Its Tune, Dyno and Quarter Mile Friday
#41
03-16-2014, 09:43 AM
Veteran Member
In my case I am simply trying to warn people to the possible consequences to tracking cars.
There is a definite line in the sand between just tracking a car for having fun, or getting carried away by competitive pressures and end up all out racing. I drove tons of canyon races on public roads at insanely illegal speeds, winning almost all of them against exotic cars and superbikes. Not a single crash, or even a spin, simply because I always kept something in reserve for the unexpected. On the race track with my beautiful street cars, 2 crashes, one car totalled, the other permanently screwed. So the verdict for me; no nice street cars for the track. (BTW - no more banzai racing on public roads either. Been there, done that, survived that).
Nobody drives their street cars to the track thinking that they might crash and have to worry about getting home and hauling the wreck away. Those things supposed to happen to "other" people. Yet, it happens to all too many people. Ngarara, I remember watching your video footage from the Nurburgring track as you were cruising around and seeing some crashed cars in the process. Yes, sh*t happens on tracks. So, if you are disciplined enough to stay out of crowds and let those pimple-faced kids in their beat up, yet built-up Civics and WRXs to blow the doors off your XKR on the track than you can disregard my warnings.
One more advice for tracks: stay FAR behind when following other cars, particularly ones with soft slick or R-compound tires, as they pick up off-the-track gravel into their hot rubber and at the next session will shoot that gravel to anything that follows them, basically gravel blasting any paint job. Just look at the front end of most racing cars.
Other than the above; good luck and keep it safe out there.
There is a definite line in the sand between just tracking a car for having fun, or getting carried away by competitive pressures and end up all out racing. I drove tons of canyon races on public roads at insanely illegal speeds, winning almost all of them against exotic cars and superbikes. Not a single crash, or even a spin, simply because I always kept something in reserve for the unexpected. On the race track with my beautiful street cars, 2 crashes, one car totalled, the other permanently screwed. So the verdict for me; no nice street cars for the track. (BTW - no more banzai racing on public roads either. Been there, done that, survived that).
Nobody drives their street cars to the track thinking that they might crash and have to worry about getting home and hauling the wreck away. Those things supposed to happen to "other" people. Yet, it happens to all too many people. Ngarara, I remember watching your video footage from the Nurburgring track as you were cruising around and seeing some crashed cars in the process. Yes, sh*t happens on tracks. So, if you are disciplined enough to stay out of crowds and let those pimple-faced kids in their beat up, yet built-up Civics and WRXs to blow the doors off your XKR on the track than you can disregard my warnings.
One more advice for tracks: stay FAR behind when following other cars, particularly ones with soft slick or R-compound tires, as they pick up off-the-track gravel into their hot rubber and at the next session will shoot that gravel to anything that follows them, basically gravel blasting any paint job. Just look at the front end of most racing cars.
Other than the above; good luck and keep it safe out there.
Albert:
All EXCELLENT points.......and if the intent to drive the XKR is at speeds of 140 to 160MPH on a road course, add in that the car should be equipped with a safety approved roll bar, 6 point safety harness for the driver, and the driver should be wearing a fire proof safety drivers suit, racing shoes and a Snell approved helmet. At 140 to 160 MPH, when a driver loses control due to spin, the driver is there for the ride with the car.
Been there, done that.
If your really serious about buying a track car for road racing consider spending $50,000 to $60,000 and enter the Formula F1000 class.
If your unfamiliar with it, just google ...Formula F1000.....I guarantee you will never enjoy a ride better than this. Not even a Lambo can provide the "rush" you get driving one of these cars.
Be safe Max.........and have fun. I totally understand the thrill.
Last edited by richzak; 03-16-2014 at 09:59 AM.
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axr6 (03-16-2014)
#42
03-16-2014, 09:57 AM
In my case I am simply trying to warn people to the possible consequences to tracking cars.
There is a definite line in the sand between just tracking a car for having fun, or getting carried away by competitive pressures and end up all out racing. I drove tons of canyon races on public roads at insanely illegal speeds, winning almost all of them against exotic cars and superbikes. Not a single crash, or even a spin, simply because I always kept something in reserve for the unexpected. On the race track with my beautiful street cars, 2 crashes, one car totalled, the other permanently screwed. So the verdict for me; no nice street cars for the track. (BTW - no more banzai racing on public roads either. Been there, done that, survived that).
