Vette" and the XKR offer the buyer value. Now I've owned both, actually two Corvettes, one Jag. I'm please with the somewhat exclusivity of the Jag, not to mention somewhat classier tasteful package.
But, to each his, or her, own.
I agree with you on the exclusivity of the package, as well as on the classiness. Jaguars are special, emotional, always have been. I have my 2012 XJL for less than two weeks now and the attention and admiration that this big cat collects is unparalleled by other top sedans. I thought that my XK got a lot of attention...
Albert
PS - attached pictures of my 500 HP RX-7 with the "mild" street-able racing seats. Appropriate for a wild canyon racer, hardly for a luxury GT.
Last edited by axr6; 08-11-2012 at 11:04 PM.
#66
08-12-2012, 08:41 AM
Senior Member
As far as I know, the XKR-S seats have only become available recently. I've tried the XKR-S at the JaguarAlive event and the seats were very good but, still not race car seats. Nor would you want true race car seats in your XKR-S. They are rather HARD to get in and out of and no moving around once you're in them. My wife refuses to get into them for the fear of not being able to get out.
I agree with you on the exclusivity of the package, as well as on the classiness. Jaguars are special, emotional, always have been. I have my 2012 XJL for less than two weeks now and the attention and admiration that this big cat collects is unparalleled by other top sedans. I thought that my XK got a lot of attention...
Albert
PS - attached pictures of my 500 HP RX-7 with the "mild" street-able racing seats. Appropriate for a wild canyon racer, hardly for a luxury GT.
I agree with you on the exclusivity of the package, as well as on the classiness. Jaguars are special, emotional, always have been. I have my 2012 XJL for less than two weeks now and the attention and admiration that this big cat collects is unparalleled by other top sedans. I thought that my XK got a lot of attention...
Albert
PS - attached pictures of my 500 HP RX-7 with the "mild" street-able racing seats. Appropriate for a wild canyon racer, hardly for a luxury GT.
Who does the torque of the rotary engine compare to regular V enspired engine?
#67
08-12-2012, 11:21 AM
Veteran Member
Mine dynos around 437 RWHP @ 7400 RPM with torque being 342 @ 6300 RPM. So, nothing like Vette or XKR torque values. But, the RX is a high revving engine, requiring a close ratio transmission for best results. You basically would not even attempt to operate the engine at anything under 6000 RPM for any serious speed trials. In my long years of racing rotary-powered RX-7 street, full blown GT race, as well as open wheeled Formula cars, I generally kept the engines within a 2000 RPM range of operation. For my race cars, using blueprinted 12A rotary racing engines, that meant 7500-9500, while for the larger 13B turbocharged street engines (in my present car) the range would be 6000-8000. If I tried to do what you can do with the Vette or the XKR, dropping the RPMs to 3500, I would have little more than 100 RWHP to work with
.Keeping the RPMs in the proper range would motivate this car plenty. In the GT2 and GT3 classes I easily ran away from Porsche 9xx race variations, even though they ran more carburation (2x36mm vs. my single 34-36 mm choke) than I was allowed. Of course the beauty of the rotary racing engine was its super light weight where I could actually pick up the engine in my arms and move it. Try that with any other high powered racing engine. They also ran on regular fuel, vs. mandatory race fuel for piston engines. Due to the extreme simplicity of the rotary engine, race overhauls costs averaged (I did them myself) about $1500 vs $25,000+ for competitive piston engines. On the average, I would go a dozen racing weekends between engine overhauls. (One time I blew 3 engines in 3 consecutive weekends....arghhhhhh!!!)
Albert
#68
08-12-2012, 11:25 AM
Veteran Member
My STR gets a lot of attention as well. Both positive and negative. On the positive side, I can't go anywhere without someone commenting on how beautiful my STR is. On the negative side, there's always some guy in a Beemer or Benz, (even Mustangs these days), wanting to show his mettle. 99% of the time I ignore them, but for that 1%, lets just say I've sent some folks on their way thoroughly disappointed in what they thought was a fast car. I guess folks don't recognize the "R" badge nor know what it means. :-) At any rate, Jags are somewhat rare. On any given day I will see numerous Beemers and Benzs', a hand full of Porsches', but not Jags. Though I must admit, I'm starting to see XJs' and XF's more often, which is good for the brand IMO. Jaguars still bring out that "wow,what kind of car is that? It's nice!" in people. Or, for those who know even a little about cars, there is the "wow, that Jag is nice!!!". Anyway, they're beautiful cars that you just don't see everyday....or should I say, a dime a dozen.
