^What!? People love retro styling. VW Beetle, Mini, BMW Z8, Camaro, Challenger, Mustang off the top of my head.

 

People love retro styling, maybe. But reliance on retro-styling is what almost destroyed the Jaguar brand. X-Type, S-Type, XJ8, etc.

 

Very true!!! People's reactions so far have been, as if my Jaguar is a Bentley.

That is why i feel the F type will do so well. One of the most important elements is the attraction towards a car. It's all emotion and maybe very little logic. And, that's all Jaguar has been about - really connecting with their target market.
Porsche may perform better, but that won't matter much. The styling isn't going to warm anyone's most aggressive part of the brain.

 

And, that's all Jaguar has been about - really connecting with their target market....

What market? My prediction is the end of Jaguar before 2020.

(I'd also add Volvo, Suzuki, and Mitsubishi to the list)(in North America)

There... I said it.

 

Is that why JLR can't pump out enough cars to keep up the demand for Range Rovers and Evoque's specifically?

Is that why Porsche delayed production on Macan, because they found Evoque too much of a threat?


I don't think so.

 

I would've made the same prediction that you did, if it hadn't been for the latest three models that Jaguar has created (XK, XJ, XF) and the upcoming F-Type.

 

Agreed!
lololololol. Who have you been talking to?

 

WTF!! I have been hoping and excited about Jag getting serious about building a sports car again. Not just a sports car but one to rival the 911. I was very excited about that and have been saving my pennies. So what do they do? They build one that is 600 lbs more than the 911. They were bragging about building a sports car to rival the 911 and then they make it 600 lbs heavier! Damn I'm pissed! My guess is it will be about 200 lbs lighter than the XK, why bother I'll just keep my XK. As far as the 911 being tail happy - try driving an XK! I heard Porsche took care of that tendancy years ago, Jag hasn't. Jag was all puffed up about how they were going to rival the 911 then they say - well not really but it will be good. I'll just keep my XKRS that scares the crap out of my with it's snap oversteer. Jag saying that Porsch has oversteer problems really is the kettle calling the pot black.

 

I am perplexed as to the fact that F types are supposed to be in showrooms in the next month or two with deliveries being scheduled (at least according to a forum member who has ordered one) for June and July and not one has made it into the hands of any of the major car magazines for test drives or reviews. I find that incredible this close to release. Outside of Jaguar sourced test drives, there is no first hand driving experiences with the car. Once the reviews are in, we'll all know pretty quickly how competitive the F type is going to be with the likes of Porsches etc...It seems to be that Jaguar knows the importance of this model's success, and I'm confident it will be a world class competitor, but for now, we're just all going to have to wait. The scary part is that if they're not putting cars in automobile magazines at this late date (in relation to its release), it may be an indication that they still have some "bugs" to work out. The old adage about not buying a first year model may have some "legs."

 

You might laugh, but you definitely get that sort of reaction from women. Last week, one of my older female coworkers finally saw my car in the flesh (I've been trying to hide it in the corner of our office garage), and she pretty much ran up and down the corridors of our office shouting, "OH MY GOD! Have you seen Alan's new car?! He has this beautiful new JAAAG! I wish I were that rich!!!"

I can't imagine having the same sort of reaction for a Merc, BMW or Audi. Maybe a Porsche.

 

I, too, think it's a little concerning! Plus I'm eager to see what they say!

 

I too find it odd that none of the auto rags have road test the F-type yet. That could be good or bad. For sure it's intentional.

 

Car isn't being delivered until end of July, possibly early August. I have read a few sites where they are saying they will be test driving it in April. The amount of cars that each dealer is being allocated at initial launch is so few that it seems most are already accounted for so I am less concerned about the timing of the review. I don't think the 600 lbs is that big a deal when you consider the power advantage over a 911S. I guess we will have to wait and see what the reviews say but my guess is that it will be reviewed quite highly and probably be considered a small notch below the 911 in the track dept but a step up in looks and creature comforts...the cool thing is they are going to develop an R version and a coupe in the next 1-2 yrs so it sounds like there is room to build on this line...