Nobody drives their street cars to the track thinking that they might crash and have to worry about getting home and hauling the wreck away. Those things supposed to happen to "other" people. Yet, it happens to all too many people. Ngarara, I remember watching your video footage from the Nurburgring track as you were cruising around and seeing some crashed cars in the process. Yes, sh*t happens on tracks. So, if you are disciplined enough to stay out of crowds and let those pimple-faced kids in their beat up, yet built-up Civics and WRXs to blow the doors off your XKR on the track than you can disregard my warnings.
One more advice for tracks: stay FAR behind when following other cars, particularly ones with soft slick or R-compound tires, as they pick up off-the-track gravel into their hot rubber and at the next session will shoot that gravel to anything that follows them, basically gravel blasting any paint job. Just look at the front end of most racing cars.
Other than the above; good luck and keep it safe out there.
There is a definite line in the sand between just tracking a car for having fun, or getting carried away by competitive pressures and end up all out racing. I drove tons of canyon races on public roads at insanely illegal speeds, winning almost all of them against exotic cars and superbikes. Not a single crash, or even a spin, simply because I always kept something in reserve for the unexpected. On the race track with my beautiful street cars, 2 crashes, one car totalled, the other permanently screwed. So the verdict for me; no nice street cars for the track. (BTW - no more banzai racing on public roads either. Been there, done that, survived that).
Nobody drives their street cars to the track thinking that they might crash and have to worry about getting home and hauling the wreck away. Those things supposed to happen to "other" people. Yet, it happens to all too many people. Ngarara, I remember watching your video footage from the Nurburgring track as you were cruising around and seeing some crashed cars in the process. Yes, sh*t happens on tracks. So, if you are disciplined enough to stay out of crowds and let those pimple-faced kids in their beat up, yet built-up Civics and WRXs to blow the doors off your XKR on the track than you can disregard my warnings.
One more advice for tracks: stay FAR behind when following other cars, particularly ones with soft slick or R-compound tires, as they pick up off-the-track gravel into their hot rubber and at the next session will shoot that gravel to anything that follows them, basically gravel blasting any paint job. Just look at the front end of most racing cars.
Other than the above; good luck and keep it safe out there.
I'm with you on tracking a streetcar, you have to leave your ego in check and stay away from other cars. I won't go out on the track with dedicated race cars due to the "sand blasting" and always stay away from other cars. I tend to race a clock and not other cars unless I'm in a spec series which I would never be in the XKR. I'm probably buying a Caterham for serious track use. I keep it at 90% most of the time unless the car feels good any I see no one around me I go for a hard lap or two to see how the car feels at the limit.
My plan for now is a 4-6 week XKR track schedule mixed with advanced racing classes at Sebring, Seca, Road America, and maybe a few others. That way I get my racing fix, don't beat up my car too much while working on fixing my bad habits.
I'm glad I tracked my car yesterday as next week I'll be taking the advanced Class at the Jaguar Performance Academy and can tell the instructors exactly what I need to work on.
One thing that told me its "ok" to track the XKR is the Jag event. I was beating the crap out of XKRs that had 5k miles of track use on them and they still felt solid. That's testament to the cars design and I think if you watch yourself on the track, stay away from the kids, and take care of your car. It will get new brakes this week, and probably an oil change to be safe.
#43
03-16-2014, 10:34 AM
Congratulations, Max...and I'm really glad to see another XKR being tracked! I know you bought the car with this use in mind, as did I, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I have. This really is one of those cars that is as enjoyable on the track as it is refined on the street. And it's amazing just how effortless and reliable it is to track.
I think it might help some to understand if you explained why you chose the XKR to use for the odd track day sometime. My new car is being built starting this coming week, and I've felt a real sadness as the time draws closer to part with the XKR, and knowing I won't be able to track it again. My fondest memories of two years with the XKR are of weekends driving to, around, and back from the track, and one other separate weekend away with my wife. Yes, it was also lovely to use the odd time, and to mostly stare at in the garage...but the epic times were all at the track. I'd have never let it go if it had the manual gearbox I've found I don't want to be without, and might have eventually done some of the mods you're doing.