#69
08-12-2012, 11:27 AM
Veteran Member
I am big fan of that design too. Such beautiful lines to that car; one of the best regular sports car designs of the decade and hasn't become old or dated. I wish they'd go back to that "look" on the next one.
#71
08-12-2012, 01:03 PM
Veteran Member
My STR gets a lot of attention as well. Both positive and negative....
... Jaguars still bring out that "wow,what kind of car is that? It's nice!" in people. Or, for those who know even a little about cars, there is the "wow, that Jag is nice!!!". Anyway, they're beautiful cars that you just don't see everyday....or should I say, a dime a dozen.
... Jaguars still bring out that "wow,what kind of car is that? It's nice!" in people. Or, for those who know even a little about cars, there is the "wow, that Jag is nice!!!". Anyway, they're beautiful cars that you just don't see everyday....or should I say, a dime a dozen.
When I put-on my psychologist hat (which I am NOT but, that never stopped me) here are the differences I see in cars and people who own them.
1) Lexus cars and owners; they are well educated on the JD Power reliability surveys and will settle for nothing less than the most reliable, most meticulously put together machines. Form factor is definitely secondary or tertiary to the knowledge of supreme craftsmanship. Would never consider a Jaguar.
2) German car (BMW, Merc, Audi) owners; deeply believe in the supremacy of German technological prowess. For the required maintenance of such beliefs they actually gain strength from the large numbers of their models around themselves, constantly seeing them coming and going on their local roads. Generally would not look at Jaguars, given the British heritage and past reliability issues.
3) Jaguar owners: Artistic tendencies, prioritizing the art and form of the design. Reliability is obviously a factor but, not THE primary one. Instead of purely rational, Jag owners would be more emotional. They are the ones sneaking out to the garage just to look at the artistic beauty of the shaped metal. They are more individualistic and more self assured and do not need to be re-enforced of their choices by mobs of similar cars and owners.
So, there you have it. I won't say any of the 3 described group is "better" or "worse", just different. Take your pick and fire away...
Albert
Last edited by axr6; 08-12-2012 at 01:32 PM.
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bklynchris (08-12-2012)
#72
08-12-2012, 01:20 PM
Veteran Member
1) Lexus cars and owners; they are well educated on the JD Power reliability surveys and will settle for nothing less than the most reliable, most meticulously put together machines. Form factor is definitely secondary or tertiary to the knowledge of supreme craftsmanship. Would never consider a Jaguar.
#73
08-12-2012, 01:44 PM
Veteran Member
Lexus and Jaguar are polar opposites. Generally people pick one or the other.
Jag owners are closely related to Italian car owners. Italian cars tend to also prioritize art and form and invoke a similar sense of emotionality as Jags do.
Albert
#74
08-12-2012, 03:16 PM
Senior Member
Thanks, Johny. The 3rd gen RX-7 is indeed a beautiful, as well as wickedly fast car, particularly in modified forms. I have see as much as 802 RWHP (rear wheel HP) dynoed in the most extreme examples.
Mine dynos around 437 RWHP @ 7400 RPM with torque being 342 @ 6300 RPM. So, nothing like Vette or XKR torque values. But, the RX is a high revving engine, requiring a close ratio transmission for best results. You basically would not even attempt to operate the engine at anything under 6000 RPM for any serious speed trials. In my long years of racing rotary-powered RX-7 street, full blown GT race, as well as open wheeled Formula cars, I generally kept the engines within a 2000 RPM range of operation. For my race cars, using blueprinted 12A rotary racing engines, that meant 7500-9500, while for the larger 13B turbocharged street engines (in my present car) the range would be 6000-8000. If I tried to do what you can do with the Vette or the XKR, dropping the RPMs to 3500, I would have little more than 100 RWHP to work with.
Keeping the RPMs in the proper range would motivate this car plenty. In the GT2 and GT3 classes I easily ran away from Porsche 9xx race variations, even though they ran more carburation (2x36mm vs. my single 34-36 mm choke) than I was allowed. Of course the beauty of the rotary racing engine was its super light weight where I could actually pick up the engine in my arms and move it. Try that with any other high powered racing engine. They also ran on regular fuel, vs. mandatory race fuel for piston engines. Due to the extreme simplicity of the rotary engine, race overhauls costs averaged (I did them myself) about $1500 vs $25,000+ for competitive piston engines. On the average, I would go a dozen racing weekends between engine overhauls. (One time I blew 3 engines in 3 consecutive weekends....arghhhhhh!!!)