 

Maybe in Virginia. BTW MERC and Audi actually make cars that solicit that response worldwide and deserve it. R8, SLS....


Your wrong. The styling of those cars made them a success. What destroyed the brand is there cheap build quality and horrible reliability. I'll attribute that to ford. This new line of cars made by the this Indian company tata are horribly styled and it shows in sales. The S-type, XJ8, and Xk8 sales slaughterer their new replacement cars sales. I won't include the X-type which was Jaguars best selling model at the time. The S-type over its first 5 years has out sold the xf 3 to 1 over its first 5 years. Those cars really looked like Jaguars and I feel like these Indian cars embrace someone else's design philosophy and tries to add jaguar styling cues. One of the biggest features that I associate with English design is the the sloping trunk line. Its still present in Bentley and Rolls, look at any of em. Jaguar used to have it and they looked like a sister brand to those cars and that's saying something. Where this feature on the new ones? The xk looks like a Hyundai and whats with the xk-rs? It is hands down the most boy racerish car I've ever seen from a "luxury manufacturer." The F-type imo is the only car Tata has gotten right from a design standpoint. I will say this though, its going to be priced to high. Just because it competes with the 911 doesn't make it one.

 

Porsche never took care of the tail happy tendencies. Simply, because they could NOT. It is not possible to get rid of that tendency when the heavy engine/transaxle is hanging out behind the rear wheel, causing a pendulum effect during cornering. They can only band-aid it with larger tires, electronic compensation, etc. In their truly successful 911 race cars, they actually moved the engines into the mid-engine position. Unless you were involved in racing, as a spectator you never knew that. That heavy tail bias was the reason why on the race tracks stock 4 cylinder 924s and 944s actually beat the 911s in lap times. Few were ever crazy (or skilled) enough to drive the 911 at the edge of the handling cliff.

As to the XKRS oversteer; I own a NA XK which has no oversteer tendencies, what so ever. Just the opposite, it understeers far too much for my taste, which the factories build into stock cars because it is safe for a novice driver. I had only driven the XKRS in a few laps of autocrossing and the basic attitude was still understeer that you could change on a moment's notice with the application of the throttle. I deliberately hung the tail out in some corners and found absolutely nothing alarming about the handling. You just have to treat that throttle is if you are stepping on eggs!!! Remember the amount of power it transmits!!! I am firmly convinced that today's supercar power levels are way-way over the abilities of most drivers whom never consistently obtained and maintained the required driving skills.

600 lbs is a HUGE deal when it comes to accelerating, braking and cornering. Try tossing your car around a track or winding road, then, place 4 adults in the car and do it again. The car will feel like an absolute PIG with 600 lbs more. The power difference will not even come close to making up for it. When I raced SCCA GT2 classes, I drove a Mazda race car that had 285 RWHP and weighted around 2100 lbs. In my run group was an "unlimited class" ex-professional Trans-Am Ford that had 803 dyno-d RWHP but, weighted 3400+ lbs. I ALWAYS out-qualified him, he always blew me off the starting line and I always re-passed him either into the first turn or, if I did not feel like risking the quick pass, into the second. He had to start braking 200' before me following a high speed straight. By lap 20 I lapped him, every time.

Like I said in my post above, where the Jag might make up some or all of the difference is with the "feeling of confidence" factor. If the car is well set up, it can be very easy to drive near the limit even for novice drivers. (Example: the heavy Nissan GTR). Thus, the average driver may be able to go faster in such car than in a 911 that makes the hair stand up on your back when you trail-brake and enter into a corner near max speeds.

Albert

 

Of course, this is a subject you can argue until you're blue in the face. The fact that even the absolute ugliest cars find buyers testify to the variance in what people find "good looking". Very subjective. I think that if you dislike the styling of the late XK and XJ series Jaguars you will find yourself in the very tiny minority on this forum. I own a '08 XK and a 2012 XJL and find their styling beautiful, often reflected back by admiring comments from the average motorists I meet.

Just like with hair styling, clothing, furniture etc. auto design follows the dictates of present day "fashion" trends. Sloping trunk designs are so yesterday, regardless if they looked good or not back in their days. The London Taxis have wonderfully sloping trunks but, who would want to drive a car looking like that today?