Hopefully you'll also minimize your risks with a safe attitude, avoid the "Red Mist", and be selective about the events and participants you run with. I'll be following your XKR track adventures with great interest and envy. Enjoy!
Oh, and hopefully you'll find your brakes last longer in the future as you become more acquainted with the car and any new tracks you're running as you'll likely become less hard on them.
Bruce
I think it might help some to understand if you explained why you chose the XKR to use for the odd track day sometime. My new car is being built starting this coming week, and I've felt a real sadness as the time draws closer to part with the XKR, and knowing I won't be able to track it again. My fondest memories of two years with the XKR are of weekends driving to, around, and back from the track, and one other separate weekend away with my wife. Yes, it was also lovely to use the odd time, and to mostly stare at in the garage...but the epic times were all at the track. I'd have never let it go if it had the manual gearbox I've found I don't want to be without, and might have eventually done some of the mods you're doing.
Hopefully you'll also minimize your risks with a safe attitude, avoid the "Red Mist", and be selective about the events and participants you run with. I'll be following your XKR track adventures with great interest and envy. Enjoy!
Oh, and hopefully you'll find your brakes last longer in the future as you become more acquainted with the car and any new tracks you're running as you'll likely become less hard on them.
Bruce
I think its FAR more dangerous to try to even come close to the limits of this car on the street, you can lose your license(happened before) but most importantly you and OTHERS can die. On the street you have a chance of some moron hitting you and causing a totaled car then on the track. Look at what happened to me Monday. I had a guy hit me and just run off. I see a wreck a day on the way to and from work.
For me the choice is simple take your car to the track knowing the dangers and mitigate them as much as possible. There are far fewer dangerous variables on a track then on the street, but its not a free for all, you still need to follow a strict set of rules and leave your ego at home. This way you can enjoy the performance the car has to offer but do understand that you will have expenses other than the 15k mile service.
Thats just my two cents on topic, and I can't own a performance car without exploring its limits. I've been a petrol head from the day I was born and the track is the place to explore those limits. If you gave me Prius I'd find its limits in 5 seconds its what I do
. When I was younger when it snowed the first thing I did was find a parking lot to slide in. Trust me I learned the hard way, nothing bad ever happened but I rather "clean up" a car for the track then deal with lawyers, courts, tickets, insurance, and a tarnished reputation.One other thing to note is if you can handle your car well at 150MPH, incidents in the road at 80MPH happen at half time. You don't panic and everything feels like its in slow motion, while you do your best to drive through the situation. Having a racing background has saved my *** on the street dozens of times. On one occasion I was in a group of cars going 80ish on 95 north, when all of a sudden as Escalade that was leading the group slammed into the wall rolled over and consumed every car except mine. Part of that was luck, then part of that was me not panicking and finding a way out of the mess. I had a car full of screaming people, while I never lifted and maneuvered through the carnage and pulled to the side to check on everyone. If I did not have the track background I would have panicked slammed on the brakes and been IN the wreck.
Incidents like that and just me being a total car FANTATIC will keep me on the track where its safer to explore the and learn the limits of your car.
Beyond all of the "car" aspects you meet some really good people and its just another way to socialize and meet new people. I rather go to a track day then stand in a bar drinking all night. In Miami the cost of both activities is the same, but I'm much happier spending that time and money on the doing something I love.
When I finished the day at the track first thing I did was drop it off to get detailed... Good as new
Last edited by MaximA; 03-16-2014 at 10:55 AM.
#44
03-16-2014, 01:49 PM
Veteran Member
Ngarara, I remember watching your video footage from the Nurburgring track as you were cruising around and seeing some crashed cars in the process. Yes, sh*t happens on tracks. So, if you are disciplined enough to stay out of crowds and let those pimple-faced kids in their beat up, yet built-up Civics and WRXs to blow the doors off your XKR on the track than you can disregard my warnings.
#45
03-16-2014, 01:56 PM
Yeah, I know my limits, which is why I was doing 10 minute laps on the 'Ring. I am only interested in road-car track days, and I get out of the way on the nutters. I'm there to have fun, and enjoy exploring the car's limits - there's plenty of people out there faster/crazier than me.
#47
03-16-2014, 04:20 PM
Veteran Member
You all do realize that everybody drives faster to the Ring and without a helmet than you actually drive on the Ring.