Albert
Mine dynos around 437 RWHP @ 7400 RPM with torque being 342 @ 6300 RPM. So, nothing like Vette or XKR torque values. But, the RX is a high revving engine, requiring a close ratio transmission for best results. You basically would not even attempt to operate the engine at anything under 6000 RPM for any serious speed trials. In my long years of racing rotary-powered RX-7 street, full blown GT race, as well as open wheeled Formula cars, I generally kept the engines within a 2000 RPM range of operation. For my race cars, using blueprinted 12A rotary racing engines, that meant 7500-9500, while for the larger 13B turbocharged street engines (in my present car) the range would be 6000-8000. If I tried to do what you can do with the Vette or the XKR, dropping the RPMs to 3500, I would have little more than 100 RWHP to work with
.Keeping the RPMs in the proper range would motivate this car plenty. In the GT2 and GT3 classes I easily ran away from Porsche 9xx race variations, even though they ran more carburation (2x36mm vs. my single 34-36 mm choke) than I was allowed. Of course the beauty of the rotary racing engine was its super light weight where I could actually pick up the engine in my arms and move it. Try that with any other high powered racing engine. They also ran on regular fuel, vs. mandatory race fuel for piston engines. Due to the extreme simplicity of the rotary engine, race overhauls costs averaged (I did them myself) about $1500 vs $25,000+ for competitive piston engines. On the average, I would go a dozen racing weekends between engine overhauls. (One time I blew 3 engines in 3 consecutive weekends....arghhhhhh!!!)
Albert
#75
08-12-2012, 04:28 PM
Veteran Member
Quite accurate description.
When I put-on my psychologist hat (which I am NOT but, that never stopped me) here are the differences I see in cars and people who own them.
1) Lexus cars and owners; they are well educated on the JD Power reliability surveys and will settle for nothing less than the most reliable, most meticulously put together machines. Form factor is definitely secondary or tertiary to the knowledge of supreme craftsmanship. Would never consider a Jaguar.
2) German car (BMW, Merc, Audi) owners; deeply believe in the supremacy of German technological prowess. For the required maintenance of such beliefs they actually gain strength from the large numbers of their models around themselves, constantly seeing them coming and going on their local roads. Generally would not look at Jaguars, given the British heritage and past reliability issues.
3) Jaguar owners: Artistic tendencies, prioritizing the art and form of the design. Reliability is obviously a factor but, not THE primary one. Instead of purely rational, Jag owners would be more emotional. They are the ones sneaking out to the garage just to look at the artistic beauty of the shaped metal. They are more individualistic and more self assured and do not need to be re-enforced of their choices by mobs of similar cars and owners.
So, there you have it. I won't say any of the 3 described group is "better" or "worse", just different. Take your pick and fire away...
Albert
When I put-on my psychologist hat (which I am NOT but, that never stopped me) here are the differences I see in cars and people who own them.
1) Lexus cars and owners; they are well educated on the JD Power reliability surveys and will settle for nothing less than the most reliable, most meticulously put together machines. Form factor is definitely secondary or tertiary to the knowledge of supreme craftsmanship. Would never consider a Jaguar.
2) German car (BMW, Merc, Audi) owners; deeply believe in the supremacy of German technological prowess. For the required maintenance of such beliefs they actually gain strength from the large numbers of their models around themselves, constantly seeing them coming and going on their local roads. Generally would not look at Jaguars, given the British heritage and past reliability issues.
3) Jaguar owners: Artistic tendencies, prioritizing the art and form of the design. Reliability is obviously a factor but, not THE primary one. Instead of purely rational, Jag owners would be more emotional. They are the ones sneaking out to the garage just to look at the artistic beauty of the shaped metal. They are more individualistic and more self assured and do not need to be re-enforced of their choices by mobs of similar cars and owners.
So, there you have it. I won't say any of the 3 described group is "better" or "worse", just different. Take your pick and fire away...
Albert
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axr6 (08-12-2012)
#76
08-15-2012, 01:59 PM
As with any Jag, in the first place you probably don't get the attention of as many annoying jerks as you would if driving an in-your-face performance car such as a Corvette, Porsche or Ferrari.
If/when you do, the Jag gives you more options this way:
It seems easier to comfortably ignore them without 'losing face'. When driving a Jag it feels like you've already won on other levels.
If you do decide to have some fun andl reciprocate to a challenge, you can do that too. An XKR is enough car to educate most boy racers driving anything not hardcore who it is thats actually the boss. Jags also have a extra rewarding quirk of somehow making that look/feel effortless at the same time.