Where I definitely disagree with you is with the role of Ford in Jaguar. I owned a Jag before the Ford ownership and it was the absolute worst quality car I had ever had the misfortune of owning. Mine was NOT the exception. That is when Jaguar collected that terrible reputation that it still carries on its shoulders. When Ford took over the quality had improved exponentially. I now have had 3 late model Jaguars from both the Ford and Tata era and the quality is just fine. No significant issues with any of these cars. There is always room for improvement; we could get better electronics, etc. but, altogether I could not be happier with my late (2005, 2008, 2012) cars. They look special, perform well, they make me feel special driving them and they are reliable. What more is there to ask? (Ok, like I said, there are a few things...)

On the F-type; I agree with you. The pricing is too high at $92K, + options, for the V8 S model. I think it should have come in about $15K lower.

Albert

 

The styling argument re: modern day Jags is just a matter of personal taste...my 08 XK is a stunner imo and I get numerous thumbs up as I drive by people...for a 6 almost 7 yr old design, I think it is classic elegance combined with modern architecture. I love the XF as an alternative to the bland 5 series and the new E class. The issue with the sales of the car probably exist more with the fact that until now...there was no V6 or all wheel drive which put.it at a competitive disadvantage compared to the others. I guarantee the bigger sales on the E and the 5 series were for the 6 cylinder cars vs their higher end versions...the same will hold true for the F Type...it is very expensive, however, if it is even close to a 911S in performance, it becomes a good buy. They will sell alot more of the V6 and V6S versions which will be closely priced to a loaded Boxster S which IMO is not nearly the looker that this car is and is all too common on the road. I look forward to having my new V8S and the exclusivity and beauty that comes along with it.

 

I'm not bashing the quality of Merc, Audi or BMW, but I see them EVERYWHERE. People aren't so interested when you own a car that everyone else does. You have to get an AMG/M/S model before anyone even notices. And it's not like I'm living in bumf*ck, I'm living right across the river from DC, so there a good number of nice cars here.

I agree with you on the XKR-S being too boy-racerish. But I think the current XK is at the end of its design cycle and they had to do something to keep people's interests up.

I know you say I'm wrong, but I just don't think Jaguar would be coming back into the picture if they had made even more retro-looking designs. Jaguars were meant to be modern. That's what they were in the 50s and 60s, why not now? In a way, Jaguar is just now finally going back to its roots by creating sleek, elegant, beautiful and most importantly modern designs. And it's paying off. The profits show it.

Frankly, the fact that we can even mention Porsche and Jaguar in the same sentence is a sign of how much Jaguar has improved in the last decade.

 

Obviously you know nothing about Jaguar's history. It was Ford actually who put some reliability into those cars.

 

Sloping trunk lines are old but still look great on every Bentley and Rolls. Have you seen the new Wraith? I guess I'm really big on heritage. I mean how dated is the 911's design,the BMW Kidney or an Aston Martin grill shape?

Your 100% right, Ford did improve reliability but it still wasn't on par with any other manufacturer. They were still horrible comparatively. Easily the most unreliable luxury brand at that point if not the most unreliable brand period. I mean the V8 cars may have been the most unreliable V8 cars in history. Think about how fast reliability improved when BMW took over Land Rover. BMW had M60 powered Range rovers and m52s in Disco's. BMW put there proven engines in these cars and the reliability improved in the first generation under their control. I know these cars had there faults still but they didn't sit in dead last. I would much rather ford to put a 4.6 or 5.4 in my xk8 rather than to make this new hybrid motor from 2 companies with a transmission made my Mercedes. I will attribute bad build quality to ford. Has any one actually sat in and took in an x-type. It has to be the cheapest luxury car I have ever drove. I guess that's whats to be expected when you base a car on a Ford Mondeo. Every Japanese company got it right when building a luxury car on cheaper platform, let alone VW/Audi. How did Ford/Jaguar get it so wrong. I've never driven an S-type, but I assume its similar.



All very good points, but, they are not selling nearly as well as they did in the late 90's/early 2000's. Everybody loves being different. If these cars looked as good as you guys think they look people would flock them, they're not.