While I lived in Germany it never occurred to me "wanting" to drive the Ring. Now living here in the US that is a different story and I have only hit 175MPh as the runway on a closed airport ran out on this continent.
While I lived in Germany it never occurred to me "wanting" to drive the Ring. Now living here in the US that is a different story and I have only hit 175MPh as the runway on a closed airport ran out on this continent.
#48
03-16-2014, 05:02 PM
Veteran Member
Albert:
All EXCELLENT points.......and if the intent to drive the XKR is at speeds of 140 to 160MPH on a road course, add in that the car should be equipped with a safety approved roll bar, 6 point safety harness for the driver, and the driver should be wearing a fire proof safety drivers suit, racing shoes and a Snell approved helmet. At 140 to 160 MPH, when a driver loses control due to spin, the driver is there for the ride with the car.
Been there, done that.
If your really serious about buying a track car for road racing consider spending $50,000 to $60,000 and enter the Formula F1000 class.
If your unfamiliar with it, just google ...Formula F1000.....I guarantee you will never enjoy a ride better than this. Not even a Lambo can provide the "rush" you get driving one of these cars.
Be safe Max.........and have fun. I totally understand the thrill.
All EXCELLENT points.......and if the intent to drive the XKR is at speeds of 140 to 160MPH on a road course, add in that the car should be equipped with a safety approved roll bar, 6 point safety harness for the driver, and the driver should be wearing a fire proof safety drivers suit, racing shoes and a Snell approved helmet. At 140 to 160 MPH, when a driver loses control due to spin, the driver is there for the ride with the car.
Been there, done that.
If your really serious about buying a track car for road racing consider spending $50,000 to $60,000 and enter the Formula F1000 class.
If your unfamiliar with it, just google ...Formula F1000.....I guarantee you will never enjoy a ride better than this. Not even a Lambo can provide the "rush" you get driving one of these cars.
Be safe Max.........and have fun. I totally understand the thrill.
I know that Formula cars are the ultimate racing cars but, after having raced both I preferred the somewhat slower GT cars, exactly for the increased levels of safety. I could not afford the increased safety of a full carbon fiber chassied race car and the tube-chassis of my Formula Mazda would not give me nearly the same degree of crash protection as a GT roll cage.
#49
03-16-2014, 06:44 PM
Veteran Member
Agreed, as my autobahn YouTube will testify - on the other hand, they don't have a Schwedenkreuz or Adenauer-Forst on the 'bahn. I'd love to see what the car could do down the Nordschleife main straight, but of course that's blocked off for terroristfahrten.
#50
03-16-2014, 08:38 PM
I'm curious why the AFR becomes so rich at higher rpm after being consistent through the mid-range on both pre and post tune plots. Your later comments about over-heating on the track is leading me to think that the ECU may be reacting to "out of range" sensor input, and switching to a rich fuel map to protect the engine by fuel dumping. I'd wondered if that was the case on another Eurocharge tune I saw, with the limited airflow on the dyno vs airflow of driving raising either or both intake air temps or coolant temps that are cooled by the radiator. Your track use at higher power levels on a hot day under track loads may have taxed the cooling system even more than the dyno and thrown the overheating warning. Ot maybe it's related to the higher boost from the pulley, and impacting both pre and post tunes.
Another possibility is that the tune was purposely made very rich so excess fuel would reduce combustion chamber temps, EGT temps, or reduce knock. Either way, running pig rich indicates a problem, or what looks to me like a bandaid fix of one.
It would be nice to know what exactly is the cause of what we can see as an increase in octane or cooling may be the solution, and/or allow for more high rpm power or to avoid overheating.
Also, do you know is the plot includes a 3rd to 4th gear shift.
Bruce
#51
03-16-2014, 08:49 PM
I just returned from a track day and this car is a BEAST! The suspension is nearly 95% sorted and I was hitting 150-160 on the back straight of PBIR.
I toasted my rotors a put a bit of wear on the tires but this tune is FAST across the entire powerband. It was around 85 track temp and the car overheated once on the second run due to heat soak from the first run. The light went away in 5 seconds so I short shifted a lap and then never saw it again.
I toasted my rotors a put a bit of wear on the tires but this tune is FAST across the entire powerband. It was around 85 track temp and the car overheated once on the second run due to heat soak from the first run. The light went away in 5 seconds so I short shifted a lap and then never saw it again.