Last edited by JustNiz; 08-15-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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bklynchris (08-15-2012)
#77
08-15-2012, 03:00 PM
When I put-on my psychologist hat (which I am NOT but, that never stopped me) here are the differences I see in cars and people who own them.
1) Lexus cars and owners; they are well educated on the JD Power reliability surveys and will settle for nothing less than the most reliable, most meticulously put together machines. Form factor is definitely secondary or tertiary to the knowledge of supreme craftsmanship. Would never consider a Jaguar.
2) German car (BMW, Merc, Audi) owners; deeply believe in the supremacy of German technological prowess. For the required maintenance of such beliefs they actually gain strength from the large numbers of their models around themselves, constantly seeing them coming and going on their local roads. Generally would not look at Jaguars, given the British heritage and past reliability issues.
3) Jaguar owners: Artistic tendencies, prioritizing the art and form of the design. Reliability is obviously a factor but, not THE primary one. Instead of purely rational, Jag owners would be more emotional. They are the ones sneaking out to the garage just to look at the artistic beauty of the shaped metal. They are more individualistic and more self assured and do not need to be re-enforced of their choices by mobs of similar cars and owners.
So, there you have it. I won't say any of the 3 described group is "better" or "worse", just different. Take your pick and fire away...
1) Lexus cars and owners; they are well educated on the JD Power reliability surveys and will settle for nothing less than the most reliable, most meticulously put together machines. Form factor is definitely secondary or tertiary to the knowledge of supreme craftsmanship. Would never consider a Jaguar.
2) German car (BMW, Merc, Audi) owners; deeply believe in the supremacy of German technological prowess. For the required maintenance of such beliefs they actually gain strength from the large numbers of their models around themselves, constantly seeing them coming and going on their local roads. Generally would not look at Jaguars, given the British heritage and past reliability issues.
3) Jaguar owners: Artistic tendencies, prioritizing the art and form of the design. Reliability is obviously a factor but, not THE primary one. Instead of purely rational, Jag owners would be more emotional. They are the ones sneaking out to the garage just to look at the artistic beauty of the shaped metal. They are more individualistic and more self assured and do not need to be re-enforced of their choices by mobs of similar cars and owners.
So, there you have it. I won't say any of the 3 described group is "better" or "worse", just different. Take your pick and fire away...
Albert's analysis brought a smile to my face. It would appear I prove the theory wrong. I'm clearly all screwed up and in need of a visit to a psychiatrist!! Anyone recommend one?
I currently own a Lexus RX350, a BMW 328i and Jaguar XK and enjoy all of them for all the reasons Albert mentions. But in reality the RX does it's job very well. The 328 is a great sports sedan and, well, the XK speaks for itself.
Nice post Albert.
Steve
#79
08-15-2012, 04:15 PM
Veteran Member
That would be the Mother of all Guilt Trips!
Actually, not impossible. I worked with a fellow who everyone thought was Catholic because of his obviously Italian name (he was, but...) who married a Jewish girl and converted.
.
Actually, not impossible. I worked with a fellow who everyone thought was Catholic because of his obviously Italian name (he was, but...) who married a Jewish girl and converted.
.
#80
08-15-2012, 04:34 PM
Veteran Member
I've been through the 'performance is everything' phase and one of the nice things about moving on and driving an XKR is the extra freedom it gives you in such situations.
As with any Jag, in the first place you probably don't get the attention of as many annoying jerks as you would if driving an in-your-face performance car such as a Corvette, Porsche or Ferrari.
If/when you do, the Jag gives you more options this way:
It seems easier to comfortably ignore them without 'losing face'. When driving a Jag it feels like you've already won on other levels.
If you do decide to have some fun andl reciprocate to a challenge, you can do that too. An XKR is enough car to educate most boy racers driving anything not hardcore who it is thats actually the boss. Jags also have a extra rewarding quirk of somehow making that look/feel effortless at the same time.
As with any Jag, in the first place you probably don't get the attention of as many annoying jerks as you would if driving an in-your-face performance car such as a Corvette, Porsche or Ferrari.
If/when you do, the Jag gives you more options this way:
It seems easier to comfortably ignore them without 'losing face'. When driving a Jag it feels like you've already won on other levels.
If you do decide to have some fun andl reciprocate to a challenge, you can do that too. An XKR is enough car to educate most boy racers driving anything not hardcore who it is thats actually the boss. Jags also have a extra rewarding quirk of somehow making that look/feel effortless at the same time.