Were you able to do an easy cool-down lap at the end of the first session, and then let the engine continue to run in the paddock before turning it off? Raise the engine hood to help cool? Wondering if the over-heating could be avoided with a more effective cool down.
Also, what was the condition of the toasted rotors, and if you were running stock pads. Did you have previous track days on the rotors, and how worn were the pads at the end of the day?
Bruce
#52
03-16-2014, 09:02 PM
Veteran Member
...I'm curious why the AFR becomes so rich at higher rpm after being consistent through the mid-range on both pre and post tune plots. Your later comments about over-heating on the track is leading me to think that the ECU may be reacting to "out of range" sensor input, and switching to a rich fuel map to protect the engine by fuel dumping.
Bruce
Bruce
#53
03-16-2014, 09:16 PM
That was back in the day. Things are different now. Max might want to consider a professional's advice.
#54
03-16-2014, 10:03 PM
what's up mike. looking forward to it. take a good look at that dyno sheet max posted. huge hp and torque gains throughout the whole band. wonder what viezu thinks about that chart. don't want to hijack this thread so I will be sending you an email
#55
03-16-2014, 10:05 PM
I just returned from a track day and this car is a BEAST! The suspension is nearly 95% sorted and I was hitting 150-160 on the back straight of PBIR.
I toasted my rotors a put a bit of wear on the tires but this tune is FAST across the entire powerband. It was around 85 track temp and the car overheated once on the second run due to heat soak from the first run. The light went away in 5 seconds so I short shifted a lap and then never saw it again.
I toasted my rotors a put a bit of wear on the tires but this tune is FAST across the entire powerband. It was around 85 track temp and the car overheated once on the second run due to heat soak from the first run. The light went away in 5 seconds so I short shifted a lap and then never saw it again.
#56
03-16-2014, 10:19 PM
Max, your power level looks very impressive...I'm sure you're pleased!
I'm curious why the AFR becomes so rich at higher rpm after being consistent through the mid-range on both pre and post tune plots. Your later comments about over-heating on the track is leading me to think that the ECU may be reacting to "out of range" sensor input, and switching to a rich fuel map to protect the engine by fuel dumping.
Bruce
I'm curious why the AFR becomes so rich at higher rpm after being consistent through the mid-range on both pre and post tune plots. Your later comments about over-heating on the track is leading me to think that the ECU may be reacting to "out of range" sensor input, and switching to a rich fuel map to protect the engine by fuel dumping.
Bruce
#58
03-17-2014, 09:03 AM
Yes, the safety equipment saved my butt several times, having my GT class race car catching fire and burning to the ground twice (actually, 3 fires). Surviving an 80 MPH direct head-on hit against a concrete wall at Laguna Seca Turn-6, full credit given to the roll cage.
I know that Formula cars are the ultimate racing cars but, after having raced both I preferred the somewhat slower GT cars, exactly for the increased levels of safety. I could not afford the increased safety of a full carbon fiber chassied race car and the tube-chassis of my Formula Mazda would not give me nearly the same degree of crash protection as a GT roll cage.
I know that Formula cars are the ultimate racing cars but, after having raced both I preferred the somewhat slower GT cars, exactly for the increased levels of safety. I could not afford the increased safety of a full carbon fiber chassied race car and the tube-chassis of my Formula Mazda would not give me nearly the same degree of crash protection as a GT roll cage.
I plan on getting a full caged real race car, I'm just in the process of deciding what to get. I'd like to stay in a GT class as they are my favorite to drive and I love they looks.. I'm just trying to find one that won't break the bank and I may even go with a C6 Corvette as I can drive it to the track.
#59
03-17-2014, 09:07 AM
So back to the tune so we ended up with 531HP and 505TQ after the tune running 11lbs of max boost. I have to say I'm very happy with those results, and Just spoke with Jerry and he said with the cats and BMC filters I won't need a retune but I'll dyno the car afterwards to see what kind of increase I get and see what the AFR numbers look like.
#60
03-17-2014, 09:14 AM
In case anyone was wondering if someone touched the Dyno, I sat right beside the dyno computer the entire time and other then resetting it for another run not a single parameter was touched. I even reset it myself a few times so Nemo from RageTek didn't have to get out of the car.